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Mollywobbles
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Snape pulled Harry out of the pensieve in OOTP, but not in DH, Snape was deader than a doornail. Harry got out on his own.



amm1 wrote:

Mollywobbles wrote:
Well, this kind of brings me back to my original question. If Snape didn't want Harry to see his memories during the Occlumency lessons, and put all his secret "Lily" memories in the pensieve, why didn't Harry see them all-the ones Snape gave up just before his death? Why did Harry only see, in OOTP, the whole thing with the Mauraders and Snape calling Lily a Mudblood?

And while this isn't specifically about Snape, I remember threads on the older boards about how was Harry going to get out of the pensieve. Previously, he had gone into the pensieve with Dumbledore intentionally, or when he peeked, he got hauled out either by Dumbledore or Snape. I believe we also wondered about the runes and symbols on the pensieve, and thought that Hermione might figure them out, but that didn't happen in DH. So how did Harry figure out how to exit the pensieve under his own steam?



This may be one of those things we can each read as we want. I take it at face value because I see Snape as truly being angry and not acting.

In Deathly Hallows, Snape/JKR gave Harry the memories Harry would need to see and we have no way of knowing whether any of those memories were ones Snape tried to hide from Harry in OoP.

JKR showed us in OoP only what she wanted us to see. She wasn't going to give us the whole Snape loving Lily memory or any of the other memories just yet. I don't see a problem here.

Harry didn't exit on his own. Snape pulled him out.

Message Edited by amm1 on 08-10-2007 02:40 PM


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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



Mollywobbles wrote:
Snape pulled Harry out of the pensieve in OOTP, but not in DH, Snape was deader than a doornail. Harry got out on his own.




He's Harry. :smileyhappy: Seriously, why worry about how Harry got out of the Pensieve in DH? He has been in and out of them numerous times.
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Mollywobbles
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Well, I'm not going to lose any sleep about how Harry got out of the pensieve, he had been in and out numerous times, but was always pulled out by somebody else. Wondering about why Harry didn't see all Snape's Lily memories earlier, in OOTP, just reminded me about the earlier thread. I think, as some have suggested, that the reason Harry didn't see the other memories, was because the author didn't want us to see them until the very end. Still, it's one of those little niggling issues. I also thought it would have been neat if Hermione had translated the runes which contained a user manual for the pensieve:smileyhappy:.

br>

amm1 wrote:


Mollywobbles wrote:
Snape pulled Harry out of the pensieve in OOTP, but not in DH, Snape was deader than a doornail. Harry got out on his own.




He's Harry. :smileyhappy: Seriously, why worry about how Harry got out of the Pensieve in DH? He has been in and out of them numerous times.


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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

You led me to another question. If Snape wanted to hide them in Harry, would the best place be to place them in a pensieve within view of Harry? Why not put them in a vial, bottle, flask, jar, whatever and stick the container in a cupboard!? Snape was smart, he would have hid them away IMO if he wanted to stop Harry from seeing it, I still think he wanted Harry to see it.



Mollywobbles wrote:
Well, this kind of brings me back to my original question. If Snape didn't want Harry to see his memories during the Occlumency lessons, and put all his secret "Lily" memories in the pensieve, why didn't Harry see them all-the ones Snape gave up just before his death? Why did Harry only see, in OOTP, the whole thing with the Mauraders and Snape calling Lily a Mudblood?

And while this isn't specifically about Snape, I remember threads on the older boards about how was Harry going to get out of the pensieve. Previously, he had gone into the pensieve with Dumbledore intentionally, or when he peeked, he got hauled out either by Dumbledore or Snape. I believe we also wondered about the runes and symbols on the pensieve, and thought that Hermione might figure them out, but that didn't happen in DH. So how did Harry figure out how to exit the pensieve under his own steam?



amm1 wrote:
If you think about it, many of the theories floating around before the last book...well, some of us made much more out of something than we should have. For the most part JKR was fairly straightforward. I think it's the same with the Pensieve scene. Snape didn't want to take a chance on Harry seeing at least three of his memories and he took them out. An unexpected incident happened and Snape had to leave the room and Harry, being the nosey person he is, couldn't help himself. The rest is history.

I don't believe Snape ever wanted Harry to see his memories. JKR needed a way to show the readers some of Snape's past and she used the Occlumency lessons and the Pensieve as her means.

