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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


JohnGranger wrote:
If half of her readers had already believed that Snape loved Lily based upon clues from other books, and if the author gives the biggest clue about this (the doe Patronus) early in the book, how do you reckon that she didn't give the necessary clues until the solution of the mystery? I wasn't surprised at all!


Good for you! I guess I'm just a little slow. Can you help me out? Please explain the "clues" of a Severus/Lily relationship in previous books and how the Doe Patronus was a pointer to Snape; these markers went over my head... Faux consensus among FanFic folk doesn't equate to canon evidence, right?




Ok, here is a simplified version of how I came to the conclusion I did:

1) Dumbledore told Harry that his parents' death was Snape's greatest regret. We knew that he could not have regretted the death of James, so it had to have been his mother's death that Snape regretted.

2) Snape's "worst memory" included two things, the harrassment of the Marauders and the awful comment he made to Lily. We knew that the harrassment from the Marauders went on for years, so why was this particular memory his worst? It had to have been because of what he had said to Lily. Lily's reaction was deep hurt, and Snape's comment was just the kind of thing that a humiliated Slytherin adolescent male would say in public without thinking -- it struck me as also something that he might try to apologize for later.

3) Snape always made comments about James, but never said a bad word about Harry's mother.

4) Voldemort gave Lily the chance to live. I believed that Snape had asked him to spare her.

5) The Doe Patronus -- no voice came with it, so that person did not want to be identified. A Patronus used as a messenger is magic which was only taught to people in the Order. It would not have come from anyone who Harry would regard as a friend. Snape was one hated person who we knew had access to Dumbledore's office and the sword and would know how to use a Patronus as a messenger. We know of only one other deer Patronus, the stag, the representation of James. The doe could have easily been a representation of the stag's wife, Lily.

There were other more roundabout things, but that was pretty much my logic...
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JohnGranger
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Wonderful! Thank you for the simplified version.
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cheerleader
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Re: The Snape Thread



preyel wrote:
i loved the fact that Albus's middle name was Severus



See? This bothered me. Okay, so he wasn't a bad guy. However, he was still horrible to Harry for 7 years! I can understand that Harry gained some respect for Snape, but thought this was so far-fetched. Snape didn't care at all about Harry...he just wanted to protect what was Lily's. He still resented him & hated James. Maybe I'm thinking too much like a parent, but if someone tormented me like that for so long, regardless of their reasons, there's no way in the world I'd name my child after them!
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Tasses
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

In Order Of The Phoenix ---- UK adult paperback version p. 40:

Another clue was Aunt Petunia's statement when Harry tells the Dursleys that Dementors attacked Dudley. When Vernon asks what Dementors are, PETUNIA answers, "They guard the wizard prison." Shock follows and then she explains that, "I heard - that awful boy - tellling HER about them." Harry yells at her to call his parents by their names, she just wrinkles that nose. BUT BUT BUT, we learn from the pensieve memory that Lily and James were still not dating when he was a 'boy.' PLUS, I felt she would have said "his no-good father" like previous books.
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phrodo41
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Re: The Snape Thread

I think this just speaks for Harry's maturity level, to be able to forgive Snape once he knew the facts. I doubt he would have been able to forgive so easily had he not been through such an ordeal; or had the information in Snape's memories not been pivotal in defeating Voldy.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I understand why some people didn't like the way Rowling crammed Snape's role into just a few chapters, but...what did he need to do? He didn't want Harry to know, at least not while Snape was still alive. We already had enough clues to guess that there was SOME sort of Severus/Lily connection. We couldn't run into him in Book Seven until the last few chapters, because Snape was Headmaster, remember?

I enjoyed the Pensieve scene; it answered a lot of questions in a very interesting way.
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Psychee
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Re: The Snape Thread



cheerleader wrote:
See? This bothered me. Okay, so he wasn't a bad guy. However, he was still horrible to Harry for 7 years! I can understand that Harry gained some respect for Snape, but thought this was so far-fetched. Snape didn't care at all about Harry...he just wanted to protect what was Lily's. He still resented him & hated James. Maybe I'm thinking too much like a parent, but if someone tormented me like that for so long, regardless of their reasons, there's no way in the world I'd name my child after them!




In addition to the remarks that Phrodo made, which I agree with, I think you need to pull back just a little to see this perspective:

Albus Severus is only 11, so Harry had 8 years of distance away from Snape's torments. The thing is, after rotten people are dead, the things they did worth honoring start to become a whole lot bigger in your mind that the petty rotten things they did to hurt you. You take them as a package... and you start to remember their rotteness with a certain degree of humor, while trying never to forget their heroism.

