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Thomas_T
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



StoryMing wrote:

What ultimately is the difference between Snape's treatment of Neville, and Sirius' treatment of Kreatchur? A difference in degree, not in 'kind'. If Sirius can still be seen as a worthwhile human being... if Kreatchur himself after all his treachury may be treated with kindness and compassion... so can Snape.



The difference is that Sirius treated Kreacher that way (And wrongly so, I am not a fan of Sirius Black, he is what James would have been if not for deciding to change his life, Sirius never grew up.), Snape treated a whole lot of people that way.
And Kreacher was never traitorous IMHO, he simply responded to those who treated him well.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Yes, and THAT is the connection between Dumbledore and Snape. We see Dumbledore's contempt for Snape in an early Pensieve memory in The Prince's Tale, but I'm sure he eventually connected the dots and began to feel for Snape...that's why he trusted him so much.

Does anyone else see Dumbledore's acting skills as a bit funny now? His final scene in HBP seems a bit...sly. "Oh, I have complete trust in him (to kill me)!" Every time someone tried to tell him that Snape was a traitor, he was probably chuckling inside.
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alexandra
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Re: The Snape Thread

I actually think the lst scene between Harry and Snape was one of the most perfect scenes in the series. when Snape told Harry to look at him and gave him his memories -- I new for certain that Snape was on Harry's side-- and so did Harry. afew words spoke volumes
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dancingchick094
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Re: The Snape Thread

conversation/confrontation.




I like how she did that part, actually... how could Snape have ever said to Harry that he loved his mother and couldn't stand Harry? The way she did this, we got to see McGonagall give the guy hell for us, we got to see one non-verbal emotional moment between Harry and Snape as he was dying which was probably the most intimate interaction that could have ever occurred between the two, we got to see the whole Snape/Lily/Dumbledore story in one fell swoop of a chapter, and we got to see Harry's final feelings about Snape... could we have asked for more?



______________________________________________________________________________________


Haha. Couldn't have put it better myself. I think that it was so sudden and heartwrenching that anyone who was still saying "Yeah, well Snape is horrible; I hate him," had to swallow their words in awe and sorrow :]
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



ShadowCougar wrote:
The difference is that Sirius treated Kreacher that way (And wrongly so, I am not a fan of Sirius Black, he is what James would have been if not for deciding to change his life, Sirius never grew up.), Snape treated a whole lot of people that way. And Kreacher was never traitorous IMHO, he simply responded to those who treated him well.




The bottom line is, hurting people tend to do hurtful things to others.
I am not saying this excuses the behavior; you're right, everyone has a choice, and we're all responsible for our own actions... but it isn't everyone who manages to rise above their circumstances, as Harry does.

I guess-- I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble identifying with where you're coming from, your disappointment that Snape turned out to be a better guy than he looked, bcs I'm so fascinated with the depth and complexity of the character JK has created. And bcs I deeply, deeply wish to believe that everyone, even the very worst person, has potential worth and is not beyond the possibility of redemption.
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



RiftDoggy wrote:
Snape's a more realistic character than many others, and is undoubtedly one of the three or four most complex in the series. Snape isn't evil, and he isn't pure good, either. He's a hero. We don't have to like him, but we can respect him. I don't think anyone can pass judgement on him until they go through what he has; being directly responsible for the death of the person you love most is a kind of personal hell, a wound that almost never heals.




Well said, RiftDoggy.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Can't say I would blame him in the least.


Psychee wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I guess Dumbledore could have had his wand examined by someone he trusted to see if he actually killed her, but it was better off not knowing most likely.



RiftDoggy wrote:
The same goes for Dumbledore, actually. His burden is lessened by uncertainty, he doesn't know if he killed Ariana, but he was at least partially responsible for her death.







I don't think she was actually killed by a killing curse. Neither Aberforth nor Albus would have used that under those conditions. It is more likely to have been caused by some kind of interaction between her own explosive unstable magic and the effect of the magic around her. I imagined that she died from something akin to convulsive electrical discharge.

But you are right, he was afraid to know for sure.


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Thomas_T
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



StoryMing wrote:

I guess-- I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble identifying with where you're coming from, your disappointment that Snape turned out to be a better guy than he looked, bcs I'm so fascinated with the depth and complexity of the character JK has created. And bcs I deeply, deeply wish to believe that everyone, even the very worst person, has potential worth and is not beyond the possibility of redemption.




