Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. We've said goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

Reply
Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Are you referring the "For the Greater Good" stuff with Grindelwald.  To me that was more an adolescent if-I-were-King-of-the-world episode. 

 

 

But Dumbledore's approach was very different from Gruenwald's.  Where GG wanted to use their power for evil to dominate and enslave muggles, DD was very conscious of the magi's responsibility to do good and govern the muggles compassionately. 

 

 


Mollywobbles wrote in part:
...I have never been able to get past Dumbledore's betrayals.  I've tried, but I can't seem to get there.  Sadly, I've never been fond of idols with feet of clay, and Dumbie is wearing concrete sneaks.

 


 

Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007

Re: Things that get you all choked up


Jules934 wrote:

Are you referring the "For the Greater Good" stuff with Grindelwald.  To me that was more an adolescent if-I-were-King-of-the-world episode. 

 

 

But Dumbledore's approach was very different from Gruenwald's.  Where GG wanted to use their power for evil to dominate and enslave muggles, DD was very conscious of the magi's responsibility to do good and govern the muggles compassionately. 

 

 


Mollywobbles wrote in part:
...I have never been able to get past Dumbledore's betrayals.  I've tried, but I can't seem to get there.  Sadly, I've never been fond of idols with feet of clay, and Dumbie is wearing concrete sneaks.

 

 

Uh oh...  lol ....  Jules, you don't know what a hornet's nest you are getting into.  Mollywobbles could write a book about her anger at Dumbledore!  :smileyhappy:    Most of it has to do with how he manipulated people (and risked injury to them) to bring about the final demise of Voldemort, though.

 

 

Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Thanks for the Heads Up.  Did she ever post at the Harry Potter Ultimate Fan Club site on MSM.  There was a lively "Dumbledore Is Evil" thread there for a long, long time?

 

I guess he was, but he did it all to get Voldy eliminated.  And Voldy had to be eliminated.  I guess that's part of the whole Greater Good issue.

Distinguished Correspondent
Mollywobbles
Posts: 2,931
Registered: ‎06-15-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Very wise words, Psychee.  Never wise to poke the hornet's nest. 

 

Jules, you would have to go back pages and pages on this board to read about my disillusionment about Dumbie.  He's just in my bad books, and never will emerge on the right side.  Unless, of course, Rowling redeems him somehow in a subsequent book...I'd like that.

 

Until then, he's just a manipulator.


Psychee wrote:


Jules934 wrote:

Are you referring the "For the Greater Good" stuff with Grindelwald.  To me that was more an adolescent if-I-were-King-of-the-world episode. 

 

 

But Dumbledore's approach was very different from Gruenwald's.  Where GG wanted to use their power for evil to dominate and enslave muggles, DD was very conscious of the magi's responsibility to do good and govern the muggles compassionately. 

 

 


Mollywobbles wrote in part:
...I have never been able to get past Dumbledore's betrayals.  I've tried, but I can't seem to get there.  Sadly, I've never been fond of idols with feet of clay, and Dumbie is wearing concrete sneaks.

 

 

Uh oh...  lol ....  Jules, you don't know what a hornet's nest you are getting into.  Mollywobbles could write a book about her anger at Dumbledore!  :smileyhappy:    Most of it has to do with how he manipulated people (and risked injury to them) to bring about the final demise of Voldemort, though.

 

 


 

Reader-Moderator
agnijay
Posts: 1,987
Registered: ‎06-14-2007

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Mollywobbles; I've never voiced my thoughts on this (as far as I can remember) but I must say that I agree with you.

 

Dumbledore is one of those characters who I percieve as a bad guy, but I really want him to be good, and in my mind, he has not redeemed himself. I still have hope, though the fact that he would ever RECOGNIZE that Harry should be killed is disconcerting to me.

☼☺♥ Jaya ♥☺☼

If we crawl/ Till we can walk again/ Then we'll run/ Until we're strong enough to jump/ Then we'll fly/ Until there is no end.
Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up


agnijay wrote:

Mollywobbles; I've never voiced my thoughts on this (as far as I can remember) but I must say that I agree with you.

 

Dumbledore is one of those characters who I percieve as a bad guy, but I really want him to be good, and in my mind, he has not redeemed himself. I still have hope, though the fact that he would ever RECOGNIZE that Harry should be killed is disconcerting to me.


I don't understand the bolded part of your post, Jaya.  Could you explain that a bit more to me?

