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kpeterson32
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: The Snape Thread

I don't like to be wrong. I hate it, in fact. But I can always admit when I am.

I understood where Snape's loyalties lay as soon as the Silver Doe led Harry to the Sword of Gryffindor in the Forest of Dean. I understood it even before Ron showed up and confirmed that the sword was real. I was convinced in Chapter 4 that the Great Snape Debate had officially been decided. But when Harry came across that enimagtic doe, I knew instinctively that it must represent Lily, and that it had been conjured by the last person that had the sword: Snape. I might have taken longer to figure it out if the thought hadn't immediately occurred to me that detention with Hagrid was an uncharacteristically light punishment for three members of Dumbledore's Army breaking into his office and attempting to steal a priceless artifact.

I do not believe that Snape's motives were pure until close to the end. His only thought was always of Lily. He really did dislike Harry deeply, perhaps because the boy was James's son, or maybe just because he, Severus, was not the boy's father. As Dumbledore was certain to mention, if James and Harry had been killed but Lily saved, Severus would have been happy. He would not have mourned the child for any other reason than the despair he would have seen in Lily. But in the end, when it really mattered, Snape did the right thing. And it was fitting that the final thing he saw was Lily's eyes looking into his.

It surprises me that the complete history of Severus and Lily seems to have been circulating the internet for years. It's almost as though JK Rowling herself started that rumor to see how it would be received, never imagining that it would catch on to become such a fiercely debated issue.

At one point, Dumbledore commented to Snape that he fears they Sort the students too early. I wonder if, later in life, Snape might have been Sorted into Gryffindor after all. And would that have made any difference?
---------------------------------
"Oooh, look, a Blibbering Humdinger!" -- Luna Lovegood
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silvernightshade
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Registered: ‎07-13-2007
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Re: The Snape Thread

Well I for one will miss old Snape! He was the one we loved to hate and in the end we hated to feel remorse for his end. I feel the only difference in Snape and Lord Voldy was his feelings of love for Lily. Dumbledore always said that was Lord Voldy's down fall, not being able to love or see that love had power.

As far as the need for a conversation between Harry & Snape there really was no way that would have ever happened. I think if Snape would have lived he would have disappeared and never revealed any of his memories of Harry's mother. OH Snape may have told Harry of Dumbledore's plans, but never his darkest secrets about Lily. I feel that is why he had to die, so that us readers could understand more of his character and blanks left in the story.

Snape never asked Lord Voldy to spare Lily and Harry, just Lily. How could he feel anything for Harry when he was nothing but a reminder of what Snape longed to have with Lily. Snape might have felt Lily would of married him and had his son instead. Who knows? I can see that alone as reason to hate Harry.
Anyway, I loved the books and will pass them down to my grandkids by reading the books with them as I do my own kids.I will buy all the movies and not let them watch them until they have read the book first just like I do my children now. (I'm mean that way...LOL)
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Sev and Lily... I dunno. I don't get the sense that she ever cared about him quite the same way he cared about her. As a friend, yes, deeply, but not as more than. And no, I don't think they ever DID kiss, if they had then that would definitely have been among the memories. But if he'd never become a Death-Eater, never called Lily a Mudblood...? Possible, I guess. He still had a bent for dark-arts though, which I don't think Lily would have put up with...
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GinnyWeaslby
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Qwikpoll

Snape is on the ___________ side


good



Evil




i do not care he is still a git
~Nittwit Oddment BlubberTweak~
~GInny W ~
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StoryMing
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I would still argue that he *IS* a better man than he appeared.
Yes, he did the right thing for the wrong reasons, from thoroughly selfish motives, but still he tried his very utmost to do right. He was deeply flawed, and yes he CHOSE to act out of the wounds of his past, rather than grow beyond them, but he is not at any rate a murderer.

I'm not saying I would ever want to be close friends with him myself- or to have him teaching my kids- but I cannot NOT pity the reasons he did turn out so messed up, nor the living hell his existence must have been every day for the rest of his life; and I cannot deny his courage.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



StoryMing wrote:
I would still argue that he *IS* a better man than he appeared.
Yes, he did the right thing for the wrong reasons, from thoroughly selfish motives, but still he tried his very utmost to do right. He was deeply flawed, and yes he CHOSE to act out of the wounds of his past, rather than grow beyond them, but he is not at any rate a murderer.

I'm not saying I would ever want to be close friends with him myself- or to have him teaching my kids- but I cannot NOT pity the reasons he did turn out so messed up, nor the living hell his existence must have been every day for the rest of his life; and I cannot deny his courage.




