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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


phrodo41 wrote:

I was especially shocked when he killed the Muggle studies teacher! But then, what choice did he have.



I read this as Voldemort doing the killing. Voldemort was the one who had his wand out and the Muggle teacher had been turned away from Snape at the end. This is one of many times in the books where Voldemort kills.

Looking back at this scene, one can see how terrible it must have been for Snape to be in such a situation where he can't help. We sort of see that in a statement Snape made to Dumbledore, though of course Snape was not referring to the Muggle studies teacher as this statement was made before that incident.

"Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?"

"Lately only those whom I could not save," said Snape.
DH CH 33


Not only do we see Snape in a situation where he can't help save a fellow teacher, Snape has to watch Nagini going for her body. Wonder if that scene ran through Snape's mind when he was looking up at Nagini in her cage. What a horrible way for a person to die.
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adribetty394
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

MK guys this may seem weird but i LOVE to cry when i read HP ...so if YOU like to cry :here's the trick.

Read as you normally would, and when you read the endof 'The Prince's Tale' go back and reread Sev's death. TaDa perfect for crying over Sev. I think he was after all , the reason behind Dumbledore's "the power of love" rants. :smileyhappy:
~*~it's the unknow we fear when we look upon death and darkness~*~
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phrodo41
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

It really looked like Snape doing the killing in that scene, the way Charity was begging Snape for mercy, "Severus, please," just like before. She was facing Snape, Snape was looking cold and unaffected, she turns away, and then "avada kedavra."

I guess it really doesn't make that much difference in the story, it wasn't the kind of situation where Snape had much of a choice.
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rosedown
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Does anyone know if JKR has mentioned Dickens as an influence?

I saw a few parallels between the Lily/Severus relationship with the relationship between Lucie and Sydney Carton in A Tale of Two Cities. Carton is basically a despicable man until he falls in love with Lucie. Lucie never returns his feelings but Sydney, in the end, dies so that Lucie can be happy with Darnay. Sydney dies a hero; his love for Lucie redeems him.

In the same way, Severus's love for Lily redeems him. Alan Rickman will now have a piece of my heart forever after playing Col. Brandon from Sense and Sensibliity and now Severus Snape. I can't wait to see movie seven.
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]

amm1 wrote:
"Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?"

"Lately only those whom I could not save," said Snape.




But Snape should darn well be shocked. This was the man who rebuked him for caring nothing for the deaths of others, so long as he got what he wanted. DD is, in effect, doing (or appearing to do) the same thing. Snape's complaint of having been used all along is right on. I know we find out later on DD "knew" that Harry could not really die, but still... it still feels like a betrayal.

One other thing- if Snape really valued Lily's friendship THAT MUCH, why did he not break it off with the Death Eaters and try to live a more honorable life? (I mean BEFORE she died). It was the one thing that might, *possibly*, have undone the damage of that careless word.

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-23-2007 12:57 PM
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



StoryMing wrote:
One other thing- if Snape really valued Lily's friendship THAT MUCH, why did he not break it off with the Death Eaters and try to live a more honorable life? (I mean BEFORE she died). It was the one thing that might, *possibly*, have undone the damage of that careless word.

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-23-2007 12:57 PM




I don't think it was possible for Snape to completely leave the world of the Dark Arts and the companionship he felt within that group. He would have been a fish out of water anywhere else until he got a position at Hogwarts, and even at Hogwarts he was always a bit of a loner.
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phrodo41
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]

StoryMing wrote:

amm1 wrote:
"Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?"

"Lately only those whom I could not save," said Snape.




But Snape should darn well be shocked. This was the man who rebuked him for caring nothing for the deaths of others, so long as he got what he wanted. DD is, in effect, doing (or appearing to do) the same thing. Snape's complaint of having been used all along is right on. I know we find out later on DD "knew" that Harry could not really die, but still... it still feels like a betrayal.

One other thing- if Snape really valued Lily's friendship THAT MUCH, why did he not break it off with the Death Eaters and try to live a more honorable life? (I mean BEFORE she died). It was the one thing that might, *possibly*, have undone the damage of that careless word.

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-23-2007 12:57 PM




I think this is a valid point. Snape never did try to distance himself from Voldy or the dark arts when he had the chance, despite his feelings for Lily. I guess we will never know why, but I'm sure it had to do with rejection from Lily. Imagine if she'd chosen him instead of James! The tragedy is that he got in too deep with Voldy and was never able to dig his way out, even if he wanted to.

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-23-2007 01:06 PM
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]
I think it was Voldemort who AK'd Charity Burbage. Poor Snape had to watch.

Anyone suppose, if Sev had never taken up w. the Death Eaters, Lily might have ended up with him instead of James? Kind of an icky thought... but then maybe she'd have cleaned him up? Still, I never got the sense that SHE cared about HIM the same way that he did for her. Friends, yes, like Harry and Hermione, but not "more".

