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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Why would Snape need to look for Order info? He was on the inside. Up until that afternoon, he knew everything except the Horcruxes and the Elder wand thing.

I'm assuming here that he went there as soon as he could after killing Dumbledore but before the enchantments were set up by Mad-eye.

I think most of the ransacking had to be Mundungus, but I'm really curious why Snape puposely went into Sirius' room... the book makes it look like he was looking for Lily memorabilia, perhaps because at that moment he was feeling so alone? Perhaps he just figured that James' best friend would have stuff about Lily, too? And he was right?

Maybe he needed to contact Phinneas in Harry's bedroom and then decided to take a stroll into Sirius' room...
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StoryMing
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Re: The Snape Thread



Psychee wrote:


RiftDoggy wrote:
...3. Did anyone else get a LITTLE confused in the "Always" scene, when there were "tears in his eyes"? It wasn't quite as specific as I would like, in terms of WHO had tears in their eyes. It could go either way, and I must have missed some crucial part of the sentence. Just wondering.




"...he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears."

It IS confusing. The context shows a very emotional Snape yearning for his lost love and a calm Dumbledore; Snape HAS to be the one with tears in his eyes. There would be no reason for Dumbledore to suddenly tear up, especially as he has just been told that Snape doesn't give a hoot about the boy. It would be very hard for Dumbledore to empathize with Snape's plight at that moment.

I think they left out a word -- "saw". "...and saw his eyes were full of tears"




It IS a bit ambiguous, but I definitely read the tears as Dumbledore being touched that Snape still cares so much for Lily after all that time. That makes the most sense to me, and it would be in character. Snape is angry and annoyed with DD at the time (and rightly so!); he produced the patronus to prove a point, not because he was being sentimental- so tears would not be an appropriate emotional response on
his part.

As far as the rest of the Order goes, I don't think it specifies, but I strongly suspect that Snape NEVER used his patronus to contact the Order. He may have been in touch with them thru any number of other ways.
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MsJinx
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Do you think Snape was still communicating with the Order even after Dumbledore's death? It was okay for him to be in touch with DD as long as he was playing his double agent role, but upon DD's death, the DEs were out in the open and no longer needed him undercover, and I think the Order thought he was a traitor, and would have no more contact with him, at least that's the way I read it, and the way McGonagall referred to him during the final battle. But maybe he was in secret contact with the Order even after DD's death, and they continued the cover. As far as ransacking Sirius' room, Snape may have been looking for any leads as to Harry's whereabouts, places he may go to feel safe, so if he was still trying to protect Harry, he would have some ideas what information NOT to give DEs.



Psychee wrote:
Why would Snape need to look for Order info? He was on the inside. Up until that afternoon, he knew everything except the Horcruxes and the Elder wand thing.

I'm assuming here that he went there as soon as he could after killing Dumbledore but before the enchantments were set up by Mad-eye.

I think most of the ransacking had to be Mundungus, but I'm really curious why Snape puposely went into Sirius' room... the book makes it look like he was looking for Lily memorabilia, perhaps because at that moment he was feeling so alone? Perhaps he just figured that James' best friend would have stuff about Lily, too? And he was right?

Maybe he needed to contact Phinneas in Harry's bedroom and then decided to take a stroll into Sirius' room...


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kpeterson32
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]
I think it's pretty straightforward. Snape had just killed Dumbledore, something he... apparently... didn't want to do. He goes back to the headquarters of the Order, knowing perfectly well that it's currently not in use, because what else could he do? Where else could he go? At this point, he was completely, totally on his own for the first time in a very long time. NO ONE alive knew where his loyalties were. He would have known perfectly well that Sirius, the best friend of Lily's husband, would have a photograph or something. I think he desperately needed to see a picture of her, to remind him of why he had just done what he did. The good things he did, though few, were always for her, the girl he had loved from his childhood.

As for the tears, I read them as Dumbledore's. Although, after looking at the line apart from the rest of the paragraph, I can see the ambiguity. The thing is that Dumbledore has a definite soft spot, and he's in the middle of asking Severus to do some very difficult things. When he learns that Severus still loves Lily after so many years, and obviously (to me anyway) still feels guilty about her death (which he should), Dumbledore is moved. That's the way I read it, anyway.

Message Edited by kpeterson32 on 07-30-2007 04:30 PM
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Someone needs to just ask Jo, because until she has an answer, there's no way we'll ever know for sure. It's just an ambiguous statement.