Reader-Moderator
agnijay
Posts: 1,987
Registered: ‎06-14-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Just the fact that he accepted that Harry will die without every really even disputing it in his own mind. It's kinda confusing in words, but it makes sense in my head.

☼☺♥ Jaya ♥☺☼

If we crawl/ Till we can walk again/ Then we'll run/ Until we're strong enough to jump/ Then we'll fly/ Until there is no end.
Distinguished Correspondent
Mollywobbles
Posts: 2,931
Registered: ‎06-15-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Thank you Jaya, finally a kindred spirit-have a laurel!

 

I won't go into this in detail again, taking pity on the old timers who have been subjected to my rants about Dumbledore for some time, but I, too, was a staunch Dumbledore supporter, up until DH.  After HBP, I desperately tried to find ways that Dumbledore was not dead..he "morphed" into a phoenix, he inhabited his portrait, but once DH was out, I lost all respect for him as a character.  I've tried in subsequent readings to rehabilitate him, but it just doesn't work.


agnijay wrote:

Mollywobbles; I've never voiced my thoughts on this (as far as I can remember) but I must say that I agree with you.

 

Dumbledore is one of those characters who I percieve as a bad guy, but I really want him to be good, and in my mind, he has not redeemed himself. I still have hope, though the fact that he would ever RECOGNIZE that Harry should be killed is disconcerting to me.


 

Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

But Dumbledore was not evil, just misunderstood.

 

From Harry’s survival of Voldemort’s attack, Dumbledore knew Voldemort could not kill Harry and also knew what had happened to save Voldemort from death then and there.  And more, when he realized that Voldemort was using horcri to avoid death, he knew that Voldemort could not be killed while they existed.

 

Everything hinged on Lily’s Charm -- on what did and did not happen in the graveyard.

 

Two charms protected Harry’s life.  One was Lily’s Charm, the ancient magic invoked on Harry by the fact of his mother’s sacrifice. It prevented Voldemort from killing him.  The second was a Blood Charm, which Dumbledore cast over Harry, offering him general protection while he could call “home” the house of his last living blood relative, Petunia Dursley. 

 

What happened, and what did not happen, when V used Harry’s blood in his rebirthing potion is critical. 

 

At the time of SS, Voldemort could not physically touch Harry.  After his rebirth, Voldemort could touch him; obviously that aspect of the Blood Charm had been overcome.  JKR, typically cryptic, doesn’t explain this, and perhaps deliberately leaves us to misunderstand, but since eventually she does tell us that, in the graveyard, Harry’s blood strengthened Lily’s Charm, it could only have been the Blood Charm that it weakened, and only with respect to Voldemort.  Lily’s Charm remained in force.

 

Only Dumbledore understood the connections.  Not Harry; not even Snape.  And if anyone else learned of it, with Voldemort’s powers of legilemency, it would have been disaster.  The six horcri had to be magically destroyed.  The bit of Voldemort’s soul in Harry had to be destroyed without killing Harry.  Then, and only then, could Voldemort die.  But if Harry, or anyone else, were to kill him, their soul would be damaged.  Such damage was unacceptable to Dumbledore.  The only way was via a reenactment of the original event where Voldemort died by his own hand.  The Prophecy never came to pass.

 

Did Dumbledore have any choice other than to do what he did?  Was he wrong to have done it?

Distinguished Correspondent
Mollywobbles
Posts: 2,931
Registered: ‎06-15-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

A nice summary, Jules, and I should point out that I never suggested Dumbledore was evil, just manipulative and deceptive.  Dumbledore may have taken the steps that he thought were "for the greater good", and he did try to put protections in place, but nonetheless, he was fully prepared to put Harry's life, and, by extension, the lives of Ron and Hermione, on the line.  As he said, his mistakes could be bigger, too.  All this while bleating about how much he cared about Harry.  I think Snape's assessment was the best. Keeping Harry alive so he could die at the right time.

 

Yes, there were other things Dumbledore could have done.  Of course, Rowling didn't want the plot to work out that way, but there were other things.  Just as an example, Dumbledore, after seeing Tom Riddle in the orphanage, could have decided not to invite him to Hogwarts.  Riddle would have lived life as a muggle, granted with unusual powers, but he wouldn't have done as much damage because he wouldn't have gotten the training.  Second.  After Voldemort was hit by the backfiring AK when trying to kill Harry, Dumbledore, with his connections and pull at the MOM, could have gotten the biggest time turner (Rowling hadn't crushed them yet) and pushed Tom Riddle under the wheels of a bus on his way to Hogwarts.  It wouldn't have saved James and Lily, but it would have eliminated the second coming of Voldemort.  Yes, the world might have been changed, but would it have been any worse?

