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Proper-T
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Re: The Snape Thread

Well said.

I don't about anyone else but it seems that for those of us who expected more- we were all waiting for that conversation between Harry and Snape, and it just never came... Just the parts between Snape and Dumbledore, and Dumbledore and Harry, bur never Snape and Harry...




The_Apologist wrote:
I liked the way it was played off, but it wasn't anything like I expected. Maybe it's because I'm a bright-eyed young man, brimming with testosterone and gunpowder, but I was really expecting a final duel between the two of them, wherein Harry would defeat Snape, Snape would be mortally wounded by Harry's parting blow and, on his deathbead, explain all to Harry. I envisioned that Harry would have the chance to forgive Snape to his face before he died.

Still and all, things worked out very well. One thing I like about this book series is how realistically the characters react to almost everything, and I have to agree with others: after all of the hatred and animosity between them, there's no way those two realistically could have spoken the words that needed to be said by the time they met one another. Still and all, I think Harry naming one of his children Albus Severus Potter in the end was a brilliant masterstroke of later-in-life forgiveness and respect; a grown-up, real understanding of Snape and his actions.

The last I'll say is that Snape was damn near my favorite character, and although his death was a bad one, I can understand why it had to be that way, and what it all means... and in the end, I do think it's appropriate. Well done, J.K. Well done.


I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
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gniff
Posts: 295
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Re: The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]
Snape and the power of obsessive love ...

Over in the TPT authors' home board we discussed how two works of T.S. Eliot might figure: Murder in the Cathedral and Burnt Norton. In the former, the Fourth Tempter offers Becket the worst temptation: to do the right thing for the wrong reason.
You know and do not know, what it is to act or suffer.
You know and do not know, that action is suffering
And suffering action. Neither does the agent suffer
Nor the patient act. But both are fixed
In an eternal action, an eternal patience
To which all must consent that it may be willed
And which all must suffer that they may will it,
That the pattern may subsist, that the wheel may turn and still
Be forever still.
I think that is Snape: he did the critical right thing, and with tremendous courage, skill, and determination, for the wrong reason. For Lily alone, not for Harry, not for the world, not for the many who would otherwise suffer. And yet, he is ashamed of what Albus rightly says is the best of him.

A brilliantly made character, but is he a hero or an anti-hero? A tragic hero, or a tragedy? A flawed hero who nevertheless reaches the good end, the man who can only tell Harry the truth when he no longer has to look Harry in the face?

Were I Harry, I would celebrate him. But as the reader, I don't know what to do.

We know all there is to know about Severus Snape. We may even know the man. But we don't know what to make of him.

Here is a question to consider: Did Snape meet his end at peace with himself, at least?

Message Edited by gniff on 07-22-2007 02:57 AM
__________________________________________
... and then you just have to play algebra ...
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Psychee
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Re: The Snape Thread


gniff wrote:
Here is a question to consider: Did Snape meet his end at peace with himself, at least?





I would definitely think so, as he had completed the task which he had risked his life for. Harry got every bit of information he needed out of Snape to defeat Voldemort. And as a bonus, Snape had left a true accounting of his actions to die a proven hero. Voldemort might have killed him, but Snape ultimately got revenge on him for killing Lily.

By the way, I'm now very positive that he was the Death Eater whom Voldemort thought left him forever... as he had asked him to spare Lily and he did not.
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Proper-T
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Re: The Snape Thread

You're post- which is Brilliant in it's points by the way :smileyhappy: just further makes me wich they could have had a conversation...

Could Snape's last act been to look into Harry's eyes to see Lily, and think it was worth it, or did he think it wasn't?

I mean we can't even say he will have a good after life, because in his after life he will not be able to be with Lily the way he wants too... in fact, he'll be in the after life with James, Sirius, Remus and even Wormtail... something I'm sure he wasn't looking forward to...



gniff wrote:
Snape and the power of obsessive love ...