I give him credit for his remorse at having caused Lily's death and the risks he took with his own life for three years in order to insure that she had not died in vain. He could have taken the easy way out and committed suicide, which was what he was thinking of doing when he found out she was dead, but instead, he lived with his remorse and shame for 15-16 years, directing his energies toward that day when he could at least stopper the damage his first error had caused.

I'll also give him credit for doing a spectacular job at being a spy in Voldemort's inner circle, and for having saved Dumbledore's life so he could have that last year to insure that Harry had enough information to carry on. He had a formidable intellect.

However, he never learned the real meaning of love; emotionally, he remained very immature and pathologically sadistic in his dealings with most people, but most especially, Harry. The fact that he never emotionally grew while having enjoyed 16 years of Dumbledore influence is mind boggling -- and it says something, I think, about how very deeply disturbed he was...
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Yes, but he didn's spend all his time there, he spent time with His Majesty the King of Nasiness and all his cronies. So Snape had bad influences too.


Psychee wrote:
The fact that he never emotionally grew while having enjoyed 16 years of Dumbledore influence is mind boggling -- and it says something, I think, about how very deeply disturbed he was...


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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



PattyBNUChick wrote:
Yes, but he didn's spend all his time there, he spent time with His Majesty the King of Nasiness and all his cronies. So Snape had bad influences too.


Psychee wrote:
The fact that he never emotionally grew while having enjoyed 16 years of Dumbledore influence is mind boggling -- and it says something, I think, about how very deeply disturbed he was...







But the King of Nastiness was out of the picture for 13 years. Can you imagine being around Dumbledore for that long and never learning to find or even to look for the good in people? He must have had an impenetrable heart!
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Yes I agree. Course, Dumbledore told him that he didnt think Voldemort was gone for good so maybe Snape couldn't open his heart just a crack even for those 13 years. Poor guy. I know, I know he was a jerk, but I feel for him. Hey, at least he ran into Lily, yeah, she died because of the chain of events he started, but if he had never met her I doubt he would have ever been close to anyone. I know people hate Snape, but I just can't get over him being best friends with her, its like so cool.



Psychee wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
Yes, but he didn's spend all his time there, he spent time with His Majesty the King of Nasiness and all his cronies. So Snape had bad influences too.


Psychee wrote:
The fact that he never emotionally grew while having enjoyed 16 years of Dumbledore influence is mind boggling -- and it says something, I think, about how very deeply disturbed he was...







But the King of Nastiness was out of the picture for 13 years. Can you imagine being around Dumbledore for that long and never learning to find or even to look for the good in people? He must have had an impenetrable heart!


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phrodo41
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

what i think is borderline comical about the whole thing, is how Snape was begging Dumbledore not to tell anyone, and Dumbledore's like, are you sure - don't tell anyone the one reason they should trust you? IF you say so severus. I was thinking that if there was a big reason for Snape to trust him, it must be kept secret for security purposes. But instead it's just because Snape was embarrassed.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



phrodo41 wrote:
what i think is borderline comical about the whole thing, is how Snape was begging Dumbledore not to tell anyone, and Dumbledore's like, are you sure - don't tell anyone the one reason they should trust you? IF you say so severus. I was thinking that if there was a big reason for Snape to trust him, it must be kept secret for security purposes. But instead it's just because Snape was embarrassed.




Yeah, I thought that would get to you, Phrodo. The guy's mind was SO messed up. What was he afraid of? Having something in common with others? Everybody loved Lily!
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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



phrodo41 wrote:
I was thinking that if there was a big reason for Snape to trust him, it must be kept secret for security purposes. But instead it's just because Snape was embarrassed.




But what's wrong with that? It's personal and then Harry had to go blab it to everyone.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



amm1 wrote:


phrodo41 wrote:
I was thinking that if there was a big reason for Snape to trust him, it must be kept secret for security purposes. But instead it's just because Snape was embarrassed.




But what's wrong with that? It's personal and then Harry had to go blab it to everyone.




amm1, do you think Harry hurt Snape by exposing his feelings for Lily at that point in the story? Voldemort already knew, and anyone who knew Lily loved her. Is it just the privacy thing? Does anyone have privacy after death?
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phrodo41
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

there's nothing wrong with it, per se. I just found it amusing kind of bizarre to be honest. This crazy war going on, and Snape can't let anyone know he cared about Lilly.
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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


phrodo41 wrote:
there's nothing wrong with it, per se. I just found it amusing kind of bizarre to be honest. This crazy war going on, and Snape can't let anyone know he cared about Lilly.




