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Psychee
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Re: The Snape Thread



RiftDoggy wrote:
Back then, Dumbledore still saw Snape as a freaky little Death Eater walking in Voldy's shoes. I think by Book Seven, he'd learned that Snape's love for Lily wasn't an obsession or some dark, weird thing, but real, pure, unrequited love.

Though, I think you're right, it was Snape. But I'd like to see if there's any chance that I'm wrong before I go all out about it.




I've just added it to my list of advance questions to JKR for the chat tomorrow morning. I think I'm up to about 40 questions now, lol...
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Psychee
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Re: The Snape Thread

It seems to me that Harry could have spent a nice long time with Snape's portrait in the Headmaster's office sometime later to talk about his memories with Lily and a whole bunch of other things that people feel sad that they never discussed.

And it would have been so much easier to do it then, after all the secrets were out.
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potterfreak2
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

If Snape was in the Order and they used Patronuses to talk to each other how is it that Dumbledore never knew that Snape's patronus was a doe before he showed him in the scene we see in the memory which took place in HBP shortly before Dumbledore died?



Linda301 wrote:
It wasn't my impression that there was anything anyone could do about the form of their Patronus or what form they took when they were an animagus - though I DID notice that the Patronus and the Animagus forms DID match! My point was that Snape had been in love with Lily significantly enough and at a young enough age to have probably always influenced his Patronus.

He joined Voldemort just out of school, right? So he may not have been able to produce one at that point. Hiding it was probably easy too. I wasn't given the impression that the Death Eaters used Patronuses to communicate, they had other ways and weren't well known to each other. Hmmmm, I'm starting to ramble, sorry!

Linda



PattyBNUChick wrote:
That's a good point, and I wonder if Snape could have pulled off a patronous before his 'return' to Dumbledore but then again Nasty old Umbridge could produce one, so thats no proof. Then I think, well, Snape wouldnt have wanted Voldemort or anyone to know what his Patronous was, would he? I mean, how many death eaters have a patronous that's a sweet little doe or something like it. I would think he would want that baby hidden! So, I was wondering, if you can change your patronous, can you alternate between two patronouses based on the circumstance in which you're sending it? Say for example, in front of Death Eaters, he produces a dragon patronous, but when he's sending help to Harry, he produces the one that really means something to him about Lily?



Linda301 wrote:


dancingchick094 wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I know me to : ) I can't get over the doe. I liked Snape, thought he was DDs man, but I still kept thinking his patronous would be something mean looking or slimy or something, but wow that doe.



Luthien wrote:





Haha me too. I wonder if his Patronus was always a doe, or if it changed after Lily died. What do you think?





Sorry to stick my two knuts worth in here, but I think Snape's patronus was always a doe. He knew Lily longer than he could produce a Patronus, right?

Linda








ABI
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ABI
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Re: The Snape Thread

Personally, i think she could have put in more of Snape (which sounds weird, but, true), it seemed...lacking of the entire "how will Harry react when he and Snape reunite?" scenario. And once Harry had discovered the truth about Lily and his former-arch-enemy, wouldn't it be interesting to have them meet again with that truth unveiled between them?
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

This is such a good pointer that Snape wasn't all bad, and maybe wasn't seen by others as he was by Harry (granted, he didn't treat anyone else as badly as he did Harry and friends)...Hagrid wouldn't hear any disrespect for Snape all these years, telling Harry to have respect for his teacher, refer to him as Professor Snape etc. Hagrid did seem as surprised as anyone when Snape killed DD, but maybe he, and the other teachers, had a shadow of an idea that Snape might not be completely evil by sending the Gryffindor students with Hagrid, who would watch out for them. Even though they questioned DD's assertion that Snape could be trusted, and that seemed shot to pieces after DD died, that act of 'punishment' had to cause them to wonder a little bit.

potterfreak2 wrote: I think he sent Ginny, Neville, and Luna into the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid to keep them from being cruelly punished because he really was good or atleast not completely evil and didnt want them to be subjected to the cruciatus curse if he could prevent it.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

But did he want the prophecy so badly or was it an attempt to get Harry at the Ministry? I'm still not sure about that. But Psychee, in a duel between our brains, you have the Elder Brain, so I'll take your word for it : )



Psychee wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I thought Snape DID hear it all and that Dumbledore was not truthful with Harry when he told him Snape only heard half of it. Am I right or did I miss something.