As for Tonks's Patronus...I think you're right, he was probably trying to insult them both, and was probably jealous/bitter about the whole love/lack thereof thing. Poor Snape, he just needed a hug! *huggles Sev; wipes hand on something less dirty than his hair, like an ill-maintained privy from the 1600s*
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I've culled together a bunch of statements that JKR said today in the webchat about Snape for us:

SNAPE:

Q: Does the wizarding world now know that Snape was Dumbledore's man, or do they still think he did a bunk?

J.K. Rowling: Harry would ensure that Snape’s heroism was known. Of course, that would not stop Rita Skeeter writing ‘Snape: Scoundrel or Saint?’


Q: Do you think Snape is a hero?

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity – and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That’s pretty heroic!


Q: Did Lily ever have feelings back for Snape?

J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.


Q: Lily detested Mulciber and Avery. If Snape really loved her, why didn't he sacrifice their company for her sake?

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape’s tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily’s aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.



Q: I would like to know how come no one seemed to know that lily and Snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didn't James know their past?

J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known. James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James’ behaviour to Snape.


Q: Was the absence of Snape's portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate?

J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles. However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape’s portrait would appear there in due course.


Q: How did Snape get into Grimmauld place to get the second half of the letter, if there were protection spells on the house stopping Snape getting in?

J.K. Rowling: Snape entered the house immediately after Dumbledore’s death, before Moody put up the spells against him.


Q: How did Snape keep his Patronus secret from the rest of the order?

J.K. Rowling: He was careful not to use the talking Patronus means of communication with them. This was not difficult, as his particular job within the Order, ie, as spy, meant that sending a Patronus to any of them might have given away his true allegiance.


Q: Was Snape the only death eater who could produce a full Patronus?

J.K. Rowling: Yes, because a Patronus is used against things that the Death Eaters generally generate, or fight alongside. They would not need Patronuses.


Q: Why was Snape so badly groomed?

J.K. Rowling: Hmm. Good question. Poor eyesight? Did he look in the mirror and believe he was gorgeous as he was? I think it more likely that he valued other qualities in himself!
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BnBookworm
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

One thing about Snape is that he seriously needs to clean his hair once in a while.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I don't understand the answer to the talking Patronus question... how else might he have been able to communicate to the Order without use of the Floo network in Book 5?

Has she forgotten that?
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kpeterson32
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

[ Edited ]

Psychee wrote:
I don't understand the answer to the talking Patronus question... how else might he have been able to communicate to the Order without use of the Floo network in Book 5?

Has she forgotten that?




The thing is that I suspected that he was communicating with the Order in some other way. No one ever said anything about receiving his Patronus. I just assumed he couldn't conjure one, because he didn't seem like he would have any happy memories and he knew of "better" ways of repelling dementors.

I just never had any idea what the other way of communicating might have been. I'm sure she'll let us know. That's not the type of question that people are likely to just let go.

Maybe Phineas Nigellus's portrait. Just because Umbridge couldn't get in to occupy the office doesn't have to mean that no one else could get in there if they needed to. Someone loyal to Dumbledore and supportive of his cause might have been able to gain entrance.

Message Edited by kpeterson32 on 07-30-2007 05:51 PM
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"Oooh, look, a Blibbering Humdinger!" -- Luna Lovegood
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potterfreak2
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



kpeterson32 wrote:

Psychee wrote:
I don't understand the answer to the talking Patronus question... how else might he have been able to communicate to the Order without use of the Floo network in Book 5?

Has she forgotten that?




The thing is that I suspected that he was communicating with the Order in some other way. No one ever said anything about receiving his Patronus. I just assumed he couldn't conjure one, because he didn't seem like he would have any happy memories and he knew of "better" ways of repelling dementors.

I just never had any idea what the other way of communicating might have been. I'm sure she'll let us know. That's not the type of question that people are likely to just let go.

Maybe Phineas Nigellus's portrait. Just because Umbridge couldn't get in to occupy the office doesn't have to mean that no one else could get in there if they needed to. Someone loyal to Dumbledore and supportive of his cause might have been able to gain entrance.