I know what you mean but part of the problem is the whole 'Snape loving Lily' story stinks and all you get from it is another cheesy line. Don't tell... :smileywink:
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phrodo41
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Maybe . . . Snape/Lily isn't the angle I would have written if it was me instead of Jo, but I think she pulled it off and at least made it interesting.
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littlelis19
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

This was my favorite chapter in the book. I did not believe Snape was ever evil, I never believed DD was begging for his life at the end of number 6. This was my favorite chapter of the book. Finding out that Snape and Lily were that close was mind-blowing...she called him Sev and he referenced their friendship as "best friends". So weird. I loved it though.
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kpeterson32
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I always thought the possibility of Snape loving Lily was laughable and totally outside the realm of where JKR was going with this. But discovering that Spinner's End was close to where the Evans girls grew up, and finding out that Snape had loved Lily since long before their first year at Hogwarts made it less silly, somehow. I think it had to be that way, otherwise I wouldn't have liked it. It seemed so ridiculous to me that Lily would befriend someone as weird as Snape when she first arrived at Hogwarts, especially when they were immediately sorted into different houses. The fact that their relationship started with Severus being the one to inform her of her witchhood made it easier to take, and much less cheesy.

I read the whole "don't tell anyone I loved Lily" much differently than some of you, I guess. To me, it wasn't that Snape was embarassed about having been in love with Lily Potter and not wanting anyone to know about it. In that moment I saw Severus as someone so deeply riddled with guilt over what he had done that he didn't feel like he deserved for anyone to see good in him. The only ones who ever did ended up dead at his hand or by his actions.

Like Harry, my attitude toward Severus Snape is vastly different from where it was just twenty-four hours ago. In the end, I came to know him as someone deeply flawed, but fundamentally good. I've never been more glad to be wrong.

Incidentally, last night, just for fun, I looked back at a journal entry I wrote the night after I finished Half Blood Prince. My eyes just about popped out of my head as I read my own words saying that Snape and Dumbledore must have planned it and that Snape couldn't really be evil. At least not that evil. I didn't remember ever thinking that, but there it was in my own handwriting. Looking back on it now, I remember expressing this thought to my co-workers who immediately told me I was wrong and showed me exactly why, a belief that I became so convinced was right, I completely forgot that I had ever believed differently. And I thought I learned that lesson long ago to always go with my gut instinct...
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"Oooh, look, a Blibbering Humdinger!" -- Luna Lovegood
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Luthien
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



Psychee wrote:
Luthien, in Snape's case, the misperception came from his end first. Remember the scene when he is talking to Dumbledore about Harry? Complaining that Harry is arrogant, thrilled to be a celebrity, rule-breaker, and so forth, and Dumbledore tells him that he is seeing only what he wants to see?

Snape walked into the classroom hating Harry. That wasn't just Harry's perception, that was apparently Dumbledore's impression as well. That very first day of class with Snape, Snape went out of his way to humiliate and bully Harry.

And remember that remark to Hermione when her teeth were growing down to her chin and he said "I don't see the difference"...

I don't think that this is a case of a misperception on Harry's part. He might misperceive Snape's motives for doing things but the cruelty is in the things actually said in front of us as readers and in the things he does to Harry to humiliate him as much as possible.

He also feels nothing for Harry, according to his own statement.

I don't think you can paint this situation with the same brush that you paint the teacher in your life. Sure, kids will always twist a situation with a teacher around so that they are the ones who appear to be victims, but did Harry ever once go to Dumbledore and complain about how he was treated? It's not the same thing...

Just my 2 knuts worth!




Well even I admitted that he definitely seems to hate Harry.

Yes, that line about Hermione is the one that I don't really see any way to get around...

Perhaps I should go back to him having to keep up his Death Eater image! *insane laughter*
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Luthien
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



littlelis19 wrote:
This was my favorite chapter in the book. I did not believe Snape was ever evil, I never believed DD was begging for his life at the end of number 6. This was my favorite chapter of the book. Finding out that Snape and Lily were that close was mind-blowing...she called him Sev and he referenced their friendship as "best friends". So weird. I loved it though.




Thinking of the two of them being best friends almost made me cry, I loved it. The night after I read the book, sections of that chapter just kept replaying themselves in my mind, over and over and over...