 

No Dumbledore has a lot to answer for.  His passive acceptance that Harry must die, all the while saying how much affection he had for him, is just too much.  It doesn't track.

 

Sorry Jules.  This isn't something that "gets me all choked up", it's something that gets me all riled up.  Soapbox folded.


Jules934 wrote:

But Dumbledore was not evil, just misunderstood.

 

From Harry’s survival of Voldemort’s attack, Dumbledore knew Voldemort could not kill Harry and also knew what had happened to save Voldemort from death then and there.  And more, when he realized that Voldemort was using horcri to avoid death, he knew that Voldemort could not be killed while they existed.

 

Everything hinged on Lily’s Charm -- on what did and did not happen in the graveyard.

 

Two charms protected Harry’s life.  One was Lily’s Charm, the ancient magic invoked on Harry by the fact of his mother’s sacrifice. It prevented Voldemort from killing him.  The second was a Blood Charm, which Dumbledore cast over Harry, offering him general protection while he could call “home” the house of his last living blood relative, Petunia Dursley. 

 

What happened, and what did not happen, when V used Harry’s blood in his rebirthing potion is critical. 

 

At the time of SS, Voldemort could not physically touch Harry.  After his rebirth, Voldemort could touch him; obviously that aspect of the Blood Charm had been overcome.  JKR, typically cryptic, doesn’t explain this, and perhaps deliberately leaves us to misunderstand, but since eventually she does tell us that, in the graveyard, Harry’s blood strengthened Lily’s Charm, it could only have been the Blood Charm that it weakened, and only with respect to Voldemort.  Lily’s Charm remained in force.

 

Only Dumbledore understood the connections.  Not Harry; not even Snape.  And if anyone else learned of it, with Voldemort’s powers of legilemency, it would have been disaster.  The six horcri had to be magically destroyed.  The bit of Voldemort’s soul in Harry had to be destroyed without killing Harry.  Then, and only then, could Voldemort die.  But if Harry, or anyone else, were to kill him, their soul would be damaged.  Such damage was unacceptable to Dumbledore.  The only way was via a reenactment of the original event where Voldemort died by his own hand.  The Prophecy never came to pass.

 

Did Dumbledore have any choice other than to do what he did?  Was he wrong to have done it?


 

Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

[ Edited ]

We agree in principle. 

 

Just one other aspect -- Dumbledore did not put Harry in the original danger; Voldemort did that when he decided to kill Harry.

 

From the beginning then, DD was protecting Harry from Voldemort.  After Godrick's hollow. he enlisted Snape in the cause.  To do that, he had to

(1) see that the soul bit lodged in Harry was destroyed without killing the boy and

(2) then see that Voldemort was disposed of without damaging Harry's soul, or anyone else's, in the process, leaving it to Snape to decide if his own soul would be damaged if complied with the request.

 

Altho I do think that he would have deliberately damaged his if it came to that.   

Distinguished Correspondent
Mollywobbles
Posts: 2,931
Registered: ‎06-15-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Agreed that Voldemort was the ultimate evil

 

However, had Dumbledore dealt with young Tom Riddle, the problem might not have arizen.

 

Also, it wasn't a question of whether Snape's soul would be damaged by destroying Harry or Voldemort, it was a question of whether Snape thought his soul might be damaged by killing Dumbledore.

 

Had Dumbledore dealt effectively with Tom Riddle the first time around, there would have been no issue of soulbits, because Tom wouldn't have been at Hogwarts and given the opportunity to find out about his Slytherin heritage and horcruxes.  How many lives would have been saved? 

 

I can forgive Dumbledore his mistakes, he didn't have the benefit of Trelawney's crystal balls or tea leaves, but I can't forgive him his callous use of these kids, and the clever way he drew them into his schemes.


Jules934 wrote:

We agree in principle. 

 

Just one other aspect -- Dumbledore did not put Harry in the original danger; Voldemort did that when he decided to kill Harry.

