**SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[Proper-T]

He ight not have been branded yet, but he still knew enough about them, didn't he? Even Lily knew, wwe found that out in the memories he left. She said 'you and your precious little Death Eaters firends-- you don't even deny it!' I think he was as goos as in...

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StoryMing wrote:

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Proper-T wrote:
Some people have mentioned that if Sev realy loved Lily he would have done something to try and leave the DE's...

Did we not find out in OotP that there's only one way out of being a Death Eater? And that answer is Death.

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That was me.
Very true, leaving the D-E's is deadly- BUT I don't think Snape would yet have been in too deep to back out at the time of the Worst Memory- when they were taking their O.W.L's in 5th year. I don't think he would have been branded with a Dark Mark at 15 or 16 years of age (even Draco was in 6th year and most people considered he was far too young to really be a Death Eater). When he lost her friendship, he tried and tried to apologize to her-- ACTIONS might have gotten him farther... Although I can also see why he might have been driven to cling more closely to the only "friendship" and "acceptance" he had left.

On another note, someone mentioned Harry owing Snape an apology. Not sure I can quite say this properly but- vicious and abusive as Snape's treatment of Harry was (and I do not excuse that), Harry still was not entirely fair to Snape either; one indication that Snape might not be as evil as he seemed was when Harry insisted on blaming Snape for Sirius' death- AFTER what he had seen in the pensieve, and the glimpse he had had of Snape's childhood- it was clear to me that we were not getting exacly an objective and unbiased view.

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[StoryMing]

"As good as" in, yes, but not quite past the point of no return... I don't think. Then again I might be wrong too.

Still wanted to see a post-Tower flashback.

[Thomas_T]

I'm sorry, but as I have said elsewhere, I am horribly disappointed that Snape was a good guy. Forgetting killing Dumbledore, Snape has acted horrible and sadistic to many people.
I can understand that he treats Harry badly, because except for his eyes, when he looks at Harry he sees James, but this dose not excuse his abuse, (And yes I say ABUSE, because abuse can be mental as well as physical) of Neville, Hermione, and many other characters through the series. I personally think this sends the message that you can be utterly horrid, and it's ok, as long as you work for the good guys.

And yes I will admit that part of this Rant is because Snape's behavior goes so totally against everything I believe, But come on, there has to be someone out there that agrees with me here.

Message Edited by ShadowCougar on 07-24-2007 01:38 AM

[phrodo41]

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ShadowCougar wrote:
I'm sorry, but as I have said elsewhere, I am horribly disappointed that Snape was a good guy. Forgetting killing Dumbledore, Snape has acted horrible and sadistic to many people.
I can understand that he treats Harry badly, because except for his eyes, when he looks at Harry he sees James, but this dose not excuse his abuse, (And yes I say ABUSE, because abuse can be mental as well as physical) of Neville, Hermione, and many other characters through the series. I personally think this sends the message that you can be utterly horrid, and it's ok, as long as you work for the good guys.

And yes I will admit that part of this Rant is because Snape's behavior goes so totally against everything I believe, But come on, there has to be someone out there that agrees with me here.

Message Edited by ShadowCougar on 07-24-2007 01:38 AM

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Shadow, I've been pondering this as well, since I was a pretty vocal proponent of Bad!Snape. I haven't known what to think for a few days, but now that it's sunk in, what is disturbing to me (and that's ok, I think Jo meant for it to be disturbing) is that if he really loved Lilly he would have at least respected the people that Lilly loved (James and Harry). It's astounding to me that Snape did so much to fight Voldy, just for Lily but with absolutely no regard for any of the people that Lily cared about. The thing that is ultimately important is that Harry made his peace with Snape - but I don't think that much more of Snape as a person because his attitude toward the whole thing didn't seem to change much. Even Dumbledore was disgusted with him at one point. I am happy with the way it's tied up for the sake of storytelling, but I don't think I'm as quick to forgive Snape as Harry is. Am I feeling what Jo intended me to feel about Snape? I think we are supposed to be impressed with Harry for forgiving Snape and admiring his courage, despite his and Snape's mutual loathing. Snape ultimately found his redemption did heroic things, but remains, in my opinion, a "deeply horrible person." He does seem less deeply horrible in DH when he is surrounded by all the death eaters. Remember, he assigned students to detention with Hagrid after they broke into his office to steal the sword! This was the first thing that tipped me off that there might be some good left in there. Like Darth Vader (who also sweeps around in a black robe and was once forced into a double agent role in Revenge of the Sith). Who knows, maybe if Snape had survived the war, he would have been able to work through some of his issues, and at least be able to nod curtly at Harry like Draco during the epilogue. The tragedy for me is that Snape never had this opportunity.