Message Edited by kpeterson32 on 07-30-2007 05:51 PM




I don't think he could've used Phineas Nigellus's portrait because I don't think he could've gotten into the headmaster's office. I have OotP right here and it says, "'And what brings you (harry) here in the early hours of the morning?' said Phineas. 'This office is supposed to be barred to all but the rightful headmaster. Or has Dumbledore sent you here?...' (OotP pg 821. American Hardback)"
It says that nobody can get in unless they were Dumbledore or Dumbledore had sent them and I don't think Dumbledore could've sent Snape there because 1. how would Snape have been able to communicate that quickly with Dumbledore to tell him that he needed to get into his office if he didn't use the Patronus thing (and why couldnt he have just used whatever way of communicating with Dumbledore to alert the order or why couldn't Dumbledore have just alerted them) and 2. it seems to me that you have to be sent there from outside of Hogwarts, it couldn't just be that Dumbledore sent someone a letter telling them to go to his office and then they could get in.
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kakrol
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

After reading through all these posts, there is one statement from the Pensieve that I am somewhat shocked that hasn't been commented on.

When DD and Snape are discussing Draco's future murder attempt, and DD worries about Draco's soul, Snape questions DD's interest in his [Snape's] soul. Something along the lines of: "And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?" That line, coupled with all the memories Snape gave Harry, definitely pull Snape from the evil/horribly bad column into the deeply flawed/tragic column. Even as a DE, Snape, given this line, never did anything that would have rent his soul as Voldemort's was destroyed. Would he have stayed a loyal DE, if Lily had never been targeted? Most likely. But as DD always, always says, it is our choices that define us.

While Snape may have been a git, his love did redeem him. He does have a soul worth saving. In rereading, that is what makes his own storyline and death more tragic. He could never get past Harry's face to see that his missed out on Lily in Harry more than just the green eyes.

Separately, but on the topic of Snape's death. What that scene showed me more was Voldemort's continued interest in himself. In one of the earlier books, Voldy comments on how he can be merciful, but obviously this is not the case. Here is a man, who has been a double agent for V, or so he thinks, and he kills Snape so easily. Snape doesn't even get a AK to take him down. He is bought down by the pet, evil pet sure, but pet just the same. He doesn't even get the 'courtesy' of V's own hand.
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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


potterfreak2 wrote:


kpeterson32 wrote:

Psychee wrote:
I don't understand the answer to the talking Patronus question... how else might he have been able to communicate to the Order without use of the Floo network in Book 5?

Has she forgotten that?




The thing is that I suspected that he was communicating with the Order in some other way. No one ever said anything about receiving his Patronus. I just assumed he couldn't conjure one, because he didn't seem like he would have any happy memories and he knew of "better" ways of repelling dementors.

I just never had any idea what the other way of communicating might have been. I'm sure she'll let us know. That's not the type of question that people are likely to just let go.

Maybe Phineas Nigellus's portrait. Just because Umbridge couldn't get in to occupy the office doesn't have to mean that no one else could get in there if they needed to. Someone loyal to Dumbledore and supportive of his cause might have been able to gain entrance.

Message Edited by kpeterson32 on 07-30-2007 05:51 PM




I don't think he could've used Phineas Nigellus's portrait because I don't think he could've gotten into the headmaster's office. I have OotP right here and it says, "'And what brings you (harry) here in the early hours of the morning?' said Phineas. 'This office is supposed to be barred to all but the rightful headmaster. Or has Dumbledore sent you here?...' (OotP pg 821. American Hardback)"
It says that nobody can get in unless they were Dumbledore or Dumbledore had sent them and I don't think Dumbledore could've sent Snape there because 1. how would Snape have been able to communicate that quickly with Dumbledore to tell him that he needed to get into his office if he didn't use the Patronus thing (and why couldnt he have just used whatever way of communicating with Dumbledore to alert the order or why couldn't Dumbledore have just alerted them) and 2. it seems to me that you have to be sent there from outside of Hogwarts, it couldn't just be that Dumbledore sent someone a letter telling them to go to his office and then they could get in.




Maybe he asked a person in another portrait to go up to Phinneas's portrait and relay the question/answer that way to him?

