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PEGSmom
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"


damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
MollyWobbles said:

"Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is."

Got to agree with yuh. In addition to DD bein gay he'd of almost certainly been an Obama supporter and a Colt's fan.

Ye-haw!


I have to agree, she is messing with my (fantasy) world, changing my friends. She "finished" the story now leave it be!

BTW, Welcome damiIzfrodogay2! Love the name :smileyhappy:
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damIzfrodogay2
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

Thanks PegsMom,

oh and BTW what else are folks reading next -- I really just finished DH a couple days ago (Let my son read it first) and now I'm feeling parched. Any one ever read Tim Powers "Drawing of the Dark". Let me know if I should move this to an existing thread.
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macross
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

[ Edited ]

PEGSmom wrote:

damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
MollyWobbles said:

"Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is."

Got to agree with yuh. In addition to DD bein gay he'd of almost certainly been an Obama supporter and a Colt's fan.

Ye-haw!


I have to agree, she is messing with my (fantasy) world, changing my friends. She "finished" the story now leave it be!

BTW, Welcome damiIzfrodogay2! Love the name :smileyhappy:





But their in lies the problem. It is not our fantasy world, nor our friends, nor our characters. They are Jo's. And she does not have to write in the books every detail pertaining to the lives of these characters. If she adds something afterwards its to flesh the character out. I don't see the big fuss because in DH it is never said what Harry did for a living. We find out afterwards cause Jo's said he was Head Auror along with Ron. But the book never says it.

Message Edited by macross on 11-06-2007 01:04 PM
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"



macross wrote:


PEGSmom wrote:

damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
MollyWobbles said:

"Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is."

Got to agree with yuh. In addition to DD bein gay he'd of almost certainly been an Obama supporter and a Colt's fan.

Ye-haw!


I have to agree, she is messing with my (fantasy) world, changing my friends. She "finished" the story now leave it be!

BTW, Welcome damiIzfrodogay2! Love the name :smileyhappy:





But their in lies the problem. It is not our fantasy world, nor our friends, nor our characters. They are Jo's. And she does not have to write in the books every detail pertaining to the lives of these characters. If she adds somwthing afterwards its to flesh the character out. I dont see the big fuss because in DH it is never said what Harry did for a living. We find out afterwards cause Jo's said he was Head Auror along with Ron. But the book never says it.




If she had only mentioned what Harry did for a living, I guess we wouldn't be having this discussion. She picked a controversial attribute, though. If she has said that he was Jewish or Republican, we'd still be talking about it.
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"



damIzfrodogay2 wrote:


macross wrote:


PEGSmom wrote:

damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
MollyWobbles said:

"Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is."

Got to agree with yuh. In addition to DD bein gay he'd of almost certainly been an Obama supporter and a Colt's fan.

Ye-haw!


I have to agree, she is messing with my (fantasy) world, changing my friends. She "finished" the story now leave it be!

BTW, Welcome damiIzfrodogay2! Love the name :smileyhappy:





But their in lies the problem. It is not our fantasy world, nor our friends, nor our characters. They are Jo's. And she does not have to write in the books every detail pertaining to the lives of these characters. If she adds somwthing afterwards its to flesh the character out. I dont see the big fuss because in DH it is never said what Harry did for a living. We find out afterwards cause Jo's said he was Head Auror along with Ron. But the book never says it.




If she had only mentioned what Harry did for a living, I guess we wouldn't be having this discussion. She picked a controversial attribute, though. If she has said that he was Jewish or Republican, we'd still be talking about it.




And that is how you maintain your audience interested. How many of us went to read the books again to see if we could see subtle details regarding DD sexual orientation? OR how many new readers decided to pick up a Harry Potter due to this revelation?
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"





And that is how you maintain your audience interested. How many of us went to read the books again to see if we could see subtle details regarding DD sexual orientation? OR how many new readers decided to pick up a Harry Potter due to this revelation?




