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phrodo41
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Re: What happened to the human race?

I agree w/ whoever said Dumbledore woulda been an Obama supporter. Go Barak!!
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Mollywobbles
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

Phrodo, we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I prefer to look at the series of books as complete-anything else is just an ongoing soap opera. Of course, if she choses to write another book in the series, that would be a completely different story. With that in mind, I will simply ignore further comments from the author, and enjoy what she has written, viewed through my own perspective-I am not looking for any authoritative godlike comments from her, I will leave that to others.

Your comment about having been a bible major gives me some insight into how you read. I was a medieval history major which inevitably involved some study of various religions and rubbing elbows with some theology majors. It has been my experience that if you put two theologians in a room and ask them to interpret the same passage, you will get twelve different answers, again because the individuals bring certain different cultural and historical viewpoints to the subject. This is only natural, it doesn't make one interpretation correct and the other incorrect, just different.

I am certainly not disputing her right to comment in any way, on her characters, naturally, they are her creations, and she has been innundated with requests for information. I simply retain my right to ignore any supplementary information of a significant nature as it interfers with my reading enjoyment. In this sense, I would prefer that she gives away the puppies. I delicately refrain from completing the rest of that saying, although I'm thinking it.

Anyway, it's always interesting reading your posts Phrodo, please don't think I'm having a go at you personally, we obviously just have different opinions :smileyhappy:




phrodo41 wrote:

Mollywobbles wrote:
Phrodo, the point of disagreement, or discussion rather, relates to the fact that the author is messing with my characters after the fact. Yes, presumptuous as that sounds, these are MY characters. They stepped out of her books into my imagination. MY Harry has green eyes, MY Ron has red hair, and all the information given about them in the books has been incorporated into my imaginary characters. But there were many things unsaid, there was plenty of room for speculation and imagination, and MY characters may have evolved quite differently from the author's, regardless of her truckload of backstory.

Dudley is a good example. MY Dudley would never have shaken hands with Harry. My Dudley would have stalked off scowling, without a word, or, more likely, given Harry one final punch in the nose. When I read the scene in DH, I said to my imaginary character-why Dudders, there's hope for you yet!", and that bit of the story completed my Dudley, there was no more written about him, no more to learn, his part was over.

There were a great many revelations about Dumbledore in DH, and many of them I didn't like. I was quite distressed with what I still think of as Dumbledore's manipulations, and I resisted having to incorporate in my Dumbledore a dark, devious and secretive side. Yet, there was the evidence, clearly stated, there was no escaping it.

Throughout the series, I had never given a single thought to Dumbledore's sexual orientation, it simply didn't occur to me. He was, as someone else put it, benignly asexual. After the series, MY Dumbledore was complete, albeit a much more flawed imaginary character than I had envisaged up to book 7.

Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is.

Perhaps other readers wondered about Dumbledore's sexual orientation. In that case,THEIR imaginary Dumbledore could be gay. Mine isn't.

The author is of course free to say whatever she wants about her characters-I just don't intend to listen, because my characters are complete. There are millions of Harry Potters, and Dumbledores, out there, one for each reader-and that's just the way it should be.



phrodo41 wrote:
Molly,

remind me what it is we're disagreeing on here? Does it bother you that that she reveals the backstory she wrote for a character without spelling it out in the main story? Is that because you feel this is inappropriate for children's literature, or somehow detracts from the reader's enjoyment? Or she has ulterior motives for doing so? Or am I completely misreading you?







OK, your position makes more sense to me now, although I can't say I relate. I guess that's just a really different way of enjoying the series that maybe I haven't thought about. I was a Bible major in college, which meant lots of studying greek and arguing over what certain ancient texts mean. The assumption being that there is a definite meaning that can be derived from a given text, but we have to understand the language, history, culture, audience, and any number of complex factors in order to arrive at a certain conclusion. So this is the mindset I'm used to - that if you know certain background information, you get a richer and more profound understanding of things; and that this background stuff matters much more than whatever it is that your interpretation means to you personally. Does that make sense?

Jo coming out and saying "Albus is gay," to me, is like God (or the Apostle John) coming down and giving authoritative commentary on a tricky passage in the book of revelation once and for all . . . or it's like suddenly getting a deleted scene on a DVD; like how when the Extended LOTR discs came out, there were scenes that explained other scenes more fully. So I guess in my mind there is only Jo's stuff, Jo's characters and Jo's world that she has been gracious enough to let us explore.

So yeah, your view kinda does sound a little presumptuous to me, but only b/c of my background :smileyhappy:

Some of you criticizing her for 'tweaking' or 'adding to' a character that is already in stone, I think you're forgetting that this is something she knew about Dumbledore years and years ago, when she was still plotting out the series.