Dumbledore did imply, though, that whatever method he used to communicate with Grimmauld Place was one that specifically was used by the Order and was safe and reliable. All this time I never questioned the method -- I always thought he meant via the Patronus...
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

How Snape must have hated Voldemort for killing Lily, yet he pulled it off to the end. Can you imagine the strength it took Snape to act that loyal to Voldemort, to be with him over and over and yet being with him probably clenched his stomach into a knot each time after what Voldemort did to Lily.
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Yes, it must have been torture for Snape to do that. He was definitely a very brave man. As if the torment of being the reason for Lily's death wasn't enough...Although that was probably worse than being around the one who killed her all the time.
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HPSeeker
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Re: The Snape Thread

You're right, Patty :smileyhappy: Someone on Mongers explained it to me. For some reason my brain kept thinking he was SENDing a patronus and I kept wondering to whom! He was simply CONJURing the patronus and now I can understand it, 'cause I was confused by it.
: Donna

PattyBNUChick wrote:
I think you may have misread. I don't think Snape gave a hangnail about Harry. Dumbledore asked him if he cared for the boy and Snape just about Spat at him. When he said "Always" he was talking about Lily. He had sent his doe patronous out the window and Dumbledore turned around to Snape with tears in his eyes and Dumbledore said "After all this time" and Snape said "Always". That was about Lily, not Harry.



HPSeeker wrote:
Hey, Patty :smileyhappy: I figured you were in B&N talking about this. How are ya?!

Anyway, I wasn't disappointed with anything JK wrote, to tell you the truth, and it was Dumbledore keeping the facts from everyone that enabled events to unfold properly. He was very careful and cunning in how he steered it, and in the end, it worked as he knew it would. As for Snape not knowing, it made perfect sense, and it ultimately gave us one of the most touching moments in the book when DD asked him if he cared for the boy, and he finally admitted, "Always."
: Donna



PattyBNUChick wrote:
I was a bit disappointed that Snape didnt know about the Horcruxes. I thought Dumbledore had probably filled Snape in but as Ollivander said in SS movie 'Aparently not' : )







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Re: The Snape Thread

Snape didn't know how Harry felt AFTER he had access to Snape's memories and the truth.

I was confused only because I thought Snape was suddenly and inexplicably SENDing a patronus message! Once it was pointed out to me, it was made clear that he was answering DD with the patronus like Lily's, showing he never stopped loving Lily and it had nothing to do with him caring for Harry.
: Donna


RiftDoggy wrote:
1. Snape ALWAYS knew what Harry thought of him (it was at the front of his mind when they were anywhere near each other; Snape couldn't help but notice). He just didn't care.

3. Did anyone else get a LITTLE confused in the "Always" scene, when there were "tears in his eyes"? It wasn't quite as specific as I would like, in terms of WHO had tears in their eyes. It could go either way, and I must have missed some crucial part of the sentence. Just wondering.

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Re: The Snape Thread

Patty, it was Snape who had tears in his eyes when thinking of Lily.
: Donna


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I think Snape was perhaps pondering the Snake trying to figure out how to get it unprotected or maybe even what it meant because of DD saying that the snake being protected was time to tell Harry. The 'always thing' threw me in my maniacally fast first reading, but I definitely got it the second time. DD was the one with tears in his eyes, he realized what it meant and thats why he said 'After all this time?' because it had been 15 years or somewhere around there (cant remember what year it was).



RiftDoggy wrote:
1. Snape ALWAYS knew what Harry thought of him (it was at the front of his mind when they were anywhere near each other; Snape couldn't help but notice). He just didn't care.

2. Snape didn't just decide to die in his death scene, there was a definite air of "Holy crap a snake is flying at me, OH ____!" He did have the sense to give Harry his memories when he saw him, though. If Harry hadn't been there... D:

3. Did anyone else get a LITTLE confused in the "Always" scene, when there were "tears in his eyes"? It wasn't quite as specific as I would like, in terms of WHO had tears in their eyes. It could go either way, and I must have missed some crucial part of the sentence. Just wondering.




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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Patty, I'm going to paste here a post I put up in Mongers to explain the whole prophecy thing, the timing, because there was some theory going around on Mugglenet that Debs had told me about quite awhile ago. Anyway, below is the entire post and I've explained, in great detail, the two spots that SEEM contradictory about the prophecy, but are NOT.

Here's the post:
Anyway, in a little chat, Debs brought up one of the theories that is being talked about again and it didn't sit right with me, so I had to investigate. Now that I have, I can't go to sleep until I've posted it here! lol Thanks, Debs!!!!!
She explained to me the contradicting issues over the prophecy: the time that Dumbledore said that the person who overheard the prophecy was thrown from the building (I found it on pg. 843, OotP U.S. paperback) and Trelawney saying that she saw Aberforth and Snape (directly after the prophecy, although she didn't know about the prophecy), on page 545, HBP U.S. hardcover. I know this was brought up in BNU, but I couldn't recall what was said -- it was briefly discussed. Debs said it was an unsatisfactory answer.