The more I think about it, I feel the same way about Snape as I feel about Darth Vader. He is both a terrifying villain and a deeply tragic anti-hero/redemptive figure. Both walk around in a black cape. Both have experienced horrible losses that haunt them for life. Both killed their respective mentors. Both have at one time been forced into a double agent situation of sorts. Both are enslaved to a purely evil master. Both find redemption through noble deaths of self sacrifice and a share a moment of deep understanding with the protagonist. I think this parallel make me less disappointed with the "heroic" Snape ending.

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-24-2007 02:16 AM

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-24-2007 02:19 AM

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-24-2007 02:22 AM

[PattyBNUChick]

Yeah, but I've said before that there's a possibility that Snape had to show some of that nastiness to keep his status as 'possible Death Eater' going for when Voldemort came back. Do you think that could possibly be part of it?

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ShadowCougar wrote:
I'm sorry, but as I have said elsewhere, I am horribly disappointed that Snape was a good guy. Forgetting killing Dumbledore, Snape has acted horrible and sadistic to many people.
I can understand that he treats Harry badly, because except for his eyes, when he looks at Harry he sees James, but this dose not excuse his abuse, (And yes I say ABUSE, because abuse can be mental as well as physical) of Neville, Hermione, and many other characters through the series. I personally think this sends the message that you can be utterly horrid, and it's ok, as long as you work for the good guys.

And yes I will admit that part of this Rant is because Snape's behavior goes so totally against everything I believe, But come on, there has to be someone out there that agrees with me here.

Message Edited by ShadowCougar on 07-24-2007 01:38 AM

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[RiftDoggy]

What we have to remember is that Snape is a deeply flawed person. He grew up unloved, he was teased throughout his childhood and bullied through adolescence. Lily was the only person who ever loved him; Lily was the only person he ever loved. He always hated James, and Harry was a little walking replica of James, so we can't expect him to love them, or respect them, too.

The fact that he was willing to spend 17 years, give or take, protecting Lily's son, and doing whatever was necessary to do so, more than balances his scale.

[StoryMing]

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ShadowCougar wrote:
I'm sorry, but as I have said elsewhere, I am horribly disappointed that Snape was a good guy. Forgetting killing Dumbledore, Snape has acted horrible and sadistic to many people.
I can understand that he treats Harry badly, because except for his eyes, when he looks at Harry he sees James, but this dose not excuse his abuse, (And yes I say ABUSE, because abuse can be mental as well as physical) of Neville, Hermione, and many other characters through the series. I personally think this sends the message that you can be utterly horrid, and it's ok, as long as you work for the good guys.

And yes I will admit that part of this Rant is because Snape's behavior goes so totally against everything I believe, But come on, there has to be someone out there that agrees with me here.

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Shadowcougar, the thing you have to understand is that Snape being on the "right" side does not make it okay what he did, it does not condone or justify or excuse his abusive behavior. Severus Snape is, as others have said, a deeply flawed and even horrible person, but I personally am far more comfortable with the message that even someone so badly wrong may still be human, may still have his good points, than with the message it would send that DD's trust was misplaced; that love is idiotic, foolish and weak.

Perhaps I have little right to talk; I have never undergone either the kind of abuse described in these books, nor the worse abuse that I know happens in real life. But this I have learned from those who HAVE been there: When we attempt to look on our enemies with the eyes of compassion, when we try to look beyond the bad deeds to see the (hurt, perhaps seriously wounded and maimed) humanity in even the very worst of people, we can begin to heal our own pain. When we write them off as monsters, as "Them", as inhuman, as irredeemably Other, we take the first step to becoming like them ourselves.

And no Patty, I don't believe it was an act put on for the Death Eaters; the depth of Snape's loathing was as genuine as the depth of his love.

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-24-2007 10:20 AM

[RiftDoggy]

Yes. That's what makes Harry...well, Harry, and what makes Tom Riddle Voldemort. Harry can sympathise with Snape, even with the early Voldy, but the other two cannot. What differentiates Snape from Voldemort is his ability to love, even after the one he loves is dead.

I wouldn't call Snape a horrible person, he's just been saddled in a very turbulent situation (he's protecting Harry because of Lily, but he absolutely hates Harry because he looks exactly like James).