As a reader, I can't forgive him for any of the rotten things he did to Harry and the others, because I'm in "protect Harry" mode. But I can sure understand Harry himself forgetting about Snape's faults eight years later enough to name his kid after him.
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sarahn1080
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Re: The Snape Thread



cheerleader wrote:


preyel wrote:
i loved the fact that Albus's middle name was Severus



See? This bothered me. Okay, so he wasn't a bad guy. However, he was still horrible to Harry for 7 years! I can understand that Harry gained some respect for Snape, but thought this was so far-fetched. Snape didn't care at all about Harry...he just wanted to protect what was Lily's. He still resented him & hated James. Maybe I'm thinking too much like a parent, but if someone tormented me like that for so long, regardless of their reasons, there's no way in the world I'd name my child after them!




I wouldn't say that Snape was horrible to him...he just didn't particularly like him. Harry was way more rude to Snape...blaming him for everything that ever went wrong, and never seeing him as good in any way. Snape also saw a lot of James in Harry...just like Sirius did, and Snape hated James...seeing all the things he did to him I don't blame him either. So I'm sure Snape was always conflicted about his feelings for Harry. Either way he still looked after him in his own way.
Sarah
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Re: The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]
Er...I think Snape was an amazing guy, and he's one of my favorite characters, but...he did NOT like Harry, by any means. His last words were, quite literally, the most civil ones he ever used towards Harry. And in the Pensieve scene where he shows the doe Patronus to Dumbledore, he makes it fairly obvious that Harry has not, in all the time they had together, grown on him. He hated James, he loved Lily, and the combination of those things would make Harry a symbol...OMG, thought flash!

Harry symbolized, for Snape, everything that had ever gone wrong in his life. He hated James, and that side of Harry would always recall memories of all the torment Snape went through because of him.

Seeing Harry's eyes would remind him of the worst decision he ever made, and of the one person that ever loved him, the one person that both ruined and saved him. He saw, every time he looked into Harry's eyes, the one person HE ever loved. He saw Lily Evans, and this would make him both sad and angry, and, being the imperfect person he was, he would use Harry as an outlet for these negative emotions, just as Harry used Dudley (see the first chapter of Book 5) as an outlet for his pent-up emotions, his frustration at being stuck at Privet Drive.

Snape is probably the best-constructed character I've ever seen. Anyone else agree?

Message Edited by RiftDoggy on 07-23-2007 05:46 PM
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gniff
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Re: SPOILER! DON'T READ IF NOT DONE WITH BOOK!


PattyBNUChick wrote:
But I think if Snape had lived, he and Harry could have worked it out and become friends at some point. If Snape had lived he could have shown him the memories also.
For all his physical courage, I don't think Snape had the emotional ("moral" ?) courage to admit he was wrong, or to tell anyone how much he loved Lily. He had been humiliated by James and Sirius, and Harry was as much a living reminder of James as of Lily. What must Snape have felt looking Harry in the eyes? What must Snape-the-Legilimens have felt in the Potions lesson when Harry was crushing scarab beetles and imagining that each one was Snape's face?

And Harry owed Snape an apology of sorts; he had looked into Snape's memories and seen nearly the worst of his father, and it would be his duty, I think, to own up to that. Not to stop loving his father, but to admit that his father was flawed, and had been cruel to Snape. Somehow, I don't think that Snape would want that apology unless it was forced from Harry; freely given, I think it would be more than he could bear.

John Granger, what say you? Could Severus Snape and Harry Potter ever have been genuinely reconciled?
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Proper-T
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Some people have mentioned that if Sev realy loved Lily he would have done something to try and leave the DE's...

Did we not find out in OotP that there's only one way out of being a Death Eater? And that answer is Death. Snape may have felt bad for Lily's dying even resposible, but DD managed to use that feeling for what he could... and so Snape never even tried to leave the Death Eater's because DD told him it would be the only way he could do right by Lily.

Sure I wish things could have been better in his life, he's my favorite adult character, but his role as Death Eater was important and needed. Had he quit we probably would'vce never known him. Look at Regulus...

And the Doe Patronus should have been easy enough to figure out, JK mentioned his Patronus would be important.

My only wish is that Harry and Snape could have spoken...
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I don't think Snape was really a DE after he went to DD with remorse. Sure, he played the part, but I don't think he was a DE at heart anymore.


Proper-T wrote:
Some people have mentioned that if Sev realy loved Lily he would have done something to try and leave the DE's...

Did we not find out in OotP that there's only one way out of being a Death Eater? And that answer is Death. Snape may have felt bad for Lily's dying even resposible, but DD managed to use that feeling for what he could... and so Snape never even tried to leave the Death Eater's because DD told him it would be the only way he could do right by Lily.

Sure I wish things could have been better in his life, he's my favorite adult character, but his role as Death Eater was important and needed. Had he quit we probably would'vce never known him. Look at Regulus...

And the Doe Patronus should have been easy enough to figure out, JK mentioned his Patronus would be important.

My only wish is that Harry and Snape could have spoken...


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Proper-T
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

No never at heart... that's true. And I liked him all the more because of it :smileyhappy:

My only wish is that Harry and Snape could have spoken...