Certainly guilty as charged here. If that was her intention, then it worked. There as some folks who have posted that it was not done for sensational reasons. I'm in the camp that says that was at least the partial motivation. I'm off to lunch -- catch up later.
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this Macross. It actually IS my fantasy world, and that of every reader who purchased her book. It's time to give away the puppies. I don't have a problem with her saying things like what Harry did for a living, or the fact that Neville and Hannah got married and live over the Leaky Cauldron...these were events which occurred after the series had ended. By adding elements to a character after the fact, as she did with Dumbledore, she is subtly changing the character that we thought we knew through the entire series of stories. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Suppose at the next reading she revealed that Petunia was actually pregnant with their second child, and seeing Harry on the doorstep that morning caused her to miscarry, and that is one of the reasons why Petunia and Vernon are so mean to Harry...That would be asking us to review our opinion of Petunia and Vernon based on additional information not included in the text. Nope, it's not kosher.



macross wrote:

PEGSmom wrote:

damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
MollyWobbles said:

"Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is."

Got to agree with yuh. In addition to DD bein gay he'd of almost certainly been an Obama supporter and a Colt's fan.

Ye-haw!


I have to agree, she is messing with my (fantasy) world, changing my friends. She "finished" the story now leave it be!

BTW, Welcome damiIzfrodogay2! Love the name :smileyhappy:





But their in lies the problem. It is not our fantasy world, nor our friends, nor our characters. They are Jo's. And she does not have to write in the books every detail pertaining to the lives of these characters. If she adds something afterwards its to flesh the character out. I don't see the big fuss because in DH it is never said what Harry did for a living. We find out afterwards cause Jo's said he was Head Auror along with Ron. But the book never says it.

Message Edited by macross on 11-06-2007 01:04 PM


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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"



damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
Thanks PegsMom,

oh and BTW what else are folks reading next -- I really just finished DH a couple days ago (Let my son read it first) and now I'm feeling parched. Any one ever read Tim Powers "Drawing of the Dark". Let me know if I should move this to an existing thread.





There is a thread for what after Harry...some of us are rereading, trying to hold on to the glow...
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"



macross wrote:
I still say all author's have every right to do as they please with there characters. It is their vision whether we like it or not.SO if Jo wants to add a it of more depth to her character, Power to her.


Exactly. She wasn't intending to make this any sort of "canon," she revealed it because it was asked as a direct question. Well, closr enough to a direct question to be referred to as that. If this point was of any great significance she would have revealed it as one in the books. "I always thought of DD as gay." She is entitled to her opinion as the rest of us.

We might fantasize about a character in great depth, and it is perfectly fine, right? But we are supposing her opinion is superior to us all, and we CAN see it that way.

..But in my humble opinion, by not including this fact in the books, her opinion and word is no longer superior to anybody's, her theories are no different than ours, and what she says on the subject is ONLY as significant as we make it.
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

But for me the problem lies....in that I believe they started out as hers, most definitely, but now they have become mine. The fantasy world and the wonderful characters are places I can go visit, friends I can go meet and get away from the sometimes crappy world. I still have a hard time touching other books after reading DH when it first came out. I just don't want to leave this world. Perhaps Jo feels the same way. I have problems not only with the mention that DD is gay but what she said about Neville and Hannah. The story is done, unless she intends to write sequels, prequels or what ever she should just keep it to herself.



macross wrote:

PEGSmom wrote:

damIzfrodogay2 wrote:
MollyWobbles said:

"Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is."

Got to agree with yuh. In addition to DD bein gay he'd of almost certainly been an Obama supporter and a Colt's fan.

Ye-haw!


I have to agree, she is messing with my (fantasy) world, changing my friends. She "finished" the story now leave it be!

BTW, Welcome damiIzfrodogay2! Love the name :smileyhappy:





But their in lies the problem. It is not our fantasy world, nor our friends, nor our characters. They are Jo's. And she does not have to write in the books every detail pertaining to the lives of these characters. If she adds something afterwards its to flesh the character out. I don't see the big fuss because in DH it is never said what Harry did for a living. We find out afterwards cause Jo's said he was Head Auror along with Ron. But the book never says it.

Message Edited by macross on 11-06-2007 01:04 PM

~ PEGSmom~
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"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow"
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Kreacherteacher
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

This thread never gets old. I, for one, am glad she said it because of all the discussion. I value and respect the insight other people have shared.

I suppose if we look at it from the standpoint of books as being consumed, we can say Rowling shouldn't/can't edit at this point. They have already been consumed. This is true for many readers.