Over in the TPT authors' home board we discussed how two works of T.S. Eliot might figure: Murder in the Cathedral and Burnt Norton. In the former, the Fourth Tempter offers Becket the worst temptation: to do the right thing for the wrong reason.
You know and do not know, what it is to act or suffer.
You know and do not know, that action is suffering
And suffering action. Neither does the agent suffer
Nor the patient act. But both are fixed
In an eternal action, an eternal patience
To which all must consent that it may be willed
And which all must suffer that they may will it,
That the pattern may subsist, that the wheel may turn and still
Be forever still.
I think that is Snape: he did the critical right thing, and with tremendous courage, skill, and determination, for the wrong reason. For Lily alone, not for Harry, not for the world, not for the many who would otherwise suffer. And yet, he is ashamed of what Albus rightly says is the best of him.

A brilliantly made character, but is he a hero or an anti-hero? A tragic hero, or a tragedy? A flawed hero who nevertheless reaches the good end, the man who can only tell Harry the truth when he no longer has to look Harry in the face?

Were I Harry, I would celebrate him. But as the reader, I don't know what to do.

We know all there is to know about Severus Snape. We may even know the man. But we don't know what to make of him.

Here is a question to consider: Did Snape meet his end at peace with himself, at least?

Message Edited by gniff on 07-22-2007 02:57 AM


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Psychee
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Re: The Snape Thread


Proper-T wrote:
I mean we can't even say he will have a good after life, because in his after life he will not be able to be with Lily the way he wants too... in fact, he'll be in the after life with James, Sirius, Remus and even Wormtail... something I'm sure he wasn't looking forward to...





I would think that after people get through the "waystation" between life and death, wherein they work through their remaining issues of the mortal life they have left behind, and then go to the "Great Beyond", whatever form that might take, relationships are in a different form -- just a sense of connectedness, maybe -- and the petty stuff of who owns who, who loves who best, and so forth, is not an issue anymore. They are all connected in spirit -- like actors who have just finished a play -- but now can leave their former roles behind...
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Proper-T
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Re: The Snape Thread

Hmm? I hope so... it would be nice to think of Sirius and Sev coming to an understanding???




Psychee wrote:

Proper-T wrote:
I mean we can't even say he will have a good after life, because in his after life he will not be able to be with Lily the way he wants too... in fact, he'll be in the after life with James, Sirius, Remus and even Wormtail... something I'm sure he wasn't looking forward to...





I would think that after people get through the "waystation" between life and death, wherein they work through their remaining issues of the mortal life they have left behind, and then go to the "Great Beyond", whatever form that might take, relationships are in a different form -- just a sense of connectedness, maybe -- and the petty stuff of who owns who, who loves who best, and so forth, is not an issue anymore. They are all connected in spirit -- like actors who have just finished a play -- but now can leave their former roles behind...


I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
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Psychee
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Re: The Snape Thread



Proper-T wrote:
Hmm? I hope so... it would be nice to think of Sirius and Sev coming to an understanding???






Have you ever read "Many Lives, Many Masters" by Brian Weiss? That book totally transformed my views about life and the hereafter. I highly recommend it.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780671657864&itm=1
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ladyshades
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Re: The Snape Thread

I wonder how it might have played out if Voldy had allowed Snape to bring the boy to him in the end as Snape requested. I don't think Harry would have gone as willingly to his death as he did when it was his own choice.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I really was expecting just before Snape died for Voldemort to say something like 'I knew you were working against me with Dumbledore, etc.'. I expected him to say more, really lay into Snape or something.
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pigwidgeon
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Snape has been one of my favorite characters from the beginning. Don't get me wrong, I always thought he was a git, but so complex, interesting, and for some reason I felt sympathy toward him (even before the pensive scenes in earlier books where we see him mistreated). I think that what Snape has done, after changing allegiance to the Order side, is commendable. To risk his life, playing the double agent, in a deadly game for the "greater good". Regardless of the reason why Snape had the change of heart (it doesn't really matter that he did it for Lily ALONE), he HAD the change of heart and it made all of the difference in the end. How could the story have panned out as it did if Snape hadn't fooled Voldemort and been able to be in precisely every situation that was critical to either side of the battle. Harry, Dumbledore, and Snape have all made enormous personal sacrifices to allow good to triumph over darkness and evil. They all were prepared to risk their lives on a momentous scale (not to say that everyone who fought in any of the battles wasn't risking the same thing) but had those three not played out their roles "just right", the outcome would not have been the same.