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-23-2007 01:14 PM
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



phrodo41 wrote:
I think this is a valid point. Snape never did try to distance himself from Voldy or the dark arts when he had the chance, despite his feelings for Lily. I guess we will never know why, but I'm sure it had to do with rejection from Lily. Imagine if she'd chosen him instead of James! The tragedy is that he got in too deep with Voldy and was never able to dig his way out, even if he wanted to.




I think he may not have had the emotional maturity to realize the chance he had. All he knew is he had lost Lily- irretrievably. I suppose this would have made him cling all the tighter to the only source of "friendship" and "acceptance" he had left...

poor Snape. :smileysad:
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Re: SPOILER! DON'T READ IF NOT DONE WITH BOOK!


Harrypotteraholic wrote:
I HATE VOLDEMORT!!!!! I liked Snape, and Voldemort murdered him, that son of a female dog. If you ask me Voldemort deserved what he got. Fred, Mad-Eye, Lupin, Tonks, Snape Colin, Dobby, And Poor Hedwig Didn't. Man, All my fave background charecters died! I HATE Voldemort! I also hate Nagini the slithering murderer. I'd make her in to a pair of snakeskin boots if i could. *sigh* it was NOT perfect it would have been perfect if snape had lived that dratted snake. Plus on Snape loving lily. Well, I thought i was hallucinating when i read that. but in the end he's a good guy. Ever since Voldemort said he was hunting the potters he was a good guy. I mean if i were snape thats what i would have done if Voldermort was setting off to murder my best friend.


I agree that it would have been nice to have Snape live, but think about this. Without his death, Harry wouldn't have been able to enter his memories. That was where the truth was. So, I think Snape's death was essential to the story. But then, so was the snake's!!! grin
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Emrys
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Re: The Snape Thread

I agree, Proper-T. I cried. To finally have all the questions answered about Professor Snape was so emotional. For me, anything less would have been extremely disappointing. I knew he was a good guy!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Message Edited by Proper-T on 07-22-2007 11:15 PM

Saddest Page in Harry Potter History... 658
"Look... at.. me..."- Severus Snape
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pack6irl
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Re: SPOILER! DON'T READ IF NOT DONE WITH BOOK!

Okay the whole chapter of Snape and lily I loved it. I cried almost all the way through it. To see the love this boy had long before school, for the little girl who would be Harry's mom someday. As I read it and think of all the things that he did to protect Harry. I feel, now, that he never really hated him he was just trying to block the pain he felt over lily and to be close to Harry would have at (some point early on in the books) have had bring that relationship out. We all loved to hate Snape, she could not take that from the readers to early. As for the exchange of Harry and Snape it was perfect. When did he ever have last words to any of the people he loved that died, the only person I remember him having last words to was voldy, and not ever any of the people that he cared for. Snape was the bravest of all the order members he was risking his life everyday to keep Harry safe. And in the end of his life he wanted Harry to know that he ,Snape, loved his mom. So was it to see lily's green eyes one more time, or was it so even with out words, Harry could see the sincerity that he had for what Harry was about to see. I guess that is what we all have to make of it ourselves. I was so glad that he was a good person in the end. I always liked him, even when I hated him.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I noticed that too. Last night I started reading DH outloud to my boyfriend and that really struck me. Poor Snape.


phrodo41 wrote:
It really looked like Snape doing the killing in that scene, the way Charity was begging Snape for mercy, "Severus, please," just like before. She was facing Snape, Snape was looking cold and unaffected, she turns away, and then "avada kedavra."

I guess it really doesn't make that much difference in the story, it wasn't the kind of situation where Snape had much of a choice.


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Re: SPOILER! DON'T READ IF NOT DONE WITH BOOK!

[ Edited ]
But I think if Snape had lived, he and Harry could have worked it out and become friends at some point. If Snape had lived he could have shown him the memories also.



DSaff wrote:

I agree that it would have been nice to have Snape live, but think about this. Without his death, Harry wouldn't have been able to enter his memories. That was where the truth was. So, I think Snape's death was essential to the story. But then, so was the snake's!!! grin



Message Edited by PattyBNUChick on 07-23-2007 01:41 PM
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



rosedown wrote:
Does anyone know if JKR has mentioned Dickens as an influence?

I saw a few parallels between the Lily/Severus relationship with the relationship between Lucie and Sydney Carton in A Tale of Two Cities. Carton is basically a despicable man until he falls in love with Lucie. Lucie never returns his feelings but Sydney, in the end, dies so that Lucie can be happy with Darnay. Sydney dies a hero; his love for Lucie redeems him.

In the same way, Severus's love for Lily redeems him. Alan Rickman will now have a piece of my heart forever after playing Col. Brandon from Sense and Sensibliity and now Severus Snape. I can't wait to see movie seven.