The theory is discussed on Mugglenet. Debs gave me the link:
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt42.shtml

Now, if you read the excerpts without analyzing them with the right perspective, this Mugglenet person's point of view makes you think her theory is possible. For a split second I almost thought it was, but that left my mind just as quickly. Why, you ask? Because I don't believe that Jo Rowling would have Dumbledore deliberately lying to Harry about the prophecy or Snape. I don't believe that Snape actually overheard the WHOLE prophecy, but told Voldemort only HALF of it 'cause Snape KNEW LV would "make" the enemy that would eventually kill him, which would mean that Snape wanted LV dead and this would be the way to do it (however many years in the future when this "made" enemy would be grown and trained enough to be capable of killing Voldemort, which seems ridiculous to me).

I reread the two passages (seemingly contradictory only at first glance) in order to properly interpret what was meant and to see for myself if anything was contradictory. In my opinion there is no contradiction and no indication that there was a mistake by Jo in her writing or any deliberate lying or misleading by Dumbledore or anyone else involved. I'm going to type both excerpts so you guys can read the wording yourselves, then explain what I see:

OotP, pg.843, Dumbledore is speaking to Harry, it's the last sentence in the paragraph:

"...Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sibyll Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My--our--one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building."

HBP, pg. 545, Trelawney speaking to Harry, the whole paragraph:
"Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore--you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was because he appreciated the stark contrast between my own unassuming manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young man who was prepared to listen at keyholes--Harry, dear?"

The debate is: "How could the eavesdropper have been thrown from the building only having heard the FIRST half of the prophecy, yet Trelawney saw Snape caught by Aberforth AFTER she completed the prophecy?"

After reading both excerpts, I see this as a case of "not everything being explained" by either person; it's like one person conveying part of a story, the other person conveying another part of the same story, each giving different details of the exact same event, none of one's details contradicting the other's. In truth, you must put BOTH stories together to get the FULL picture. (This reminds me of the four gospels in the Bible and how each man described the same events, only slightly differently, yet saying the same thing, not contradicting anything.)

In Dumbledore's statement he doesn't explain EVERY detail, he is saying the main points in his explanation to Harry. What should be "understood" by the reader, once we learn more through each "reveal" during the series is that this is what could have been said if Jo had chosen to make Dumbledore more explanatory: "...the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy, and after having been caught and brought in to me, was thrown from the building." What he actually does say does NOT refute what Trelawney witnessed simply because he didn't fill Harry in with EVERY detail.

Now, in reading what Trelawney said, she heard a commotion outside the door, and then Aberforth and Snape stepped into the room. The prophecy is a short one -- in the seconds between her having already spoken the beginning of the prophecy that Snape overheard, and the the rest of the prophecy to the end, these were the same seconds (literally 10-15 seconds) when Aberforth and Snape were raising a commotion, he having been caught. You see? Snape was caught early on in the prophecy and he and Aberforth were raising a commotion WHILE she was completing the prophecy; they were at the tail end of raising that short commotion when she came out of the trance, she heard them outside the door, along with Dumbledore. THEN Aberforth brought Snape into the room, and THEN he was thrown from the building. She said Snape was waffling about, having come the wrong way up the stairs because that is what Snape probably told Aberforth he was doing when he was caught and either Snape or Aberforth said this to Dumbledore when Snape was brought in to him which is why Trelawney also heard this explanation. Aberforth didn't SAY he caught Snape eavesdropping because Trelawney said SHE thought Snape was listening at the keyhole. Snape may actually have been eavesdropping for the very reason (getting "tips") she believes, only Snape, by what Dumbledore says is his/their good fortune, had inadvertently overheard the first half of the prophecy. It wasn't until Snape confessed to Dumbledore (AFTER he renounced the DEs and LV) that he actually WAS eavesdropping and heard the FIRST half of the prophecy, that Dumbledore knew this to be fact.

I hope it helps you understand it and that Snape only heard half the prophecy.
: Donna



PattyBNUChick wrote:
But Trelawney at the end of book 6 told Harry she was aware of Snape, so that leads me to think that Dumbledore only told Harry that Snape heard part of it. I'm still unsure, but I think Snape heard the whole thing. But I'm probably wrong. Ok, now I don't know which way it was lol.



amm1 wrote:

PattyBNUChick wrote:
I thought Snape DID hear it all and that Dumbledore was not truthful with Harry when he told him Snape only heard half of it. Am I right or did I miss something.



