Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

[Mollywobbles]

I think Dumbledore might have been able to hide the elder wand successfully. When he found out he had maybe a year to live as a result of the ring curse, he could have stashed the elder wand and gone back to using his former wand. Dumbledore was still a skilled wizard, even with his damaged hand. He might have been defeated more easily with his old wand, but he was defeated, by chance, anyway.

If Dumbledore had hidden the elder wand, the person defeating him would be the master of the wand, but wouldn't have the actual wand. The new master would have had to hunt for the actual wand to claim mastery of it. I don't know whether an "accio elder wand" would have worked, maybe it would have, but if Dumbledore had protected the location of the wand with enchantments, maybe not. It would also presume that the person defeating Dumbledore knew that Dumbledore possessed the legendary wand, and nobody suspected that but Voldemort. If Voldemort had come into possession of Dumbledore's old wand, thinking it to be the elder wand, things probably wouldn't have unfolded any differently, Voldey still would have had Nagini kill Snape, but he still wouldn't have had the actual wand. The elder wand would sit in its hidden location waiting for it's master to find it. Harry, of course, might have had a much harder time defeating Voldemort without the link to the elder wand,the battle between the two of them might have been a closer thing. Still, I'm glad Harry did become the master of the wand, because he was able to use it to repair his good old holly and phoenix wand.

As to Dumbledore's portrait filling Snape in out of our perspective, could be. But leaky Snape would probably have given up that memory to Harry as well, I don't think at that point he was being selective about what memories he divulged, seems he leaked anything that pertained to Harry. Perhaps, however, Dumbledore's portrait figured there was no point in filling Snape in, because things hadn't worked out as planned, Snape didn't end up with the wand. But it still left Draco a little exposed, had any of the people on the tower told Voldey that it was Draco who had disarmed Dumbledore. If Voldey had figured out the disarming thing, based on his meeting with Grindelwald and putting two and two together, it could have been Draco who was sacrificed, rather than Snape.

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Psychee wrote:

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Mollywobbles wrote: (in part)
br>
As to what Dumbledore could have done differently-how about just hiding the thing and using another wand. Dumbledore must have had another wand before he came into possession of the elder wand, why not go back to using that one? Dumbledore knew he was dying, and whether he died as a result of the curse, or died at someone elses hand, he would not have been holding the elder wand, which could have remained hidden.

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Hiding it would not have worked. Using another wand would open up the chance that he would be defeated while still alive and that mastery of the wand would then transfer to another person. Remember, the Master did not have to be using the wand for the wand to know that the master had been defeated. Harry defeated Draco when the wand was still hidden away in Dumbledore's tomb.

But I agree about the Snape situation, Mollywobbles. Snape had no notion, insofar as we know, that he was going to look like the Master of the Elder Wand when Voldemort finally figured things out. And that left him vulnerable because he could not anticipate Voldemort subsequently killing him.

On the other hand, Dumbledore's portrait might have explained things to him about this outside our viewpoint. It still would have been a done thing, though, too late to change after the fact.

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[Mollywobbles]

I think you're right MrsRW, Griphook, even though he knew Harry was a different kind of wizard, still didn't fully trust any wizard. He also had the yen for the sword and wouldn't go as far to trust that Harry would keep his word. Griphook must have been really ticked off when the sword was summoned by Neville, after all the trouble he had gone to to help the kids break into the vault. It should prove to Griphook that the sword truly belonged to Gryffindor, regardless of who made it, or that it might have been taken from, whathisname, Ragnok.

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mrsronaldweasley wrote:
I think it’s because Griphook was a greedy goblin. I do think he sincerely think Harry is a good wizard. However just like elves, they have a different mentality, just like Dobby, who has adjusted and accepted the importance of freedom for being enslaved by wizards. Goblins on the other hand, put real importance on their gold. I think they have a big issue about insecurity ,. They ‘almost’ act like wizards. Most wizards, as displayed by Ted Tonks and Co., converse with Goblins as if their human, because wizards acknowledge their intelligence, unlike the way most of them treat giants, elves, and werewolves. Goblins, knowing this information think they should be given more credit for their wonderful creations such as swords, etc. I think Griphook wanted to help HRO get to the vault. He of course knew the dangers within Gringgotts if one dare to trespass, so it wouldn’t make sense to go that far and not be sincere in helping HRO. but I do think it’s his greediness that got him to take the sword and leave HRO like that .