PattyBNUChick wrote:
I don't think Snape was really a DE after he went to DD with remorse. Sure, he played the part, but I don't think he was a DE at heart anymore

I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I just don't think that dialogue between Snape and Harry could have happened in the way so many people seem to have wanted it to happen. Maybe someone (a fan yearning for this) should try to write it and see if it is even possible...
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I wish they had spoken too. I'm sure it would have taken time, maybe years, but with Snape's memories alone and the knowledge of what he had done, (don't know what happened in the ensuing 19 years), he named his child after him and said he was the bravest man Harry ever knew. I was really hoping Snape would have lived and I certainly think they would have become friends.



Proper-T wrote:
No never at heart... that's true. And I liked him all the more because of it :smileyhappy:

My only wish is that Harry and Snape could have spoken...




PattyBNUChick wrote:
I don't think Snape was really a DE after he went to DD with remorse. Sure, he played the part, but I don't think he was a DE at heart anymore




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Proper-T
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]
I'm actually in the middle of creating ths dialogue.. but to sum up the finer points of it:

Snape and Harry meet wands drawn... arguing as they always have argued, whie catsing spells.

One of them finally catches the other.

If Snape is the winner, he tells Harry what he needs to know, and then leaves after making sure Harry can not follow... Snape still dies by Voldy's hand.

If Harry is the winner, he wants to kill Snape but can't bring himself to do it (like
when he had Sirius at wandpoint). He breaks down and asks 'Snape why he did what he did?' Snape says nothing, so Harry does Legilimen's and see's the memories anyways...
Snape dies by Voldy's hand still, just as Harry knows the truth.
--

I wish Snape hadn't died that way, but I wouldn't change that... as it was, Harry didn't know what was in the memories. I just wanted Harry to get that understanding while they're both still alive... I can't speak for anyone else's thought process, this is just what I hoped for...



Psychee wrote:
I just don't think that dialogue between Snape and Harry could have happened in the way so many people seem to have wanted it to happen. Maybe someone (a fan yearning for this) should try to write it and see if it is even possible...



Message Edited by Proper-T on 07-23-2007 07:48 PM
I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
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SnapeFan
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Re: The Snape Thread



amm1 wrote:
I have very mixed emotions about the Snape ending. I've never like the Snape loving Lily angle and I still don't. Sorry. But all I can say is Snape is still by far the best character in my book and it's a crying shame we got this rushed-tell-it-all-at-one-time Pensieve scene.




Here here!!! I couldn't agree more. I felt like Snape's death was rushed and almost an after thought. I really wanted him and Harry to meet each other after it was all done and see each other for who each really was. The only death that really got its due in reverence and time was Dobby. Everyone else was killed and then the story hurriedly moved on. We spent so much time with these characters through the books and movies, that it was really a shock that they were so quickly taken away and seemingly discarded.
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sparklerhlr
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

If Snape told Harry anything Harry might not believe it. the only way for Snape to tell Harry the truth was to give Harry his memories.
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



Proper-T wrote:
Some people have mentioned that if Sev realy loved Lily he would have done something to try and leave the DE's...

Did we not find out in OotP that there's only one way out of being a Death Eater? And that answer is Death.




That was me.
Very true, leaving the D-E's is deadly- BUT I don't think Snape would yet have been in too deep to back out at the time of the Worst Memory- when they were taking their O.W.L's in 5th year. I don't think he would have been branded with a Dark Mark at 15 or 16 years of age (even Draco was in 6th year and most people considered he was far too young to really be a Death Eater). When he lost her friendship, he tried and tried to apologize to her-- ACTIONS might have gotten him farther... Although I can also see why he might have been driven to cling more closely to the only "friendship" and "acceptance" he had left.

On another note, someone mentioned Harry owing Snape an apology. Not sure I can quite say this properly but- vicious and abusive as Snape's treatment of Harry was (and I do not excuse that), Harry still was not entirely fair to Snape either; one indication that Snape might not be as evil as he seemed was when Harry insisted on blaming Snape for Sirius' death- AFTER what he had seen in the pensieve, and the glimpse he had had of Snape's childhood- it was clear to me that we were not getting exacly an objective and unbiased view.
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Luthien
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I was delighted that Snape was good after all! I also liked the Snape-Lily thing (at times I think I'm somewhat of a hopeless romantic). I wish Snape had died with some sort of noble sacrifice, but then, if all the noble sacrifices I wanted had happened, it would have gotten rather boring. I didn't think the Pensieve scene seemed rushed, although I did wish we had seen more of him in the book. I think it touched me the most because I could easily sympathize with both Snape and Lily in the memories. In the first one, when it said that it seemed as though he had planned the conversation for weeks and it hadn't gone right, I really understood how he would have felt, since that's happened to me. And when Lily tells him how she feels about some of the other kids he hung out with, I knew that situation too (although obviously not concerning kids who seemed actually evil). I loved all of those scenes, as well as when Harry tells Voldemort that Snape had been on Dumbledore's side, and also when he has the conversation about being put in Slytherin with Albus.