It's just that she hadn't decided to tell anyone until very recently when it came up in an interview. I agree with her that these are and always will be her characters and she can handle them any way she wants to. She doesn't owe it to anyone to 'let go of the puppies' as one of you put it. I'd personally find this notion rather insulting if I were in her shoes. None of us are in the position to tell her what she should and shouldn't do.

Oh, and hemustbeaflamer: please stop trolling; it's kind of annoying.

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 11-06-2007 09:06 PM


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Everyman
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

It makes sense, particularly given what we know about the relationship in way too many cases between priests and choirboys.

Dumbledore not only has the authority to order any male student to come up to his isolated and very private quarters, but as the best wizard of all he certainly has the power through spells, charms, or potions to impel any student he wants to engage sexually with him.

How has he kept this secret for so long? Again, obvious. He has the power to cast spells to keep his young victims from speaking out about their experiences with him.

It all makes perfect sense. It explains why he would have sought and would hang on so fiercely to this position of power over boys and young men, why he never married, and why he never hired any even moderately attractive young women as teachers.

For one may smile and smile and be a villain.
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Thomas_T
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

I am really really hoping this is a bad joke, and not your accually belief that every homosexual is a pedophile.. either way I see this entire statement as rather offensive.



Everyman wrote:
It makes sense, particularly given what we know about the relationship in way too many cases between priests and choirboys.

Dumbledore not only has the authority to order any male student to come up to his isolated and very private quarters, but as the best wizard of all he certainly has the power through spells, charms, or potions to impel any student he wants to engage sexually with him.

How has he kept this secret for so long? Again, obvious. He has the power to cast spells to keep his young victims from speaking out about their experiences with him.

It all makes perfect sense. It explains why he would have sought and would hang on so fiercely to this position of power over boys and young men, why he never married, and why he never hired any even moderately attractive young women as teachers.

For one may smile and smile and be a villain.


"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds Serenity
" To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan
Proud Cupcake Eater in service to the Dark Countess
"Live with Honor, act with Integrity, No Regrets"
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Everyman
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]
Certainly not every one is. Indeed, very few are. Though it is also undeniable in light of the number of abused choirboys who have come forward over the years and the history of some boarding school students in very hierarchical school environments that there are many more than we would like to think.

But when you have one who chooses and maintains for many years a position of great power over large numbers of boys and young men, who has the power and ability to conceal such acts from the world and appear blameless, and who has no other apparent sexual outlet, the odds increase dramatically.

Perhaps, as in the quotation in your signature, he aimed to misbehave.

Do you have any reason to think that my supposition is impossible?

ShadowCougar wrote:
I am really really hoping this is a bad joke, and not your accually belief that every homosexual is a pedophile.. either way I see this entire statement as rather offensive.



Everyman wrote:
It makes sense, particularly given what we know about the relationship in way too many cases between priests and choirboys.

Dumbledore not only has the authority to order any male student to come up to his isolated and very private quarters, but as the best wizard of all he certainly has the power through spells, charms, or potions to impel any student he wants to engage sexually with him.

How has he kept this secret for so long? Again, obvious. He has the power to cast spells to keep his young victims from speaking out about their experiences with him.

It all makes perfect sense. It explains why he would have sought and would hang on so fiercely to this position of power over boys and young men, why he never married, and why he never hired any even moderately attractive young women as teachers.

For one may smile and smile and be a villain.






Message Edited by Everyman on 11-07-2007 11:08 AM
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Thomas_T
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

Just seven books showing a character who looked into the darkness of his own soul, and then spent a life time dedicating himself to the protecting people from those who would abuse power. He did not remain at Hogwarts to molest children as you seem to think, but to protect them from those that might do them harm. That is why he turned down positions of power, he knew they were too easy to abuse. So why would a person who avoided being in power over the UK's wizarding world for fear that he might abuse it, then abuse his power and do a horrible evil thing? Goes against the very fiber of the character.

As a side note, the quote in my signature is a line from a character who says that because he intends to stand against those who are in power and abuse it. So yeah, I think it fits DD.





Everyman wrote:

Perhaps, as in the quotation in your signature, he aimed to misbehave.

Do you have any reason to think that my supposition is impossible?


Message Edited by Everyman on 11-07-2007 11:08 AM

"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds Serenity
" To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan
Proud Cupcake Eater in service to the Dark Countess
"Live with Honor, act with Integrity, No Regrets"
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

There is absolutely nothing in any of the books to suggest that Dumbledore acted inappropriately with any of his students, and, to go back to my point, I don't think there's anything in the books to suggest that he was homosexual, or even inclined that way.



Everyman wrote:
It makes sense, particularly given what we know about the relationship in way too many cases between priests and choirboys.

Dumbledore not only has the authority to order any male student to come up to his isolated and very private quarters, but as the best wizard of all he certainly has the power through spells, charms, or potions to impel any student he wants to engage sexually with him.