Goblins can’t accept that humans can afford to do whatever they can, buy whatever they have , and take whatever they want. Goblins want to be able to do the same, but unfortunately can’t. so Griphook, thinking Harry is a great wizard and all is still a wizard and cannot be fully trusted. But I bet griphook felt sorry after doing what he did. He’s an annoying goblin, I swear. Maybe he did it for prestige: he lent a hand on Harry Potter’s mission to defeat the Dark Lord, and he retrieved the missing sword of gryfindor .

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[Mollywobbles]

Griphook's conduct wasn't particularly scrupulous in any respect. He had been a gringott's employee and consented to help the kids break in. Perhaps he thought they would never escape, and so he wasn't really being unfaithful to his former employer, but that's a pretty fine distinction. Also, Griphook had no authority to be in gringotts any longer, but he was willing to break that rule too. The gringott's goblins were supposed to keep the secrets of the place, and Griphook gave many of them away. Griphook not only didn't help the kids escape, he drew attention to them by shouting "thieves". This was probably just so he himself could escape to safety with the sword. Perhaps Griphook didn't feel any more allegiance to gringotts since there had been a change in management, but he still did have some sort of personal code of conduct-he was insulted when Ron offered him gold instead of the sword. I think, however, that you are right about Harry not being specific enough in his deal with Griphook. Had Harry said, get us in and out, Griphook might have acted differently.

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Psychee wrote:

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Mollywobbles wrote:
Why did Griphook act so treacherously? If it was just the distrust between Wizard and Goblin, why did he agree to help HRH burgle the Lestrange vault? I know he wanted the gryffindor sword, and in the first part of the burglary, he seems to be acting in good faith-warning the kids that the gringott's staff were suspicious etc. But all of a sudden, once the cup is located, Griphook lunges for it and "in that instant Harry knew that the goblin had never expected them to keep their word". I wonder why Griphook went along with the scheme if he didn't think they would keep their word. Griphook did owe Harry for rescuing him from the Malfoy manor, and he had seen how much regard Harry had for Dobby-so why the about face?

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I know Griphook's behavior was treacherous from a human perspective, but was it also dishonorable from a Goblin's perspective?

Think about it. The deal was that if Griphook helped them get into the vault and retrieve the cup, the sword would be earned. There was nothing in that contract that said that Griphook should also help them get OUT safely. Griphook honored his contract and nothing more. Once the cup was found, Griphook took off with his "pay".

Harry should have dealt with Griphook in the same exacting manner he had learned to deal with bad Kreacher. But he didn't. He assumed that Griphook would see things the way a human did, and he erred in that regard.

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[Psychee]

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Mollywobbles wrote:
I think Dumbledore might have been able to hide the elder wand successfully. When he found out he had maybe a year to live as a result of the ring curse, he could have stashed the elder wand and gone back to using his former wand. Dumbledore was still a skilled wizard, even with his damaged hand. He might have been defeated more easily with his old wand, but he was defeated, by chance, anyway.

If Dumbledore had hidden the elder wand, the person defeating him would be the master of the wand, but wouldn't have the actual wand. The new master would have had to hunt for the actual wand to claim mastery of it. I don't know whether an "accio elder wand" would have worked, maybe it would have, but if Dumbledore had protected the location of the wand with enchantments, maybe not. It would also presume that the person defeating Dumbledore knew that Dumbledore possessed the legendary wand, and nobody suspected that but Voldemort. If Voldemort had come into possession of Dumbledore's old wand, thinking it to be the elder wand, things probably wouldn't have unfolded any differently, Voldey still would have had Nagini kill Snape, but he still wouldn't have had the actual wand. The elder wand would sit in its hidden location waiting for it's master to find it. Harry, of course, might have had a much harder time defeating Voldemort without the link to the elder wand,the battle between the two of them might have been a closer thing. Still, I'm glad Harry did become the master of the wand, because he was able to use it to repair his good old holly and phoenix wand.

But neutralizing that wand was important for humanity in the long term, Mollywobbles. For centuries it had been used to hurt people, and there would always be a newcomer on the scene ready to be the the next tyrant. No matter how well hidden the wand was, there would always be the chance that it would surface again. Dumbledore was thinking long-term. He was the first owner of the wand with benevolent intentions and he didn't trust anyone in the future to be able to turn down that lure of power. Some weapons are just too dangerous for humanity to have use of and this was one of them.