That's my problem, Snape is not a better guy. He never regretted his choices in becoming a Death Eater, in being a bigot, or in being a horrible person, he only regretted that those things caused Lily's death. He did not change or become a better person after she died, he just aided Dumbledore out of guilt, not remorse, he hated Harry, and mistreated students, yet I see people on here talking about him being "Good" There was nothing good about this man, Dumbledore just saw a tool he could use.
But I will agree he is a fascinating and complex character, I applaud JK for making a character I can hate this much.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

But how do we know he didn't regret becoming a death eater, I would think that would be one of his greatest regrets after what happened to Lily and she tried to keep him away from the people he became a Death Eater with. I would think he did regret it. But I don't know cuz JKRs got all the answers and we're going to have to wait years : ) Oh the agony of waiting and the ecstasy of finally getting it! : )



ShadowCougar wrote:


StoryMing wrote:

I guess-- I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble identifying with where you're coming from, your disappointment that Snape turned out to be a better guy than he looked, bcs I'm so fascinated with the depth and complexity of the character JK has created. And bcs I deeply, deeply wish to believe that everyone, even the very worst person, has potential worth and is not beyond the possibility of redemption.




That's my problem, Snape is not a better guy. He never regretted his choices in becoming a Death Eater, in being a bigot, or in being a horrible person, he only regretted that those things caused Lily's death. He did not change or become a better person after she died, he just aided Dumbledore out of guilt, not remorse, he hated Harry, and mistreated students, yet I see people on here talking about him being "Good" There was nothing good about this man, Dumbledore just saw a tool he could use.
But I will agree he is a fascinating and complex character, I applaud JK for making a character I can hate this much.


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Kodo_Hai
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I found Snape pathetic. My first thought was “Get Over It”. He really became Snivellus. I preferred him as a dark hero who loved Lilly from afar, who had felt remorse for causing the death of his love and was willing to try and make amends by protecting his son instead he turns out to be obsessive almost to the point of a stalker who at every chance he got sniped at Harry because he looked like his dad, how petty, how pathetic. I had a great deal of trouble trying to feel sorry for him as he offered himself up like a sacrificial lamb. He pulls his wand at Voldemart and does nothing as Voldemart offers him to the snake. I was really disappointed in this plot twist. Before this I thought Snape was the most intriquing and complex character. I was however glad that Harry was able to forgive him and honour his sacrifice.





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H_Potter_2007
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Re: The Snape Thread

Same here..I liked the way J.K. wrote this part..the prince's tale EXPLAINED ALOT! I feel pity for Snape...he actually was helping Harry all along... and Dumbledore too. *sad
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Stacey_C
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Re: The Snape Thread

i'm sorry if someone else has posted this already, but wanted to post before i forgot. someone said they wished snape could have shown harry in his own way what he felt, i think he did. i'm not sure snape could have told harry all of this in any other way. no one else who's died has leaked out their thoughts like that, so i think he did it on purpose. i was kind of surprised that snape and lilly knew each other as kids, that was NOT something i would have guessed at all. i just hope they dont cut too much of this out of the movie, it would kind of kill it for me i think hehe. but oh well. i like the snape out come, it makes me happy!!
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gniff
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


ShadowCougar wrote:
That's my problem, Snape is not a better guy. He never regretted his choices in becoming a Death Eater, in being a bigot, or in being a horrible person, he only regretted that those things caused Lily's death. He did not change or become a better person after she died, he just aided Dumbledore out of guilt, not remorse, he hated Harry, and mistreated students, yet I see people on here talking about him being "Good" There was nothing good about this man, Dumbledore just saw a tool he could use.
But I will agree he is a fascinating and complex character, I applaud JK for making a character I can hate this much.
I don't like Severus Snape, and I don't think I ever will. There are too many deep stains in his character. But he demonstrated breathtaking courage and determined loyalty. Even when told that Harry had to die, he kept his promises.

He was also capable of shame; that is why he made Dumbledore promise that he would never tell anyone of Snape's love for Lily. An immature love, perhaps, or perhaps not. But it seems he feared it would leave him deeply vulnerable, perhaps as a fool who loves. He would not wear his heart on his sleeve.

No, Snape is not Good. Nor is he greatly evil. He is greatly flawed, yet in some ways very, very admirable. That which is admirable does not excuse that which is flawed; that which is flawed cannot completely take away the merit of that which is admirable. We can't pick the yucky parts out of the Snape Stew; their flavors have migrated until not one part is untouched by the others.