Check out the pre-Deathly Hallows post at HogwartsProfessor.com, in which Rowling's love for Tale of Two Cities is discussed (as well as a prediction of several beheadings in Deathly Hallows) http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=89 I think Sydney Carton is the model for Severus, hence his getting it in the neck by Nagini. You are certainly correct in making the Tale of Two Cities link with Deathly Hallows!
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



BillP wrote:
Someone requested a thread just for Snape...

Message Edited by Bill_T on 07-21-2007 11:24 PM




Severus was the major subject of speculation in Fandom through Half-Blood Prince and the Interlibrum. The short-shrift and last minute disposal of this character and the all-in-one memory stream Harry glides through in the Pensieve are perhaps THE major failing of the book: Snape's absence.

But what else could she do? Just like the films, Severus steals every stage he is on and this isn't just because Radcliffe isn't a Rickman (or even in his league). Telling the Severus story properly was essentially impossible without distracting and subtracting from Harry's story. And that was what this adventure was about, right?

That it was all dumped at the end, and, whatever the Lily-Snape FanFic folk like to say, the connection between the two was entirely uncanonical (however frequently conjectured!), breaks one of the "rules" of good fiction, namely, "you cannot hold back clues the readers need until the solution of the mystery." From such a wonderful story-teller, I thought this was just poor story telling.

But, again, I don't see how else she could have done it without Severus stealing Harry's stage (again) or otherwise diminishing the story line, which this year was about the Hallows.
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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


JohnGranger wrote:

Severus was the major subject of speculation in Fandom through Half-Blood Prince and the Interlibrum. The short-shrift and last minute disposal of this character and the all-in-one memory stream Harry glides through in the Pensieve are perhaps THE major failing of the book: Snape's absence.

But what else could she do? Just like the films, Severus steals every stage he is on and this isn't just because Radcliffe isn't a Rickman (or even in his league). Telling the Severus story properly was essentially impossible without distracting and subtracting from Harry's story. And that was what this adventure was about, right?

That it was all dumped at the end, and, whatever the Lily-Snape FanFic folk like to say, the connection between the two was entirely uncanonical (however frequently conjectured!), breaks one of the "rules" of good fiction, namely, "you cannot hold back clues the readers need until the solution of the mystery." From such a wonderful story-teller, I thought this was just poor story telling.

But, again, I don't see how else she could have done it without Severus stealing Harry's stage (again) or otherwise diminishing the story line, which this year was about the Hallows.




I think you are absolutely right on the above.

I do believe JKR was very much aware of Snape's appeal and there was no way she was going to let anyone steal the show from Harry. But would it have hurt for it not to have been so condensed and rushed? Could we not even be told if anyone went back for Snape's body? The world rejoices and he's dead in the blasted Shrieking Shack, with no one to care.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



JohnGranger wrote:
That it was all dumped at the end, and, whatever the Lily-Snape FanFic folk like to say, the connection between the two was entirely uncanonical (however frequently conjectured!), breaks one of the "rules" of good fiction, namely, "you cannot hold back clues the readers need until the solution of the mystery." From such a wonderful story-teller, I thought this was just poor story telling.

But, again, I don't see how else she could have done it without Severus stealing Harry's stage (again) or otherwise diminishing the story line, which this year was about the Hallows.




If half of her readers had already believed that Snape loved Lily based upon clues from other books, and if the author gives the biggest clue about this (the doe Patronus) early in the book, how do you reckon that she didn't give the necessary clues until the solution of the mystery? I wasn't surprised at all!
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

If half of her readers had already believed that Snape loved Lily based upon clues from other books, and if the author gives the biggest clue about this (the doe Patronus) early in the book, how do you reckon that she didn't give the necessary clues until the solution of the mystery? I wasn't surprised at all!


Good for you! I guess I'm just a little slow. Can you help me out? Please explain the "clues" of a Severus/Lily relationship in previous books and how the Doe Patronus was a pointer to Snape; these markers went over my head... Faux consensus among FanFic folk doesn't equate to canon evidence, right?
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hihi
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



JohnGranger wrote:
If half of her readers had already believed that Snape loved Lily based upon clues from other books, and if the author gives the biggest clue about this (the doe Patronus) early in the book, how do you reckon that she didn't give the necessary clues until the solution of the mystery? I wasn't surprised at all!


Good for you! I guess I'm just a little slow. Can you help me out? Please explain the "clues" of a Severus/Lily relationship in previous books and how the Doe Patronus was a pointer to Snape; these markers went over my head... Faux consensus among FanFic folk doesn't equate to canon evidence, right?





Well, in OotP, his worst memory was him calling Lily a person of no magical ancestors, or muggle born. It may take me a while to think of the others....