No, Snape only heard half of it. If Snape had heard the whole thing, why would Voldemort have wanted the prophesy so badly?


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PattyBNUChick
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Re: The Snape Thread

It is vague, but you're probably right Psychee. I misread it : ) Either way, its my favorite scene in the book. : )



Psychee wrote:


RiftDoggy wrote:
...3. Did anyone else get a LITTLE confused in the "Always" scene, when there were "tears in his eyes"? It wasn't quite as specific as I would like, in terms of WHO had tears in their eyes. It could go either way, and I must have missed some crucial part of the sentence. Just wondering.




"...he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears."

It IS confusing. The context shows a very emotional Snape yearning for his lost love and a calm Dumbledore; Snape HAS to be the one with tears in his eyes. There would be no reason for Dumbledore to suddenly tear up, especially as he has just been told that Snape doesn't give a hoot about the boy. It would be very hard for Dumbledore to empathize with Snape's plight at that moment.

I think they left out a word -- "saw". "...and saw his eyes were full of tears"


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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Since Voldemort had imperioused an Unspeakable to steal it for him before, he did want the prophesy itself. He trusted no one, and would want to hear the prophesy himself, and not just believe what was relayed to him by someone else.
When he discovered it could only be retrieved by those directly involved or about it, he needed Harry...or Trelawney. Isn't that why DD wanted to make sure Trelawney wasn't sacked and sent away from Hogwarts - he wanted her to be safe from Voldemort. The chance to get Harry himself AND the prophesy was just an added bonus!





PattyBNUChick wrote:
But did he want the prophecy so badly or was it an attempt to get Harry at the Ministry? I'm still not sure about that. But Psychee, in a duel between our brains, you have the Elder Brain, so I'll take your word for it : )



Psychee wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I thought Snape DID hear it all and that Dumbledore was not truthful with Harry when he told him Snape only heard half of it. Am I right or did I miss something.





No, Snape only heard half of it. If Snape had heard the whole thing, why would Voldemort have wanted the prophesy so badly?





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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



PattyBNUChick wrote:
But did he want the prophecy so badly or was it an attempt to get Harry at the Ministry? I'm still not sure about that.




Patty...lol...the books are over. Yes, Voldemort did want the prophecy. Most of OoP goes down the drain without that plot.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



amm1 wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
But did he want the prophecy so badly or was it an attempt to get Harry at the Ministry? I'm still not sure about that.




Patty...lol...the books are over. Yes, Voldemort did want the prophecy. Most of OoP goes down the drain without that plot.




amm1, the books are only over once you have decided you never want to read them again. Some of us want to/are rereading the series, and many of us will do so again someday.
As for the OotP bit, you're right. He wanted the prophecy, AND he wanted Harry. By luring Harry to the Department of Mysteries, he hoped to get the Prophecy and to capture Harry.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



RiftDoggy wrote:


amm1 wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
But did he want the prophecy so badly or was it an attempt to get Harry at the Ministry? I'm still not sure about that.




Patty...lol...the books are over. Yes, Voldemort did want the prophecy. Most of OoP goes down the drain without that plot.




amm1, the books are only over once you have decided you never want to read them again. Some of us want to/are rereading the series, and many of us will do so again someday.
As for the OotP bit, you're right. He wanted the prophecy, AND he wanted Harry. By luring Harry to the Department of Mysteries, he hoped to get the Prophecy and to capture Harry.




My reply had nothing to do with reading the books over and over again. We were discussing the plot and now that the books are over, finished, there are many questions that have been answered. Such as Voldemort did indeed attempt to learn the rest of the prophecy in OoP. That's all I was saying. :smileyhappy:
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



potterfreak2 wrote:
If Snape was in the Order and they used Patronuses to talk to each other how is it that Dumbledore never knew that Snape's patronus was a doe before he showed him in the scene we see in the memory which took place in HBP shortly before Dumbledore died?