[Mollywobbles]

Argh! Here's that whole "greater good" thing which so infuriates me about Dumbledore. The elder wand had gone through who knows how many hands since its origin, how do we know Dumbledore was the only one with benign intentions? Other people, in the history of the wand, may have wanted to neutralize the wand's power, but failed, just as Dumbledore did. As of the end of the book, the wand still isn't neutralized, because Harry has to die a natural death. If you are correct, Dumbledore was thinking of future generations, and risked the present, very real danger, of Voldemort getting mastery of the wand when he could have other steps to conceal the wand from Voldemort.

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Psychee wrote:

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Mollywobbles wrote:
I think Dumbledore might have been able to hide the elder wand successfully. When he found out he had maybe a year to live as a result of the ring curse, he could have stashed the elder wand and gone back to using his former wand. Dumbledore was still a skilled wizard, even with his damaged hand. He might have been defeated more easily with his old wand, but he was defeated, by chance, anyway.

If Dumbledore had hidden the elder wand, the person defeating him would be the master of the wand, but wouldn't have the actual wand. The new master would have had to hunt for the actual wand to claim mastery of it. I don't know whether an "accio elder wand" would have worked, maybe it would have, but if Dumbledore had protected the location of the wand with enchantments, maybe not. It would also presume that the person defeating Dumbledore knew that Dumbledore possessed the legendary wand, and nobody suspected that but Voldemort. If Voldemort had come into possession of Dumbledore's old wand, thinking it to be the elder wand, things probably wouldn't have unfolded any differently, Voldey still would have had Nagini kill Snape, but he still wouldn't have had the actual wand. The elder wand would sit in its hidden location waiting for it's master to find it. Harry, of course, might have had a much harder time defeating Voldemort without the link to the elder wand,the battle between the two of them might have been a closer thing. Still, I'm glad Harry did become the master of the wand, because he was able to use it to repair his good old holly and phoenix wand.

But neutralizing that wand was important for humanity in the long term, Mollywobbles. For centuries it had been used to hurt people, and there would always be a newcomer on the scene ready to be the the next tyrant. No matter how well hidden the wand was, there would always be the chance that it would surface again. Dumbledore was thinking long-term. He was the first owner of the wand with benevolent intentions and he didn't trust anyone in the future to be able to turn down that lure of power. Some weapons are just too dangerous for humanity to have use of and this was one of them.

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[Psychee]

He took a calculated risk, Mollywobbles, and it worked out. At the end of the story the wand may not have lost its power, but another wizard, a better man, Harry, can now carry the responsibility of the wand and see to it that the wand loses its power OR, in the event that Harry is ever defeated while using his phoenix wand, figure out a means of regaining Mastery again.

Dumbledore could have never given up use of that wand while things were so critical. People depended upon him to have magic that no one else had. The risks to humanity could have been worse with Dumbledore alive but relatively enfeebled compared to the power he had with the wand. He needed to be strong; everyone counted on him.

[Kreacherteacher]

The thing that bugs me about the whole elder wand is that people who didn't know about it before surely have to know about it now. So Harry is still in danger as he is the true owner of the wand. It just doesn't sit well with me that it ends there. There are power hungry people out there who would give anything for that wand.

[Auror_in_Train…]

Who's going to mess with Harry? He saved everyone from the evil guy and he defeated the evil guy.

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Kreacherteacher wrote:
The thing that bugs me about the whole elder wand is that people who didn't know about it before surely have to know about it now. So Harry is still in danger as he is the true owner of the wand. It just doesn't sit well with me that it ends there. There are power hungry people out there who would give anything for that wand.

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[mrsronaldweasl…]

Good point. Why did he have to shout “thieves” . if he didn’t care so much as to what happened once he gets successful in getting HRO in, why does he have to add fuel to the fire by putting them in more danger?

I understand his part of the deal was over. If it is honorable of Griphook to help get the sword of Gryffindor why does he have to escape like that? Does he want to keep the sword for himself? Do Goblins steal from each other? It’s not a matter of what Goblins think is right or wrong. If you look outside the box, what Griphook did was bad, and almost killed HRO. If someone thinks he deserves to starve to death, will you grant him his wish?