For a setup to have occurred, Snape had to have been waiting for just the right moment to leave. He could have thought of a million and one reasons to do so before the time he actually did leave. Plus he would have to be acting when he returned and caught Harry. I prefer to read it as is. Snape was furious that Harry dared to view his memories. It's not an act.





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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

So Patty, was Snape acting? :smileywink:
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Mollywobbles
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

That has been at the root of my problem with these pensieve issues. First, Snape knows that Harry is a snoop. Second, Snape lets Harry see him extracting memories and stashing them in the pensieve. Third, why only that one memory in OOTP, why not all of the Lily memories?



PattyBNUChick wrote:
You led me to another question. If Snape wanted to hide them in Harry, would the best place be to place them in a pensieve within view of Harry? Why not put them in a vial, bottle, flask, jar, whatever and stick the container in a cupboard!? Snape was smart, he would have hid them away IMO if he wanted to stop Harry from seeing it, I still think he wanted Harry to see it.



Mollywobbles wrote:
Well, this kind of brings me back to my original question. If Snape didn't want Harry to see his memories during the Occlumency lessons, and put all his secret "Lily" memories in the pensieve, why didn't Harry see them all-the ones Snape gave up just before his death? Why did Harry only see, in OOTP, the whole thing with the Mauraders and Snape calling Lily a Mudblood?

And while this isn't specifically about Snape, I remember threads on the older boards about how was Harry going to get out of the pensieve. Previously, he had gone into the pensieve with Dumbledore intentionally, or when he peeked, he got hauled out either by Dumbledore or Snape. I believe we also wondered about the runes and symbols on the pensieve, and thought that Hermione might figure them out, but that didn't happen in DH. So how did Harry figure out how to exit the pensieve under his own steam?



amm1 wrote:
If you think about it, many of the theories floating around before the last book...well, some of us made much more out of something than we should have. For the most part JKR was fairly straightforward. I think it's the same with the Pensieve scene. Snape didn't want to take a chance on Harry seeing at least three of his memories and he took them out. An unexpected incident happened and Snape had to leave the room and Harry, being the nosey person he is, couldn't help himself. The rest is history.

I don't believe Snape ever wanted Harry to see his memories. JKR needed a way to show the readers some of Snape's past and she used the Occlumency lessons and the Pensieve as her means.

For a setup to have occurred, Snape had to have been waiting for just the right moment to leave. He could have thought of a million and one reasons to do so before the time he actually did leave. Plus he would have to be acting when he returned and caught Harry. I prefer to read it as is. Snape was furious that Harry dared to view his memories. It's not an act.








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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

It looks that way to me.


amm1 wrote:
So Patty, was Snape acting? :smileywink:


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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

As I said, I do believe we can all read this as we wish. I think it was nothing more than JKR finally giving us a glimpse into the personal life of Snape. Putting the Pensieve out in full view was a plot device that had to be done this way. Otherwise Harry would know nothing of it. That still doesn't prove it was a setup for Harry. But to each their own. Seems a shame and boring, though, to take away Snape's anger. He hates the boy and he anger was real. IMO, of course. :smileyhappy:

But whether James really did take off Snape’s pants, Harry never found out. A hand had closed tight over his upper arm, closed with a pincerlike grip. Wincing, Harry looked around to see who had hold of him, and saw, with a thrill of horror, a fully grown, adult-sized Snape standing right beside him, white with rage.

"Having fun?"

Harry felt himself rising into the air. The summer’s day evaporated around him, he was floating upward through icy blackness, Snape’s hand still tight upon his upper arm. Then, with a swooping feeling as though he had turned head over heels in midair, his feet hit the stone floor of Snape’s dungeon, and he was standing again beside the Pensieve on Snape’s desk in the shadow, present-day Potions master’s study.

"So," said Snape, gripping Harry’s arm so tightly Harry’s hand was starting to feel numb. "So…been enjoying yourself, Potter?"

"N-no…" said Harry, trying to free his arm.

It was scary: Snape’s lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared.

"Amusing man, your father, wasn’t he?" said Snape, shaking Harry so hard that his glasses slipped down his nose.

"I – didn’t –"

Snape threw Harry from him with all his might. Harry fell hard onto the dungeons floor.