Which is why my first post on this thread asked if he was at peace with himself.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



gniff wrote:
No, Snape is not Good. Nor is he greatly evil. He is greatly flawed, yet in some ways very, very admirable. That which is admirable does not excuse that which is flawed; that which is flawed cannot completely take away the merit of that which is admirable. We can't pick the yucky parts out of the Snape Stew; their flavors have migrated until not one part is untouched by the others.




Bravo! Well said!
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ravensilverlight
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Firstly, the "awww" factor - about Harry naming his son Albus Severus. I like to think that Harry finally came to grips with Snape's story, even pitied him and forgave. Then when his son was born, and he saw that this child inherited his eyes - Lily's eyes - he named him after Severus, whose life was lived, and lost, because of those eyes. Awwww.

Also, about Snape's motivations for being so horrible to, well, everyone. Imagine his life. We know from the Occlumency lessons that Snape had an abusive home life. He finds Lily as a child. Someone like him-magical. They connect in the easy, innocent way that children do, with the added "specialness" of being part of the magical world. He can feel important to her, because he explains the wizarding world to her. And she gives him a view of what he wishes he could have; a normal family life. She is his touchstone until he goes to Hogwarts. Maybe even the only person he told about his home life - she seems to know, when she asked if "they" were still fighting.
Then they leave for Hogwarts, and are immediately separated from one another. We have learned, throughout the series, that most of the Houses are kept separate from one another, only sharing a few classes, but not all of them. They have separate common rooms in which to spend their time, so it is only natural that he makes friends with Slytherins and she with Gryffindors. Still he tries to maintain a friendship, even falls in love. But he is sliding down a slippery slope, for once he gets in with the DE, there is no leaving. And finally, he loses her, by accident. And in calling her - and those like her - Mudbloods, we learn what I feel is his biggest motivation. Self loathing. Because, at the end of HBP, doesn't Hermione announce that Eileen Prince married a Muggle? Making Severus Snape a half-blood.
So Snape clings to the "friends" he has left; follows them into service for LV. And is aghast upon learning that LV is going to kill Lily. He has never dropped the torch for her. He pleads with LV to spare her. And he goes to Dumbledore to beg him to protect her. All to no avail. Lily dies.
And on the heels of her death, Snape probably wanted to die too! He could finally leave the DE and be happy about it, because he can't stand the idea of working for LV anymore. How can he spend his life serving someone who killed his only love? Far better to die! But no. Dumbledore convinces him to save that which Lily died for. Perhaps it would have been kinder to Snape to let him die. Because he then has to spend the rest of his life serving LV, and Dumbledore. Voldemort does not have his loyalty; Voldemort killed his Lily. Dumbledore doesn't have his devotion either. Dumbledore uses (remember this is Snape's POV) him to protect Harry. This is just torture! Harry is just like his father. And Snape hated James. Not to mention that DD failed to protect Lily, so he is just as bad in Snape's mind as LV. But the real reason Lily is dead is because of Snape himself.
His whole life is a bunch of "if only"s. If only he hadn't told the prophecy. If only he tried to stop Voldemort harder...if only. He blamed everyone for her death, on the outside, but inside Snape blamed himself. He was never happy. He hated himself for what he had done, what he had become, and what he had to keep doing, on both sides of the war, to protect what Lily loved.
So why was Snape so horrible to Neville, to Hermione, etc.? I think because he didn't know how to be anything else. He hated himself, and when one hates one's self, one tends to hate everyone else too.
Sorry for the rant. It's just how I feel. Snape was not a good guy, or a bad guy. He is the saddest character of all. A pitiable hero.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

EXACTLY! *bows to ravensilverlight*

I mean, we really do underestimate the affect Snape's tragedy had on him. He might as well have killed Lily, and ever since he has been a tortured, hateful, miserable soul. I doubt he's ever been truly happy since, not even once, in all Harry's seventeen years. Snape might have died in a depressing way, but I think being able to see Lily's eyes and KNOWING that he had done right by her, that he had dedicated the rest of his life to Harry's safety, might have assuaged his guilt.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

That keeps making me laugh. Having said that about anyone else wouldn't have made me laugh so much but with Snape's hair and teeth, its just really funny.



gniff wrote:
We can't pick the yucky parts out of the Snape Stew; .


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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

That, and the shampoo bit, made me laugh very hard. Poor Snape. He's a very brave, dedicated guy, but that doesn't mean we have to LIKE him...git.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I don't think it was all about Lily, Snape did save Neville from being strangled by one of the Inquisitorial Squad in Umbridge's office for one thing.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Yes, he saved Neville from DYING...I think for most of his life, Snape was simply bullying as he had been bullied...