I don't think that was the first time he had seen it. I think it is obvious that he had seen it before, actually, because he recognized it. He probably had not seen it in a long time, though. When Snape and Dumbledore were apart, Snape was undercover and couldn't very well communicate with Dumbledore as that would have looked very suspicious. I also think that they only used this method of communication when no other method was safe or available to them.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Isn't it especially ironic (if that's the correct term, correct me if I'm wrong) that Snape made the remark about how Tonks' Patronus had changed, maybe guessing it was due to her deep personal feelings for someone....when his was all about the same thing?



Psychee wrote:


potterfreak2 wrote:
If Snape was in the Order and they used Patronuses to talk to each other how is it that Dumbledore never knew that Snape's patronus was a doe before he showed him in the scene we see in the memory which took place in HBP shortly before Dumbledore died?





I don't think that was the first time he had seen it. I think it is obvious that he had seen it before, actually, because he recognized it. He probably had not seen it in a long time, though. When Snape and Dumbledore were apart, Snape was undercover and couldn't very well communicate with Dumbledore as that would have looked very suspicious. I also think that they only used this method of communication when no other method was safe or available to them.


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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Didn't Snape send a Patronus to the Order when Harry was able to give him a clue about Sirius being in danger, when Umbridge had them in her office? If he did, then the Order would know about it. Sirius may have understood the meaning. For the others who didn't know about Prongs, or even if they did, such a sweet image used by Snape would have been very puzzling!



MsJinx wrote:
Isn't it especially ironic (if that's the correct term, correct me if I'm wrong) that Snape made the remark about how Tonks' Patronus had changed, maybe guessing it was due to her deep personal feelings for someone....when his was all about the same thing?



Psychee wrote:


potterfreak2 wrote:
If Snape was in the Order and they used Patronuses to talk to each other how is it that Dumbledore never knew that Snape's patronus was a doe before he showed him in the scene we see in the memory which took place in HBP shortly before Dumbledore died?





I don't think that was the first time he had seen it. I think it is obvious that he had seen it before, actually, because he recognized it. He probably had not seen it in a long time, though. When Snape and Dumbledore were apart, Snape was undercover and couldn't very well communicate with Dumbledore as that would have looked very suspicious. I also think that they only used this method of communication when no other method was safe or available to them.





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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



MsJinx wrote:
Isn't it especially ironic (if that's the correct term, correct me if I'm wrong) that Snape made the remark about how Tonks' Patronus had changed, maybe guessing it was due to her deep personal feelings for someone....when his was all about the same thing?




Wow, you're right!! Poor Snape. At least Tonks got the person she loved, and she even died with him, so she didn't have to live with the sadness of losing the person she most loved like Snape did. Still wish either Tonks or Lupin had lived, though, so poor Teddy wouldn't have been an orphan. I understand why JKR did it, though.
Off topic. Sorry.
I was so glad to see Snape's soft side in the Pensieve memories. We've never seen anything but anger and hatred from him, but now we know where a lot of that came from, and we know that he is capable of love, and extremely intense love. You have to feel some sympathy for him, even if you still maintain that he is not a good person. I'm not saying that he's a paragon of virtue, because he did still do a lot of terrible things, but at least he's not totally awful.
Long live Snape. The world will never forget you!!
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


MsJinx wrote:
Didn't Snape send a Patronus to the Order when Harry was able to give him a clue about Sirius being in danger, when Umbridge had them in her office? If he did, then the Order would know about it. Sirius may have understood the meaning. For the others who didn't know about Prongs, or even if they did, such a sweet image used by Snape would have been very puzzling!



MsJinx wrote:
Isn't it especially ironic (if that's the correct term, correct me if I'm wrong) that Snape made the remark about how Tonks' Patronus had changed, maybe guessing it was due to her deep personal feelings for someone....when his was all about the same thing?