[snider_kr]

I always knew snape was good and as the end was nearing I do admit I was waiting for the blow...good Or evil? I am so glad we got to see both into more of snapes and dumbledores past. I wasn't surprised snape did not know about the horocruxes. dumbledore was very good at only releasing certain information when needed.

But anyways...snapes Interaction to petunia was a surprise to me...i Didn't even realize he was one of the reason she hated the magical world. Not to mention she felt that lily left with out her...i Wonder whatever happened to the dursleys?

[Harry_Potter_F…]

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Bill_T wrote:
I confess I was surprised to see how little Harry/Snape interplay there was...we got Snape with others, but never really with Harry. I would have liked to see a final conversation/confrontation.

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Very ture but out of what they don't meet Harry gets loads of info he didn't know existed.

[phrodo41]

The lack of closure between Harry and Snape in person is a reminder of the scope of the tragedy that we are looking at. During war time, people don't always get to resolve their issues. It's very very sad

[Thomas_T]

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StoryMing wrote:
Perhaps I have little right to talk; I have never undergone either the kind of abuse described in these books, nor the worse abuse that I know happens in real life. But this I have learned from those who HAVE been there: When we attempt to look on our enemies with the eyes of compassion, when we try to look beyond the bad deeds to see the (hurt, perhaps seriously wounded and maimed) humanity in even the very worst of people, we can begin to heal our own pain. When we write them off as monsters, as "Them", as inhuman, as irredeemably Other, we take the first step to becoming like them ourselves.

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The thing is, I have gone through abuse, the details of which we do not need, and I still do not feel that is an acceptable reason for his actions. he hoped to be is Slytherin, which are those that seek power at any cost. He sought to learn dark magic, and while he regretted calling Lily a mudblood, as she points out, this is what he calls everyone else that is muggleborn, why not her? Remember, Harry was abused too, it seems not that bad, but understand, the first real caring he encounters is from Hagrid. He could have just as easily been just like Snape, but he chose not to. This in my opinion, leaves no one to lay the blame for Snape's actions on, and the way he lived his life, except for Snape. We are all the sum of our choices. He could have chose to be a good person, he chose not to. Even in the end, everything he did was out of selfishness or guilt, to hold to an obsessive love that could never be his.

[Thomas_T]

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snider_kr wrote:
I always knew snape was good...

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But Snape is not Good, just at the end, faithful to Dumbledore, this does not make him good, the person we have seen through 7 books, is no where near in the realm of good.

[JenniG0812]

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Psychee wrote:

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Bill_T wrote:
I confess I was surprised to see how little Harry/Snape interplay there was...we got Snape with others, but never really with Harry. I would have liked to see a final conversation/confrontation.

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I like how she did that part, actually... how could Snape have ever said to Harry that he loved his mother and couldn't stand Harry? The way she did this, we got to see McGonagall give the guy hell for us, we got to see one non-verbal emotional moment between Harry and Snape as he was dying which was probably the most intimate interaction that could have ever occurred between the two, we got to see the whole Snape/Lily/Dumbledore story in one fell swoop of a chapter, and we got to see Harry's final feelings about Snape... could we have asked for more?

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I totally agree. She kept us on our toes, wondering if he was good or evil all the way to the end. I LOVED how she wrote it. It made me so sad that Snape died so... well how do I put it, quick or cruel or odd? I cried from the point were he got the memories until the end of the book. It made me sob when I read Albus Severus. I was just SSSOOO happy that Snape was good.

[JenniG0812]

>
I mean at the moment when Sev asked Harry to 'Look at me' Harry didn't know what he would see in the Pensieve memory. He had still walked over to Snape without a 'definte' opinion on the man... just one real last exchange, for a man who didn't deserve to die like that...

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I too had a very hard time with the way Snape died. It was so... well again I don't have the words to express how I feel about his death. For being such a brave, great man, he died in such a weird-abrupt way.

[cheerleader]

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ShadowCougar wrote:

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StoryMing wrote:
Perhaps I have little right to talk; I have never undergone either the kind of abuse described in these books, nor the worse abuse that I know happens in real life. But this I have learned from those who HAVE been there: When we attempt to look on our enemies with the eyes of compassion, when we try to look beyond the bad deeds to see the (hurt, perhaps seriously wounded and maimed) humanity in even the very worst of people, we can begin to heal our own pain. When we write them off as monsters, as "Them", as inhuman, as irredeemably Other, we take the first step to becoming like them ourselves.