All who wish for a conversation between Snape and Harry, you almost got your wish. Though I don't think it ever could be the conversation that you desire. I believe that when Snape was practically begging Voldemort to let him go find Harry and bring him back, he was trying to take his last opportunity to give Harry the information that Dumbledore wanted Harry to know (you know, after Nagini was put in her protective shell). Maybe, just maybe, at this time he could have said something about Lily, but I doubt that Snape could ever admit anything like that to Harry. Dumbledore was the only one he ever "truly" admitted it to, and he made Dumbledore promise to never reveal the "best" of Snape to anyone. Snape left those memories for Harry to fulfill his promise to Dumbledore and to let Harry know the things that he would never be able to say out loud.

Though I am sad that Snape didn't make it in the end, and I wished for a demise that was more fitting to what I consider to be a heroic, and magically gifted, character, I can't help but think that the circumstances after his death (the final moment between him and Harry, and the Pensieve memories) was masterfully perfect.
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]
I know this will probably be an unpopular minority opinion on the board, but after years of speculation re: Snape and Lily, the fact that it turned out to be spot-on seemed by now a bit... cliche, almost. Old news. I'm not even sure why exactly, since I have nothing against the idea of Snape being secretly in love with Lily, in fact I rather like the idea- but all the same I somehow found it mildly disappointing.

As was to be expected, I was both right and wrong, about ol' Sev.
Turns out he did indeed kill DD only reluctantly, and on his orders. Also turns out however that he was ultimately loyal, not to DD, but to Lily (no scene of post-tower Snape being upset w. what he had to do, among the memories). Nor did he die heroically defying Voldemort and helping Harry, as I imagined- of course I don't see him as any less a hero, but... disposed of as no further use, thru Nagini-- it was not the death that he deserved. Also DD's death WAS for Draco's protection, and because he was already dying; not because somehow it would help Harry, as I thought...

But what's with Snape's last words? "Look at me"?
Everything Harry needed to know. he would find out thru the pensieve memories, so why was the eye contact so important?

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-22-2007 04:54 PM
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



StoryMing wrote:
I know this will probably be an unpopular minority opinion on the board, but after years of speculation re: Snape and Lily, the fact that it turned out to be spot-on seemed by now a bit... cliche, almost. Old news. I'm not even sure why exactly, since I have nothing against the idea of Snape being secretly in love with Lily, in fact I rather like the idea- but all the same I somehow found it mildly disappointing.

As was to be expected, I was both right and wrong, about ol' Sev.
Turns out he did indeed kill DD only reluctantly, and on his orders. Also turns out however that he was ultimately loyal, not to DD, but to Lily (no scene of post-tower Snape being upset w. what he had to do, among the memories). And DD's death WAS for Draco's protection, and because he was already dying; not because somehow it would help Harry, as I thought...

But what's with Snape's last words? "Look at me"?
Everything Harry needed to know. he would find out thru the pensieve memories, so why was the eye contact so important?




StoryMing:I think, as some others have stated on this board too, that the importance of Harry looking Snape in the eye, at the time of Snape's death, had to do with Harry's green eyes being the perfect replica of his mother's. Snape wanted to look into Lily's eyes one last time, even though they were attached to Harry. It sounds kind of awkward, but I think it is actually quite a touching scene.
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amm1
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Re: The Snape Thread

I have very mixed emotions about the Snape ending. I've never like the Snape loving Lily angle and I still don't. Sorry. But all I can say is Snape is still by far the best character in my book and it's a crying shame we got this rushed-tell-it-all-at-one-time Pensieve scene.
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dcsbelle
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Re: The Snape Thread

I never believed in the Snape-loved-Lily theory based on the info we saw in "Snapes's Worst Memory" but seeing his memories going back to their childhood fleshed it out beautifully and I certainly understand now how DD was so sure of his loyalty. I found it very poignant and his death coming as he looked into Harry's eyes very heartbreaking.



amm1 wrote:
I have very mixed emotions about the Snape ending. I've never like the Snape loving Lily angle and I still don't. Sorry. But all I can say is Snape is still by far the best character in my book and it's a crying shame we got this rushed-tell-it-all-at-one-time Pensieve scene.