 

From the beginning then, DD was protecting Harry from Voldemort.  After Godrick's hollow. he enlisted Snape in the cause.  To do that, he had to

(1) see that the soul bit lodged in Harry was destroyed without killing the boy and

(2) then see that Voldemort was disposed of without damaging Harry's soul, or anyone else's, in the process, leaving it to Snape to decide if his own soul would be damaged if complied with the request.

 

Altho I do think that he would have deliberately damaged his if it came to that.   


 

Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

I see your point.  He was wrong.  But that was our story.

 

What I never understood was why he didn't go after Grindelwald when he showed his dark side instead of waiting so long.  DD knew what he was capable of, his view of the muggle world and his plans for it. 

 

As far as Voldemort goes, I dont;t understand why DD didn't tangle with him when he began to show his true color either.  Once he knew about the horcri, I can see no reason for DD to challenge him. it would only prove to Voldy that he was unkillable.  But if DD didn't suspect them, or even one of them, until Harry told him what had happened in the Chamber of Secrets........but he never attempted until OtP.  If he had moved when he was younger and Voldy didn't have his final strength.........after all, why should a horcrux be stronger magic than the Elder Wand?????????????

 

But that would have been another story entirely. 

Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up


Jules934 wrote, in part:

 

 

What I never understood was why he didn't go after Grindelwald when he showed his dark side instead of waiting so long.  DD knew what he was capable of, his view of the muggle world and his plans for it. 

 


He had been in love with him.  He didn't want to have to fight him.  He avoided it as long as he could.   I think it is a lot easier to go after a bad guy if you have never had a personal romantic relationship with him, don't you think? 

Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

[ Edited ]

Perhaps, but there are overriding issues.  Grindelwald did use the Cruciatus on both Aberforth and Ariana. And may well have cast the AK that took Ariana's life.  If it hadn't have been intended for her, it was intended for Abeforth or Dumbledore himself. 

 

But more importantly, Grindelwald at least stretched the bounds of ordinary evil, if he didn't go beyond them too.  And the overriding issue was that Dumbledore was the only one who could defeat him.  He knew he had the edge skill-wise.  Difficult as it may have been, it was his duty to do what he put off doing for so long during Grindelwald's reign of terror.  It may even have been more merciful than if a number of lesser wizards and witches had joined forces to attach him simultaneously.

Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Actually, I don't think we know if an actual AK curse was ever used.  Ariana might have just gotten in the way of one of the many spells that cause explosions.  The problem with an AK spell, see, is that for Dumbledore to have wondered if he had caused the death, he would have had to have been using the AK, too, and I doubt that.

Inspired Scribe
Jules934
Posts: 1,582
Registered: ‎06-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

[ Edited ]

Good point.  Have a laurel.  I'll list it as very unlilely, reserving "extremely" because of his possible reaction to his brother's and sister's torture, his youth and his extreme reluctance to use it again. 

 

As long as we're here, another thing I always wondered about was why Dumbledore never used his pensieve to find who had cast the fatal spell.  Then I realized that it may not have been because of the possibility of learning that his own spell was responsible.  I figured he was man enough to live with that. 

 

Now I wonder if it wouldn't have been harder to accept his borther as the castor, or perhaps his lover.

 

With that, I find us right back on topic.  How 'bout that Connie?

Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Thanks for the laurel! 

 

Since JKR spelled that out in the text -- that Dumbledore was NOT man enough to face any kind of truth about possibly having killed Ariana himself, I think we have to accept that as a given.  He lived with the shame of the possibility, but he thought he would be destroyed by real knowledge of that.  That was his rationale to Harry as to why he never pursued Grindelwald early on -- he was afraid he would learn that he was the killer.

Reader-Moderator
agnijay
Posts: 1,987
Registered: ‎06-14-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up

Ah, but do you think it would have been worse for him to see how misguided his judgement was; that he had fallen in love with the man who killed his sister? Or do you think it would have been worse for him to realize that he himself had done it?

☼☺♥ Jaya ♥☺☼

If we crawl/ Till we can walk again/ Then we'll run/ Until we're strong enough to jump/ Then we'll fly/ Until there is no end.
Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Things that get you all choked up


agnijay wrote:

Ah, but do you think it would have been worse for him to see how misguided his judgement was; that he had fallen in love with the man who killed his sister? Or do you think it would have been worse for him to realize that he himself had done it?


 

The latter, I think.  He already knew he had made a mistake in the love department.  How many of us can say that we haven't?  But killing your own sister?  To a man with a conscience, that's more horrible than dying yourself, I think.