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The thing is, I have gone through abuse, the details of which we do not need, and I still do not feel that is an acceptable reason for his actions. he hoped to be is Slytherin, which are those that seek power at any cost. He sought to learn dark magic, and while he regretted calling Lily a mudblood, as she points out, this is what he calls everyone else that is muggleborn, why not her? Remember, Harry was abused too, it seems not that bad, but understand, the first real caring he encounters is from Hagrid. He could have just as easily been just like Snape, but he chose not to. This in my opinion, leaves no one to lay the blame for Snape's actions on, and the way he lived his life, except for Snape. We are all the sum of our choices. He could have chose to be a good person, he chose not to. Even in the end, everything he did was out of selfishness or guilt, to hold to an obsessive love that could never be his.

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Well put. Which is why I still stand by my earlier belief that there's no way Harry would name his son after him. I haven't suffered abuse, but I am a parent of 3 young children. Regardless of Snape's motivation, there's still no excuse for what he put Harry through. I just don't buy it that he'd ever "forgive & forget" no matter how much time passed. Make peace with it? Sure. Come to terms with why Snape did what he did? Possibly. Forget? Never.

[StoryMing]

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ShadowCougar wrote:
The thing is ... I still do not feel that is an acceptable reason for his actions. ... We are all the sum of our choices. He could have chose to be a good person, he chose not to. Even in the end, everything he did was out of selfishness or guilt, to hold to an obsessive love that could never be his.

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You're right, Cougar. It isn't okay. No one is saying it is.

But can you honestly say he didn't suffer enough of the consequence of his choices and actions? Do you really think he had a happy life, being what he was?

And does the fact that he did some inexcusable things have to mean he can't be allowed to be seen as human in ANY way, have ANY redeeming qualities?
It is the Death-Eaters who operate by demonizing, by refusing to see the humanity in those whom they would call worthless, Cougar; those who would be on the side of light and love cannot afford the luxury of hate.

What ultimately is the difference between Snape's treatment of Neville, and Sirius' treatment of Kreatchur? A difference in degree, not in 'kind'. If Sirius can still be seen as a worthwhile human being... if Kreatchur himself after all his treachury may be treated with kindness and compassion... so can Snape.

[RiftDoggy]

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ShadowCougar wrote:

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snider_kr wrote:
I always knew snape was good...

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But Snape is not Good, just at the end, faithful to Dumbledore, this does not make him good, the person we have seen through 7 books, is no where near in the realm of good.

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When people say that he's faithful to Dumbledore, they're not quite right. I don't think Snape loved or hated Dumbledore, they were simply two people with the same goal: keep Harry alive. Dumbledore was simply Snape's superior, and Snape reported to him.

Snape was loyal to Lily. That is what makes him what he is, that is why he, in the end, earns Harry's respect. He dedicated all of his life to righting a wrong that he had committed. I doubt he ever forgave himself, and that's something else I can sympathise with. Snape's a more realistic character than many others, and is undoubtedly one of the three or four most complex in the series.

Snape isn't evil, and he isn't pure good, either. He's a hero. We don't have to like him, but we can respect him. I don't think anyone can pass judgement on him until they go through what he has; being directly responsible for the death of the person you love most is a kind of personal hell, a wound that almost never heals.

The same goes for Dumbledore, actually. His burden is lessened by uncertainty, he doesn't know if he killed Ariana, but he was at least partially responsible for her death.

[PattyBNUChick]

I guess Dumbledore could have had his wand examined by someone he trusted to see if he actually killed her, but it was better off not knowing most likely.

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RiftDoggy wrote:
The same goes for Dumbledore, actually. His burden is lessened by uncertainty, he doesn't know if he killed Ariana, but he was at least partially responsible for her death.

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[Psychee]

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PattyBNUChick wrote:
I guess Dumbledore could have had his wand examined by someone he trusted to see if he actually killed her, but it was better off not knowing most likely.

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RiftDoggy wrote:
The same goes for Dumbledore, actually. His burden is lessened by uncertainty, he doesn't know if he killed Ariana, but he was at least partially responsible for her death.

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I don't think she was actually killed by a killing curse. Neither Aberforth nor Albus would have used that under those conditions. It is more likely to have been caused by some kind of interaction between her own explosive unstable magic and the effect of the magic around her. I imagined that she died from something akin to convulsive electrical discharge.

But you are right, he was afraid to know for sure.