However, there are those of us (myself included), who are slow eaters because we talk too much, and are therefore still consuming the books (I've eaten them all, but I am still chewing the fat to savor the taste), and it makes perfect sense to us for Jo to give us this knowledge. Just because I have read them doesn't mean I am casting it aside from all further knowledge of characters.

Clarification is also a good reading strategy. I use this strategy with most books I read as I love to discuss them with other people. Literature circles discuss books long after they have been published, and one of the questions I see/hear the most is "What if?" How is that different from this case?

Basically, this is the way that I have been viewing it: We are simply in a really cool literature circle with the author herself because we live in the 21st century and we have wonderful access to people. How flargin' cool is that?!
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

Once again, I will point out (And I guess be ignored again) It is not after the fact. Jo honestly thinks she put it in DH, just so subtly that most folks missed it.
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"


ShadowCougar wrote:
Once again, I will point out (And I guess be ignored again) It is not after the fact. Jo honestly thinks she put it in DH, just so subtly that most folks missed it.


But did she honestly expect us to pick up on it? Or was she planning not to revela it? What I'm saying is that she must not have considered it so important, otherwise it should have been something more obvious. right? I mean, she must have realized that how she put it in was just TOO subtle. I think she might have been going for something for certain people to pick up on and certain people to ignore. But though the thought crossed my mind, I just dismissed it, thinking she would have made it somewhat more obvious...**sighs**

And I did pick up on that. you can be specific you know. i don't mind...ABI YOU FORGET THAT...ABI YOU REMAIN RIDICULOUSLY IGNORANT OF THE FACT THAT... whatever.
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

I agree! It IS very cool and we are very lucky to have her still here and be apart of what Connie called the "first generation" readers. Really we are making history. I too value others opinions and that is why I love this place!

Kreacherteacher wrote:
br>
Basically, this is the way that I have been viewing it: We are simply in a really cool literature circle with the author herself because we live in the 21st century and we have wonderful access to people. How flargin' cool is that?!

~ PEGSmom~
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"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow"
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

I agree with you Shadow (aka future-boyfriend-once-mac-realizes-I-am-too-high-maintenance). I shall never ignore you! I haven't reread yet so I dunno if I will see it when I do or not.



ShadowCougar wrote:
Once again, I will point out (And I guess be ignored again) It is not after the fact. Jo honestly thinks she put it in DH, just so subtly that most folks missed it.


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What happened to the human race?

16 pages? seriously is this what our lives have come to? This is really kind of sad. and don't get mad because I'm saying it about myself, too. But we really need to find something better to do. Now that our basic needs are fulfilled we need somethingto do I guess. If you read from the beginning of this discussion it will drive you crazy. Some people are for it some people against it and some people don't care and just want to make a joke now and then. The conversation goes in circles and never gets anywhere. The wizard's gay we all know it's over and done.
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Re: What happened to the human race?



hemustbeaflamer wrote:
16 pages? seriously is this what our lives have come to? This is really kind of sad. and don't get mad because I'm saying it about myself, too. But we really need to find something better to do. Now that our basic needs are fulfilled we need somethingto do I guess. If you read from the beginning of this discussion it will drive you crazy. Some people are for it some people against it and some people don't care and just want to make a joke now and then. The conversation goes in circles and never gets anywhere. The wizard's gay we all know it's over and done.


But would you honestly expect anything different, hmbaf? sixteen pages...typical. on this subject.
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
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Re: What happened to the human race?

You think this is bad, check out the snape thread.. I think after the first three pages we just all repeat ourselves. :smileyvery-happy:
Saying that.. we enjoy this board and the people here, so we don;t feel there is something better to do then talk to our friends.




hemustbeaflamer wrote:
16 pages? seriously is this what our lives have come to? This is really kind of sad. and don't get mad because I'm saying it about myself, too. But we really need to find something better to do. Now that our basic needs are fulfilled we need somethingto do I guess. If you read from the beginning of this discussion it will drive you crazy. Some people are for it some people against it and some people don't care and just want to make a joke now and then. The conversation goes in circles and never gets anywhere. The wizard's gay we all know it's over and done.