Debbie

Hedwig is not really dead; it was all just a big misunderstanding
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Oh man, I loved the Snape/Lily memories even if I suspected it all along. Someone on this board came up with the idea that Snape grew up with the Evans sisters, and I entertained the possibility but thought it probably wasn't the case, but alas it was : ) I loved the memories. It showed you a different side of Snape. You could see how he cared for her and he seemed so caring and patient with her and you saw how she cared for him and I just loved it : ) I liked her calling him 'Sev'. And I agree with Pigwidgeon, I think that was the reason he wanted Harry to look at him. Its a wonder that Snape could do Legilimancy at all against Harry, you'd think those eyes would have distracted him. I can't remember where in the book his eyes were mentioned, maybe it was at 'King's Cross', I'll have to re-read that part and find it, but whoever was talking about Harry's eyes, the way they said it made me think that right after it, they would say something like 'Those are Lily's eyes and she can see through the veil through them' or something like that. It never happened though. I'm losing my disappointment lack of 'missing details' in the book and looking forward to the re-read : )



StoryMing wrote:
I know this will probably be an unpopular minority opinion on the board, but after years of speculation re: Snape and Lily, the fact that it turned out to be spot-on seemed by now a bit... cliche, almost. Old news. I'm not even sure why exactly, since I have nothing against the idea of Snape being secretly in love with Lily, in fact I rather like the idea- but all the same I somehow found it mildly disappointing.

As was to be expected, I was both right and wrong, about ol' Sev.
Turns out he did indeed kill DD only reluctantly, and on his orders. Also turns out however that he was ultimately loyal, not to DD, but to Lily (no scene of post-tower Snape being upset w. what he had to do, among the memories). Nor did he die heroically defying Voldemort and helping Harry, as I imagined- of course I don't see him as any less a hero, but... disposed of as no further use, thru Nagini-- it was not the death that he deserved. Also DD's death WAS for Draco's protection, and because he was already dying; not because somehow it would help Harry, as I thought...

But what's with Snape's last words? "Look at me"?
Everything Harry needed to know. he would find out thru the pensieve memories, so why was the eye contact so important?

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-22-2007 04:54 PM


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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Snape is not my favorite character, but he is one of the primary three, in terms of construction (Albus, Harry, Severus).

I guessed at a possible Severus-Lily connection, though the "they grew up together" thing was a big, welcome surprise. After I saw that scene, I knew why the "Mudblood" scene was Snape's worst memory. He loses the one he loves...to the person he hates most. I felt really sorry for Snape, but suddenly realized what the next memory would be...Lily's death. Oh my god, I wanted to cry so much (but since I can't, it had to be "on the inside") when I read the "OH MY GOD SHE'S DEAD..." scene. After that, I understood why Albus was always such an idiot, or seemed to be, about Snape. We misunderstood, we thought he meant that Snape was loyal to HIM...it was all about Lily. *cries, on the inside*

A Harry-Severus, heart-to-heart, man-to-man conversation could never have ocurred. They hated each other so much, it just wouldn't have worked. Seeing Snape die brought Harry into the mindset to follow Snape's last request, giving Snape a (for him), merciful end.

The pensieve scene was just a whirlwind of angst and tragedy, and I think that was the only way for Harry to learn about Severus's motives for everything. No question.

Snape would be one of the primary heroes (not anti-hero) of the story. He's just so...frickin BRAVE! Dumbledore's statement about the Sorting being too early was right on the mark...Severus was just as brave as he was smart, in the end.

Everyone give a round of applause for Severus Snape, and to J.K. Rowling for setting all of this into motion...
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

You happy Phrodo? kpetersen?
DD was NOT too perfect, he certainly DID make mistakes, huge ones.

And SNAPE WAS NOT EVIL!!! muahahahahahaaa! *ahem* er, sorry...
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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I was so wrong on Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him. Big time wrong. Still, I'm so devasted JKR had to give Snape this crappy childhood and life, only to kill him off in the end. Couldn't she do better than that?
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phrodo41
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]

pigwidgeon wrote:


StoryMing wrote:
I know this will probably be an unpopular minority opinion on the board, but after years of speculation re: Snape and Lily, the fact that it turned out to be spot-on seemed by now a bit... cliche, almost. Old news. I'm not even sure why exactly, since I have nothing against the idea of Snape being secretly in love with Lily, in fact I rather like the idea- but all the same I somehow found it mildly disappointing.