Snape only heard part of the prophecy.




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snapessister
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Registered: ‎06-15-2007
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



StoryMing wrote:
I know this will probably be an unpopular minority opinion on the board, but after years of speculation re: Snape and Lily, the fact that it turned out to be spot-on seemed by now a bit... cliche, almost. Old news. I'm not even sure why exactly, since I have nothing against the idea of Snape being secretly in love with Lily, in fact I rather like the idea- but all the same I somehow found it mildly disappointing.

As was to be expected, I was both right and wrong, about ol' Sev.
Turns out he did indeed kill DD only reluctantly, and on his orders. Also turns out however that he was ultimately loyal, not to DD, but to Lily (no scene of post-tower Snape being upset w. what he had to do, among the memories). Nor did he die heroically defying Voldemort and helping Harry, as I imagined- of course I don't see him as any less a hero, but... disposed of as no further use, thru Nagini-- it was not the death that he deserved. Also DD's death WAS for Draco's protection, and because he was already dying; not because somehow it would help Harry, as I thought...

But what's with Snape's last words? "Look at me"?
Everything Harry needed to know. he would find out thru the pensieve memories, so why was the eye contact so important?

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-22-2007 04:54 PM




(sigh) I don't understand why Snape giving up his life to protect the son of a dead woman is selfish. He didn’t like Harry because he is the Hybred of the person he loved the most and the person he hated the most. He could never level with Harry during his lifetime because it was too painful for him.
Through out the books, there are moments when Harry looks at Snape's eyes with hatred, seeing a mean, dark, nasty person and Snape looks away. (Possibly guiltily looking into Lily's eyes)
I would like to think that Snape's last words meant he wanted Harry to understand him, his motivations, and his mysterious actions by looking through his memories. I think that's part of what the Princes' memory is about.

I also don’t think he was any less loyal to Dumbledore because he didn’t express his feelings. Remember, this is the guy who says that people who wear their hearts on their sleeves are weak. (Which truly gives significance to the moment he cries in Sirius’ bedroom...As in... WOW he REALLY loved her).

I think we see some of the emotion Snape felt for Dumbledore in several areas of HBP. In the Forest when Snape says he doesn't want to do "It" anymore, in the “hatred and revulsion etched on his face” (or something like that) when he steps forward to kill him. Afterward, when Harry calls him a coward, Snape responds "DON'T CALL ME COWARD" To me this suggests that he has done something that was very difficult for him, and that required a huge amount of courage.

At the same time the Prince is escaping, Hagrid is rescuing Fang from his burning hut, after reading "The Flight of the Prince" several times; I can see a correlation that JK has drawn between Snape having to kill Dumbledore—the man who trusts him when no one else would—and Fang being stuck in a burning building, both their worlds are falling apart.



still now he can be with lily and his friends wherever they go when they die



I certainly hope so; I wish we could have caught a glimpse of him on the celestial “platform nine and three quarters.”
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: The Snape Thread

The line in the book is vague, but I'm still leaning toward Dumbledore having the tears in his eyes, although Snape may have had them too. I guess we won't know for sure until Rowling tells us lol.



HPSeeker wrote:
Patty, it was Snape who had tears in his eyes when thinking of Lily.
: Donna


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I think Snape was perhaps pondering the Snake trying to figure out how to get it unprotected or maybe even what it meant because of DD saying that the snake being protected was time to tell Harry. The 'always thing' threw me in my maniacally fast first reading, but I definitely got it the second time. DD was the one with tears in his eyes, he realized what it meant and thats why he said 'After all this time?' because it had been 15 years or somewhere around there (cant remember what year it was).



RiftDoggy wrote:
1. Snape ALWAYS knew what Harry thought of him (it was at the front of his mind when they were anywhere near each other; Snape couldn't help but notice). He just didn't care.

2. Snape didn't just decide to die in his death scene, there was a definite air of "Holy crap a snake is flying at me, OH ____!" He did have the sense to give Harry his memories when he saw him, though. If Harry hadn't been there... D:

3. Did anyone else get a LITTLE confused in the "Always" scene, when there were "tears in his eyes"? It wasn't quite as specific as I would like, in terms of WHO had tears in their eyes. It could go either way, and I must have missed some crucial part of the sentence. Just wondering.