"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds Serenity
" To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan
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Re: JKR--Storyteller and Novelist, and the "Canon"

[ Edited ]

Mollywobbles wrote:
Phrodo, the point of disagreement, or discussion rather, relates to the fact that the author is messing with my characters after the fact. Yes, presumptuous as that sounds, these are MY characters. They stepped out of her books into my imagination. MY Harry has green eyes, MY Ron has red hair, and all the information given about them in the books has been incorporated into my imaginary characters. But there were many things unsaid, there was plenty of room for speculation and imagination, and MY characters may have evolved quite differently from the author's, regardless of her truckload of backstory.

Dudley is a good example. MY Dudley would never have shaken hands with Harry. My Dudley would have stalked off scowling, without a word, or, more likely, given Harry one final punch in the nose. When I read the scene in DH, I said to my imaginary character-why Dudders, there's hope for you yet!", and that bit of the story completed my Dudley, there was no more written about him, no more to learn, his part was over.

There were a great many revelations about Dumbledore in DH, and many of them I didn't like. I was quite distressed with what I still think of as Dumbledore's manipulations, and I resisted having to incorporate in my Dumbledore a dark, devious and secretive side. Yet, there was the evidence, clearly stated, there was no escaping it.

Throughout the series, I had never given a single thought to Dumbledore's sexual orientation, it simply didn't occur to me. He was, as someone else put it, benignly asexual. After the series, MY Dumbledore was complete, albeit a much more flawed imaginary character than I had envisaged up to book 7.

Telling me after the fact that Dumbledore is gay is like deciding later to add dimples to the Mona Lisa. It's too late, the portrait is complete-it is what it is.

Perhaps other readers wondered about Dumbledore's sexual orientation. In that case,THEIR imaginary Dumbledore could be gay. Mine isn't.

The author is of course free to say whatever she wants about her characters-I just don't intend to listen, because my characters are complete. There are millions of Harry Potters, and Dumbledores, out there, one for each reader-and that's just the way it should be.



phrodo41 wrote:
Molly,

remind me what it is we're disagreeing on here? Does it bother you that that she reveals the backstory she wrote for a character without spelling it out in the main story? Is that because you feel this is inappropriate for children's literature, or somehow detracts from the reader's enjoyment? Or she has ulterior motives for doing so? Or am I completely misreading you?







OK, your position makes more sense to me now, although I can't say I relate. I guess that's just a really different way of enjoying the series that maybe I haven't thought about. I was a Bible major in college, which meant lots of studying greek and arguing over what certain ancient texts mean. The assumption being that there is a definite meaning that can be derived from a given text, but we have to understand the language, history, culture, audience, and any number of complex factors in order to arrive at a certain conclusion. So this is the mindset I'm used to - that if you know certain background information, you get a richer and more profound understanding of things; and that this background stuff matters much more than whatever it is that your interpretation means to you personally. Does that make sense?

Jo coming out and saying "Albus is gay," to me, is like God (or the Apostle John) coming down and giving authoritative commentary on a tricky passage in the book of revelation once and for all . . . or it's like suddenly getting a deleted scene on a DVD; like how when the Extended LOTR discs came out, there were scenes that explained other scenes more fully. So I guess in my mind there is only Jo's stuff, Jo's characters and Jo's world that she has been gracious enough to let us explore.

So yeah, your view kinda does sound a little presumptuous to me, but only b/c of my background :smileyhappy:

Some of you criticizing her for 'tweaking' or 'adding to' a character that is already in stone, I think you're forgetting that this is something she knew about Dumbledore years and years ago, when she was still plotting out the series.

It's just that she hadn't decided to tell anyone until very recently when it came up in an interview. I agree with her that these are and always will be her characters and she can handle them any way she wants to. She doesn't owe it to anyone to 'let go of the puppies' as one of you put it. I'd personally find this notion rather insulting if I were in her shoes. None of us are in the position to tell her what she should and shouldn't do.

Oh, and hemustbeaflamer: please stop trolling; it's kind of annoying.

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 11-06-2007 09:06 PM
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PEGSmom
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Re: What happened to the human race?


hemustbeaflamer wrote:
But we really need to find something better to do.





Whatever for???? What's better than this? :smileyhappy:
~ PEGSmom~
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"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow"
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