As was to be expected, I was both right and wrong, about ol' Sev.
Turns out he did indeed kill DD only reluctantly, and on his orders. Also turns out however that he was ultimately loyal, not to DD, but to Lily (no scene of post-tower Snape being upset w. what he had to do, among the memories). And DD's death WAS for Draco's protection, and because he was already dying; not because somehow it would help Harry, as I thought...

But what's with Snape's last words? "Look at me"?
Everything Harry needed to know. he would find out thru the pensieve memories, so why was the eye contact so important?




StoryMing:I think, as some others have stated on this board too, that the importance of Harry looking Snape in the eye, at the time of Snape's death, had to do with Harry's green eyes being the perfect replica of his mother's. Snape wanted to look into Lily's eyes one last time, even though they were attached to Harry. It sounds kind of awkward, but I think it is actually quite a touching scene.




I too was never a big fan of the Snape/Lilly ship, but I am happy with how it was played out. It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong here) a little ambiguous as to whether Snape was really in love with lilly, or just crushing on her for awhile and gradually becoming good friends. It seemed like more of a platonic thing to me. I think the ending would have been more satisfying if so many fans hadn't already guessed at it - but that is not Jo's fault, it is my fault for being hooked on these message boards!

What really caught me by surprise, and dazzled me the most was the Deathly Hallows thread and the way it ties in with so many things, including the need for Snape to kill Dumbledore. Snape didn't know it, but the act of dying willingly cancels out the power of the Elder Wand, because it can only be taken by force. So it turns out that Dumbledore's huge mistake was not so much trusting Snape, but putting on the horcrux ring which also happened to be one of the Hallows, which according to Snape meant he had a year to live. The Hallows also explains why Dumbledore allowed himself to be so easily disarmed by Draco! Unknown to Voldemort, he made Draco the heir to the wand so that only Draco (who Dumbledore belives is not a killer) could wield its power.

WOW WOW WOW! The Elder Wand just adds such an interesting twist to everything, doesn't it!

I agree with amm1 that the huge pensieve montage was a bit clunky. I think some of this information could have been spread throughout the series a bit more for the sake of narrative flow. But Jo probably wrote it this way because she wanted everyone to wonder about Snape up until the very end. She likes to manipulate our response by withholding information and then dropping it all on you at a crucial point.

I think maybe alot of mystery novels are like this, and some manga/anime films as well. The most excellent TV series LOST also comes to mind. In Jo's case, this makes for a thrilling read, but sometimes at the expense of narrative pacing. I think this is a minor flaw in her overall writing style, but it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the story one bit; it's just a few things I might have done differently. Choosing to limit everything to Harry's perspective makes for difficult plot exposition at times, because there's only so many times Harry can realistically eavesdrop at just the right moment, or get helpful clues from his scar connection. Having multiple narratives to give you more of a bird's eye view might have been more efficient (although not necessarily "better"). This seems to be a common thing in high fantasy/mythology. With Tolkien, you are getting alot of the stuff that is limited to Frodo's perspective, and there are some rather long-winded passages in Lord of the Rings, for example, where Gandalf or someone just goes on and on explaining something that happened months ago. With Jo,it's not quite so long-winded, but realistically I don't think Harry and Voldemort would have had this in depth conversation that explains everything - they woulda just gone for it wouldn't they?

Overall though, I am very happy with the way everything was wrapped up. Well done, Jo! You've given us one for the ages!

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-22-2007 08:44 PM

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-22-2007 08:50 PM
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Well, I expect even Voldy was curious about what the hell was going on. I mean, Harry's suddenly alive, and Voldy can't seem to hurt anyone, and that gave Harry an opening for the long, awesome conversation that followed.

I found the final battle gratifying; I never thought there would be a real duel, more of a...well, what happened. I suspected Harry would die for a bit, then would come back to life, which was VERY gratifying...though I never believed that he was a Horcrux. That was a nice, "you didn't know EVERYTHING, now, did you?" surprise. I loved the way that J.K. foreshadowed Harry's using the Expelliarmus spell.

Whoops, bit off-topic there!