Psychee wrote:


potterfreak2 wrote:
If Snape was in the Order and they used Patronuses to talk to each other how is it that Dumbledore never knew that Snape's patronus was a doe before he showed him in the scene we see in the memory which took place in HBP shortly before Dumbledore died?





I don't think that was the first time he had seen it. I think it is obvious that he had seen it before, actually, because he recognized it. He probably had not seen it in a long time, though. When Snape and Dumbledore were apart, Snape was undercover and couldn't very well communicate with Dumbledore as that would have looked very suspicious. I also think that they only used this method of communication when no other method was safe or available to them.










Yes, it should have given them pause to consider... Sirius could have guessed, and Lupin also, but Sirius died shortly after seeing that Patronus and Lupin might have been in another room when the Patronus arrived. I don't believe that Dumbledore was there, though.

Snape's comment about Tonks' Patronus looking "weak", though, was a sarcastic comment about Lupin, not about Tonks, I think.
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potterfreak2
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]

Psychee wrote:


potterfreak2 wrote:
If Snape was in the Order and they used Patronuses to talk to each other how is it that Dumbledore never knew that Snape's patronus was a doe before he showed him in the scene we see in the memory which took place in HBP shortly before Dumbledore died?





I don't think that was the first time he had seen it. I think it is obvious that he had seen it before, actually, because he recognized it. He probably had not seen it in a long time, though. When Snape and Dumbledore were apart, Snape was undercover and couldn't very well communicate with Dumbledore as that would have looked very suspicious. I also think that they only used this method of communication when no other method was safe or available to them.




I get that maybe Dumbldore thought that his patronus might have changed over time, but if it hadn't changed for years after Lily's death and if nothing really traumatic emotionally had happened to Snape I guess I just don't see where the surprise that it hadn't changed is coming from. But I understand what you said Psychee, and thanks you made me realize some things.
(And if someone read this before the edit I didn't think about this until after I had submitted the post, so that's why it kinda contradicts what the original post said.)

Message Edited by potterfreak2 on 07-29-2007 11:05 PM

Message Edited by potterfreak2 on 07-29-2007 11:06 PM
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Psychee wrote: ... Snape's comment about Tonks' Patronus looking "weak", though, was a sarcastic comment about Lupin, not about Tonks, I think.
------------------------------

I got the impression that he was also making a snide reference to her choice of men, as well as the affect on her personality, moping around lovesick. And now to find out he very well could have been the same way at some point with Lily! He may have had some feeling of bitter envy, as well, seeing a woman who loved someone in spite of everything, something he never had.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



MsJinx wrote:
Psychee wrote: ... Snape's comment about Tonks' Patronus looking "weak", though, was a sarcastic comment about Lupin, not about Tonks, I think.
------------------------------

I got the impression that he was also making a snide reference to her choice of men, as well as the affect on her personality, moping around lovesick. And now to find out he very well could have been the same way at some point with Lily! He may have had some feeling of bitter envy, as well, seeing a woman who loved someone in spite of everything, something he never had.




Yes, I can see that, too. He publicly denies his own sentimental soppiness and criticizes others for having emotions...

Why do you suppose he went to Sirius' bedroom after he killed Dumbledore?
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Ooh - good question. Other rooms were ransackedas well, looking for Order info, but he did hit the jackpot in Sirius' room, didn't he, with the photograph of Lily.



Psychee wrote:


MsJinx wrote:
Psychee wrote: ... Snape's comment about Tonks' Patronus looking "weak", though, was a sarcastic comment about Lupin, not about Tonks, I think.
------------------------------

I got the impression that he was also making a snide reference to her choice of men, as well as the affect on her personality, moping around lovesick. And now to find out he very well could have been the same way at some point with Lily! He may have had some feeling of bitter envy, as well, seeing a woman who loved someone in spite of everything, something he never had.




Yes, I can see that, too. He publicly denies his own sentimental soppiness and criticizes others for having emotions...

Why do you suppose he went to Sirius' bedroom after he killed Dumbledore?