"You will not repeat what you saw to anybody!" Snape bellowed.
pg 649

"No," said Harry, getting to his feet as far from Snape as he could. "No, of course I w ---"

"Get out, get out, I don’t want to see you in this office ever again!"

And as Harry hurtled toward the door, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded over his head. He wrenched the door open and flew away up the corridor, stopping only when he had put three floors between himself and Snape. There he leaned against the wall, panting, and rubbing his bruised arm.

snip

What was making Harry feel so horrified and unhappy was not being shouted at or having jars thrown at him – it was that he knew how it felt to be humiliated in the middle of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how Snape had felt as his father had taunted him, and that judging from what he had just seen, his father had been every bit as arrogant as Snape had always told him.
pg 650,/b.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I think Snape was still plenty angry about a ton of other things, and to me, I always thought it was on purpose, so its not boring imo that way either : )



amm1 wrote:
As I said, I do believe we can all read this as we wish. I think it was nothing more than JKR finally giving us a glimpse into the personal life of Snape. Putting the Pensieve out in full view was a plot device that had to be done this way. Otherwise Harry would know nothing of it. That still doesn't prove it was a setup for Harry. But to each their own. Seems a shame and boring, though, to take away Snape's anger. He hates the boy and he anger was real. IMO, of course. :smileyhappy:

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Psychee
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

OK, like I said above, in OOTP Harry only saw one memory in the pensieve... the other two memories were stuff that were still in Snape's head.

I think we could imagine that Harry only saw the last memory that Snape put there and was pulled out before he could see more.

I think we also have to imagine that the two situations -- the one in OOTP and the one in DH are very different. In the one in OOTP, Snape was selectively choosing which ones he was putting in there. In DH, though, he did a whole memory dump -- remember those memories were coming out of his eyes and ears and mouth, etc., all at once? Maybe when you do a memory dump like that, the person who reviews them gets to see them in chronological order.

As for how Harry got out, all I can say is that he managed to get out of the diary memory when it was over all by himself and that is good enough for me to believe that when the pensive memories were over, he was extricated as well. Either that or else he just learned that when you want to leave, you can just think that thought and it will happen.

I do not believe that Snape ever wanted Harry to see that first pensieve memory... there is no canon at all to suggest it or to use as back-up.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I just can't see how someone like Snape would stick the memory in the pensieve in full view of Harry. He would have put it in something and hid it imo. Also, what was the pensieve doing there in the first place? Isn't it usually in Dumbledore's office?


Psychee wrote:
OK, like I said above, in OOTP Harry only saw one memory in the pensieve... the other two memories were stuff that were still in Snape's head.

I think we could imagine that Harry only saw the last memory that Snape put there and was pulled out before he could see more.

I think we also have to imagine that the two situations -- the one in OOTP and the one in DH are very different. In the one in OOTP, Snape was selectively choosing which ones he was putting in there. In DH, though, he did a whole memory dump -- remember those memories were coming out of his eyes and ears and mouth, etc., all at once? Maybe when you do a memory dump like that, the person who reviews them gets to see them in chronological order.

As for how Harry got out, all I can say is that he managed to get out of the diary memory when it was over all by himself and that is good enough for me to believe that when the pensive memories were over, he was extricated as well. Either that or else he just learned that when you want to leave, you can just think that thought and it will happen.

I do not believe that Snape ever wanted Harry to see that first pensieve memory... there is no canon at all to suggest it or to use as back-up.


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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I just can't see how someone like Snape would stick the memory in the pensieve in full view of Harry. He would have put it in something and hid it imo. Also, what was the pensieve doing there in the first place? Isn't it usually in Dumbledore's office?




It seems to be Dumbledore's Pensieve. Doesn't sound at all unusual that Snape would not want to take a chance on Harry entering his mind. They were practicing Occlumency at the time. Sounds smart to me.

If Snape didn't put the Pensieve in full view then the readers would not have seen this memory. See? Why not just blame Harry for once for doing something he shouldn't have.

We can go around and say Snape had no way of knowing that Harry even knew what a Pensieve was or that Snape trusted Harry...haha...I could think of quite a few things for why Snape would have no problem putting his thoughts away in front of Harry. It does read well for us..."Ooohhhh, I wonder what Snape is hiding."