How has he kept this secret for so long? Again, obvious. He has the power to cast spells to keep his young victims from speaking out about their experiences with him.

It all makes perfect sense. It explains why he would have sought and would hang on so fiercely to this position of power over boys and young men, why he never married, and why he never hired any even moderately attractive young women as teachers.

For one may smile and smile and be a villain.


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Mollywobbles
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

I'm with you ShadowCougar. And, just so you don't think you're being ignored, subtley or otherwise, the author may think she has given us clues, but if she has, they are so subtle as to be unrecognizable, at least to me. Perhaps, because she has such a clear picture of her characters in her own mind, she thinks that we will pick up on the so called hints.

I certainly found no hints in books 1-6. In DH, I only found two sections which, if I forced the thought to the front of my mind, could I possibly construe as being a hint of Dumbledore's sexual orientation. These were the comment in the letter from Dumbledore to Grindewald..the otherwise we wouldn't have met line, and a comment in Rita's book by Bathilda saying Albus was missing lads of his own age.

If anyone sees any other clues, I'd be interested hearing what they are, because it just eludes me completely.



ShadowCougar wrote:
Just seven books showing a character who looked into the darkness of his own soul, and then spent a life time dedicating himself to the protecting people from those who would abuse power. He did not remain at Hogwarts to molest children as you seem to think, but to protect them from those that might do them harm. That is why he turned down positions of power, he knew they were too easy to abuse. So why would a person who avoided being in power over the UK's wizarding world for fear that he might abuse it, then abuse his power and do a horrible evil thing? Goes against the very fiber of the character.

As a side note, the quote in my signature is a line from a character who says that because he intends to stand against those who are in power and abuse it. So yeah, I think it fits DD.





Everyman wrote:

Perhaps, as in the quotation in your signature, he aimed to misbehave.

Do you have any reason to think that my supposition is impossible?


Message Edited by Everyman on 11-07-2007 11:08 AM




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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

Hah!! Luna fooled me! She wanted me to check the dumbledora I mean Dumbledore is gay thread to make me post and comment! I shall not! **off hunting luna… brrrrr
Where’s that post now??? Hunt, search, hunt! Ahaa!!

What am I talking about? Ask luna.
o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"



ABI wrote:


Kreacherteacher wrote:
Ohmigosh! Have you met mrsronald? Accio mrsronald! I have met your future husband!



damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
Gol Durn,

Muh trucks in the dang shop, muh football team lost this weekend and now I find out muh favorite author since Tolkien and Lewis cain't keep her dang mouth shut after she's done writin the dang books! Don't every author know bout that?

Sheez, ah need me a Bud





oh my god, yeah, we shall actually have a wedding on this board! well, one that's not interrupted by the scandal of lovely me running off with the groom...lol.

just need to tear the missus from her boo, let Ron's mistress have ron, and viola! damizfrodogay2, you 'ave found yourself ze most crazy, (not ALLEGEDLY of course, lol, mrw, are you begging for someone to comment on that or what?), erratic, wife the world can offer!

you'll have to make it to the Philippines somehow though...lol...


***ACCIO-ING HERSELF IN ZIS DARNED THEEEEAD.. zoom!!
OI WHAT ZE HELL IS GOING ON IN HEA?????


**points finger and upturns abi’s and kreacher’s nose! (POINK!!)

WHO IZ ZIS PAHSON YOU AH TALKIN ABOUT? I am ronald’s and ronald’s alone!!!


**double take on (sheesh I can’t spell your name! You’re making me dddiiiizzzeeeyyy!!!)

**blushes… ooohhh im ah fahwhiskey drinker… posh, and lovely and bubbly….

But ze question is WAH AH YA’LL PLANNING MAH WEDDING WIZOUT MAH KNOWLEDGE??? I am only your motha and I know you want to git rid of me!!

Stop laughin macros!
Spanks macrosss with a belt!

***off to cleaning…. Kids!!silencio!!!

LOL!!!
You guys are crazy! Haha!


**and to my ally, I shall give you a dozen wrackspurts for zis wondervul spy mission you have done foh me.
o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

I would like to talk to frodogay2.
Allegedly you ave been declaring you ah drunk. And im not!
Allegedly!!


*mrsRW is in a bad temper…..
looks foh buttahbeah wiz mahtini,, ahhh… luuurrrvvvee it. HICK!!!
I SHALL DEAL WITH MAH DISPLEASHA LATER ……. Hahaha-hick!
o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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LovelyLuna
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



mrsronaldweasley wrote:
I would like to talk to frodogay2.
Allegedly you ave been declaring you ah drunk. And im not!
Allegedly!!


*mrsRW is in a bad temper…..
looks foh buttahbeah wiz mahtini,, ahhh… luuurrrvvvee it. HICK!!!
I SHALL DEAL WITH MAH DISPLEASHA LATER ……. Hahaha-hick!