[Mollywobbles]

Griphook was helping the kids get the cup that was stashed in the Lestrange vault, his payment for this service was the sword of Gryffindor, which Hermione had stashed in the beaded bag. I think the issue with Griphook, as Bill Weasley said, was that they have a very different perspective on ownership of goblin made items. A goblin may have made an item for a wizard, and been paid for it, but the goblin way of thinking is that it is just "rented" to the wizard, and should come back to the goblin once the purchasing wizard dies-it shouldn't be considered as permanent ownership. This is why he wanted the sword of Gryffindor back-he regarded it as having been stolen from goblins.

I still think his conduct doesn't bear close scrutiny, even from a goblin perspective, as he broke many off the goblin rules in exchange for the opportunity to get the sword back.

I wonder what happened to Griphook. When he shouted "thieves", he escaped with the sword to the side of the gringotts goblins who were trying to catch HRH. They must have questioned Griphook about what he was doing in gringotts when he had no authority to be there. Of course, he probably could just claim that the evil wizards had imperiused him, and only when he came to his senses, was he able to "liberate" the sword of Gryffindor. Sounds like something Griphook would do, and something the other goblins would believe. I guess they would believe anything bad about wizards.

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mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Good point. Why did he have to shout “thieves” . if he didn’t care so much as to what happened once he gets successful in getting HRO in, why does he have to add fuel to the fire by putting them in more danger?

I understand his part of the deal was over. If it is honorable of Griphook to help get the sword of Gryffindor why does he have to escape like that? Does he want to keep the sword for himself? Do Goblins steal from each other? It’s not a matter of what Goblins think is right or wrong. If you look outside the box, what Griphook did was bad, and almost killed HRO. If someone thinks he deserves to starve to death, will you grant him his wish?

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[Mollywobbles]

He did indeed take a risk, but his plan wasn't for Harry to have the wand, it was for Snape to have the wand, without understanding the significance of the wand, and that was a huge risk. The fact that Harry ended up with the wand was pure happenstance, not part of Dumbledore's master plan. Dumbledore can not claim any credit for the fact that a better man ended up with the wand.

I can agree with your argument that Dumbledore needed the power of the elder wand, up until the point where he knows he is going to die from the ring curse. Absolutely, Dumbledore needed the wand to fight Voldemort at the MOM, and to try and locate the horcruxes and get through the protective enchantments placed on them. I think, however, once Dumbledore had been stricken by the ring curse, he might have altered his plan somewhat to take steps to conceal the wand. Yes, with his damaged hand, he would have been less able to fight. But, in HBP, Dumbledore spends most of his time away from Hogwarts, presumably hunting for Horcruxes and researching Riddle. But,once he has found the ring horcrux, he really doesn't know where the other remaining horcruxes are any better than Harry does-just the suspicion about Nagini, and something of Ravenclaws etc. We don't really see him doing much serious magic, other than trying to get through the enchantments in the cave. Did he need the power of the elder wand for this, maybe, but maybe his original wand would have worked too. The turning point for me would have been when he makes the bargain with Snape regarding his own death. If he didn't entrust Snape with the information about the elder wand, and I can understand why he didn't, I think the better course of action would have been to hide the thing.

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Psychee wrote:
He took a calculated risk, Mollywobbles, and it worked out. At the end of the story the wand may not have lost its power, but another wizard, a better man, Harry, can now carry the responsibility of the wand and see to it that the wand loses its power OR, in the event that Harry is ever defeated while using his phoenix wand, figure out a means of regaining Mastery again.

Dumbledore could have never given up use of that wand while things were so critical. People depended upon him to have magic that no one else had. The risks to humanity could have been worse with Dumbledore alive but relatively enfeebled compared to the power he had with the wand. He needed to be strong; everyone counted on him.

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[Mollywobbles]

Auror, I think anybody with a lust for power could try to locate the elder wand, just as KreacherTeacher says. Just because Voldemort is toast, doesn't mean there aren't other evil beings about. Even Ron felt the lure of the elder wand. Everybody who was present at the showdown between Voldey and Harry, heard the story about the Elder Wand, I think it unlikely that that juicy bit of information is going to be kept secret. Although Harry is careful, when talking to Dumbledore's portrait, about what to do with the wand, I think the other portraits will figure out that Harry intends to return the wand to Dumbledore's tomb. Certainly Hermione and Ron understand this. Even Xeno Lovegood said there were a whole bunch of questers looking for the Hallows, now the trail has heated up again.