If Snape was so intent on Harry seeing his memories, why didn't Snape leave the room in any of their other sessions? Do you think he was just waiting for the right moment, hoping something would happen where he would need to leave the room? That's the problem with these types of theories. It all becomes so hard to imagine. This has to happen, and then that and then this and then....

Ah well, this scene is over and done and as far as I can see there's nothing to even question. No further comment was ever made of it in the other books because there is nothing else to wonder about. The focus should be on the memory, not some grand scheme for Harry to see it. But hey, someone can ask JKR and she may prove me wrong. Then again, if someone asks her later she may prove me right. :smileyhappy:
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JenniG0812
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



dancingchick094 wrote:
Really? You think his parents cared enough about him to buy him a toothbrush? :]





PattyBNUChick wrote:
lol, I like the shudder : ) You know, maybe before Hogwarts even, who knows. I'm thinking his teeth probably weren't yellow back then for one thing.


RiftDoggy wrote:
*shudders* I don't know...I think...no...yes...no...no...yes...I DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, though, ...I don't know. I can...almost...maybe...see it? I mean, by third or fourth year, Lily would have noticed that he was a bit...in love with her D:

I can almost see it. Maybe once. Or not. Or maybe. Nah. Possibly. No.

If they had, James would probably know, and I don't know if he'd kiss someone Slimy Stinky Severus Snape had kissed. Though, the "Sev" name seems just about right in a kissing situation.

"Sev..."

EWWWWWWW. God, WHY did you have to plant that image in my head...!?!?!?!?!










Okay, maybe I just skimmed over that part in the book, but where does it talk about him having yellow teeth? The greasy hair is all over the series, but the teeth thing I missed. Can you help me.
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JenniG0812
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



dancingchick094 wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
I know me to : ) I can't get over the doe. I liked Snape, thought he was DDs man, but I still kept thinking his patronous would be something mean looking or slimy or something, but wow that doe.



Luthien wrote:





Haha me too. I wonder if his Patronus was always a doe, or if it changed after Lily died. What do you think?





I thought the same thing. She said his patronus was important and we know that you can change your patronus in difficult times(we saw this with Tonks); however, when Harry asks Voldy if he ever saw Snapes patronus he does not say yes. We all know that he was a DE for a little bit after he left school and before Lily died. One would think that in all that time he might have used his patronus at least once in the presence of Voldy unless it was a Doe from the beginning. Perhaps this is why he thought that there was a better way to fight off dementors(The essay Snape had given before DD died). Using his patronus would have given away his secret. He did not want to show the students of Hogwarts or anyone else that the mean, cold, cruel Snape had a doe as his patronus. That would appear a little odd. I think maybe Harry would be the only one of the students to figure out the connection...maybe.
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JenniG0812
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



RiftDoggy wrote:
Random Bit: My Favorite Memory of Snape

I just finished rereading Chamber of Secrets yesterday, and I LOVED Snape. This was the only time I remember him being fun. The Dueling Club scene with Prof. Lockheart was pretty good (the first time I ever sympathised with Snape), but the Valentine's Day bit was the funniest part of the entire book:

Ron pointed to the teacher's table, apparently too disgusted to speak. Lockhart, wearing lurid pink robes to match the decorations, was waving for silence. The teachers on either side of him were looking stony-faced. From where he sat, Harry could see a muscle going in Professor McGonagall's cheek. Snape looked as though someone had just fed him a large beaker of Skele-Gro.
"Happy Valentine's Day!" Lockhart shouted. "And may I thank the forty-six people who have so far sent me cards! Yes, I have taken the liberty of arranging this little surprise for you all--and it doesn't end here!"
Lockhart clapped his hands and through the doors to the entrance hall marched a dozen surly-looking dwarfs. Not just any dwarfs, however. Lockhart had them all wearing golden wings and carrying harps.
"My friendly, card-carrying cupids!" beamed Lockhart. "They will be roving around the school today delivering your valentines! And the fun doesn't stop here! I'm sure my colleagues will want to enter into the spirit of the occasion! Why not ask Professor Snape to show you how to whip up a love potion! And while you're at it, Professor Flitwick knows more about Entrancing Enchantments than any wizard I've ever met, the sly old dog!"
Professor Flitwick buried his face in his hands. Snape was looking as though the first person to ask him for a Love Potion would be force-fed poison.


--Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (p.236, paperback), c. Jo Rowling.

I love Snape, don't you?




Yes I do!! Way more than a married women should love a fictional character!!
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread



dancingchick094 wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
Well, yes, attracted to them in different ways I guess. I do remember kissing one boy that I was just really close friends with, well I guess just because lol





But if Lily kissed Snape, don't you think she might've gone out with him or something? I mean, she married James, the person he despised the most, and i can't imagine Lily just changing her taste in guys so fast. You know?





Perhaps they kissed just before the whole mudblood scene. That might be part of the reason that Lily took it so hard.? I know that I would be pretty crushed if he kissed me then called me a nasty name.
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amm1
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread


RiftDoggy or Random Bit wrote:
I love Snape, don't you?




JenniG0812 wrote:
Yes I do!! Way more than a married women should love a fictional character!!



ROFL. I'll join the crowd. My DH use to come in my computer room and ask me how Harry was doing and I'd always tell him it wasn't Harry but Snape.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

I don't have the book in front of me, but the HP Lexicon website has this listed as part of his description:

"uneven, yellow-ish teeth" (POA Chapter 14).




JenniG0812 wrote:
Okay, maybe I just skimmed over that part in the book, but where does it talk about him having yellow teeth? The greasy hair is all over the series, but the teeth thing I missed. Can you help me.


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HPSeeker
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

Also remember that true remorse (though it could almost kill a person) can heal a soul, which may be what happened to Snape's soul (if he had murdered as a Death Eater) through his infinitely deep remorse over Lily's death.
: Donna



ABI wrote:
I think, well, his murders were all faultless, really. DD told him to kill him; he nearly went mad with guilt for the murder of Jame's and Lily---and i really think, though he loathed James, he was human enough to feel some remorse for James too. Snape's soul will be badly tarnished, but I think his regret for these deeds, and his good intentions will keep him out of wizard hell, or whatever you're referring to. But I agree, Snape has to be the most classically tragic character---i feel so bad for him! What exactly did he live for? The memory of Lily? To protect her son? Probably DD; he wanted to make up for what he did. Though no matter how tragic, thinking honestly about his character, i realize it couldn't have been him crying---it just doesn't fit. I'm really surprised he didn't just commit suicide!






______________________________________________________________________________

Glassslipper wrote:
Snape is a very tragic character - unrequited love - the most tragic story told again and again - and what it leads people to do. Very very sad - his last scene to look into Harry's eyes - Lily's eyes - so tragic a life ... and.... DEATH. Where will he be in the afterlife - what will his and Lily's afterlife be? He saved the boy again and again just to give him up - same as DD, so where does that leave his soul - Lily's death, James' death, murder of DD and countless other implied deaths - what does his life's work of savings Lily's son mean when he gives him up in the end? Death is no relief for Snape's tragic life.
______________________________________________________________________________

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HPSeeker
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Re: **SPOILERS** -- The Snape Thread

J.K. wrote this the way she did, largely to leave that open to our individual interpretations as to what and where an afterlife would be. She only gave a glimpse into what Harry saw when he was in between life and death and projected what Voldemort's death would be like. She really didn't elude to anyone else's because the only time others appeared, it was in support of Harry in one way or another.
: Donna



amm1 wrote:

Glassslipper wrote:smileyfrustrated:nape is a very tragic character - unrequited love - the most tragic story told again and again - and what it leads people to do. Very very sad - his last scene to look into Harry's eyes - Lily's eyes - so tragic a life ... and.... DEATH. Where will he be in the afterlife - what will his and Lily's afterlife be? He saved the boy again and again just to give him up - same as DD, so where does that leave his soul - Lily's death, James' death, murder of DD and countless other implied deaths - what does his life's work of savings Lily's son mean when he gives him up in the end? Death is no relief for Snape's tragic life.




The problem is we don't truly know what death brings in the Potter world. We have a glimpse but its small. My guess is, going by the appearance of Dumbledore, Sirius and Lupin, there is relief in the afterlife. Snape's happiness after his death is hopefully not based upon Lily. What kind of afterlife would that be? We get a glimpse of James, Lily, Dumbledore, Sirius and Lupin. JKR should have given us some hint of what happened to Snape.