Kreacher you're in big trouble with mom!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quick....hide in the broomshed... Mom, she's in the broomshed.......
Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a Gift, that's why they call it "The Present."
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Everyman
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



ShadowCougar wrote:
He did not remain at Hogwarts to molest children as you seem to think, but to protect them from those that might do them harm.

That's the way he spins it, of course. And who knows, it may be true; there are priests with the best of intentions to protect those they serve as well as the ones with darkness hidden under their robes of authority and power.

You and I will just have to accept that we see D's relationship with the students differently.
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halfscripts
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



Everyman wrote:


ShadowCougar wrote:
He did not remain at Hogwarts to molest children as you seem to think, but to protect them from those that might do them harm.

That's the way he spins it, of course. And who knows, it may be true; there are priests with the best of intentions to protect those they serve as well as the ones with darkness hidden under their robes of authority and power.

You and I will just have to accept that we see D's relationship with the students differently.





Here's the thing: I can tell you with absolute certainty that Dumbledore was not a sexual predator, he never abused any of the children in his care, and his sexuality was absolutely not relevant to any of the relationships he had with Harry or any other male student. Want to know why? Because DUMBLEDORE ISN'T A REAL PERSON. He is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER, therefore if Rowling doesn't come out and say "oh ps Harry and Dumbledore were totally hitting it yall" it means it never happened. Case closed. Stop trying to destroy Dumbledore's character with all these what ifs and disciminatory statements that make absolutely NO sense and are actually quite offending in their extreme ignorance... because guess what, no matter what your close minded beliefs may be, they don't apply here because it's a BOOK, it's NOT real life, and unless one of those stupid theories are in the book, or said outloud by Rowling, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Get over it.

Oh, how wrong we were to think that immortality meant never dying.
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ProudBookWorm
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

First of all, I fully agree with those who believe that Dumbledore's character was enriched by this new fact. To me, it adds a little more background to the character, and makes him come more to life. When I'm reading or writing, I like to know the mundane details, the tiny things not everyone would know about a character, and I for one am excited to have a new tidbit about a HP character.

Second of all, I believe that gay and straight are equal and always will be. One is not better than the other. All it is, is sexual preference. I see nothing wrong with either.

Finally, Dumbledore is in no way a molester. Not only would that COMPLETELY destroy the character that's been so carefully crafted for the past decade, but I just don't see it. People who would suggest that just because he's gay need to realize that molestation is a reflection of not sexual orientation, but rather the effect of a mental problem. No SANE person molests somebody. It's not a question of being gay; it's a question of being emotionally together. And I find it personally offensive when someone states Dumbledore molesting Harry, Voldemort, or any other student. He would NEVER do that, because he is a good person.

Sorry...but when I read the posts on molestation and sexual abuse, it made me angry. I have several gay friends and none of them would even DREAM of doing something like that.

That's all.
~Krissi~

"Do you have the time to listen to me whine"- "Basket Case" by Green Day

So...do you?
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tigerlilly
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]
Halfscripts! You never fail to make me laugh!

This line had me peeing my pants: "oh ps Harry and Dumbledore were totally hitting it yall"

So funny!

Shadow, you are my new hero! Way to defend DD!



DD was NOT a pedophile! C'mon, really, people!

Message Edited by tigerlilly on 11-07-2007 04:47 PM
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PAUL'S GRANDFATHER!"
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hemustbeaflamer
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Re: What happened to the human race?



PEGSmom wrote:

hemustbeaflamer wrote:
But we really need to find something better to do.





Whatever for???? What's better than this? :smileyhappy:






I don't know... Fresh air, exercise, flying a kite, sky's the limit... pardon the sorta pun... kite... sky.. being the limit...
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halfscripts
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Re: What happened to the human race?

Good to know that the next time I lose my temper, tigerlily, you'll be there to giggle at my ranting & raving :smileyhappy:

Oh, how wrong we were to think that immortality meant never dying.
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tigerlilly
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Re: What happened to the human race?

Yeah, I really do enjoy people's rants :smileyhappy:
"Who's that little old man?
PAUL'S GRANDFATHER!"
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Everyman
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]

halfscripts wrote:
...He is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER, therefore if Rowling doesn't come out and say "oh ps Harry and Dumbledore were totally hitting it yall" it means it never happened. Case closed.

You and I obviously have very different ways of reading books. So if Rowling doesn't say that Harry breathed, he didn't; if Rowling doesn't say that he ate breakfast, he didn't. I consider that a very limited way of reading a book, but if it's your way, fine.

Of course, the literal reality is that, since they are all fictional characters, they didn't do ANYTHING AT ALL. Nothing ever happened, they never did a thing, and why are we even bothering to read these books?

Message Edited by Everyman on 11-07-2007 11:03 PM
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I think, therefore I drive people nuts.