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Auror_in_Training wrote:
Who's going to mess with Harry? He saved everyone from the evil guy and he defeated the evil guy.

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Kreacherteacher wrote:
The thing that bugs me about the whole elder wand is that people who didn't know about it before surely have to know about it now. So Harry is still in danger as he is the true owner of the wand. It just doesn't sit well with me that it ends there. There are power hungry people out there who would give anything for that wand.

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[mrsronaldweasl…]

Plus, kreacher and dobby is cuter than griphook. Puhlease! Lol I imagine he got away though. Griphook knew the whole building is in chaos especially because one of the most well guarded vaults has been trespassed. Ad he probably looked like any Goblin and they wouldn’t be able to recognize him because of all the commotion going on..
But what I can imagine is this…

It was the night of the battle at Hogwarts.
Griphook is sitting by the fire, like rumplestiltskin
Ready to have dinner with the sword…
**ahh.. my sweet.. I shall be praised above all the others…
I shall be Goblin prime minister…
You I will have a long journey togethahhh…


Back at Hogwarts, VD is taunting Neville,
“join me…. You will be great…
NO!” says Neville, and VD seta him on fire with the hat on…



Griphook meanwhile is about to put his dry wrinkly lips on the silver blade of the glimmering sword and then **ching!!!!


“I shall conquer you harry potter!!!”
the sword is gone…
so much for my story telling skills. lol

[Mollywobbles]

Hah! Exactly. Griphook would have been furious! All that time and treachery wasted, not to mention getting burned by all the objects in the vault. Serves him right.

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mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Plus, kreacher and dobby is cuter than griphook. Puhlease! Lol I imagine he got away though. Griphook knew the whole building is in chaos especially because one of the most well guarded vaults has been trespassed. Ad he probably looked like any Goblin and they wouldn’t be able to recognize him because of all the commotion going on..
But what I can imagine is this…

It was the night of the battle at Hogwarts.
Griphook is sitting by the fire, like rumplestiltskin
Ready to have dinner with the sword…
**ahh.. my sweet.. I shall be praised above all the others…
I shall be Goblin prime minister…
You I will have a long journey togethahhh…


Back at Hogwarts, VD is taunting Neville,
“join me…. You will be great…
NO!” says Neville, and VD seta him on fire with the hat on…



Griphook meanwhile is about to put his dry wrinkly lips on the silver blade of the glimmering sword and then **ching!!!!


“I shall conquer you harry potter!!!”
the sword is gone…
so much for my story telling skills. lol

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[Mollywobbles]

Have to leave you for a while MRSRW, have an excellent day!

[mrsronaldweasl…]

Hah! That’s why I love you wobbles you have a mean streak going on with you and yo stick to it!
My griphook is ugly and doublecrossing and nothing will change that, lol!

**I read your post, that was an impersonation


**get back here!!! I was just warming up!!!!!!! Shaking a fist in the air furiously

[Mollywobbles]

Lol, it comes from being a Leo-you know, pushy, arrogant, a bully, and vain to boot!

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mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Hah! That’s why I love you wobbles you have a mean streak going on with you and yo stick to it!
My griphook is ugly and doublecrossing and nothing will change that, lol!

**I read your post, that was an impersonation


**get back here!!! I was just warming up!!!!!!! Shaking a fist in the air furiously

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[mrsronaldweasl…]

Wobbles you’re back!!! I was meaning to ask you what your star sign is… and you said it!!!! You are one helluva psychic divinasion ola teacher!

[Mollywobbles]

As far as I know, I am the only declared/sorted Leo, there may be others lurking, or unwilling to confess to being a Leo. Of course, Harry was a Leo, so I'm in good company.

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mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Wobbles you’re back!!! I was meaning to ask you what your star sign is… and you said it!!!! You are one helluva psychic divinasion ola teacher!

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[Psychee]

Mollywobbles, while he was in search of those Horcruxes, he needed the extra power of the wand. He had reason to suspect that each of them had powerful magical protections on them, and he had already almost died from one of them. He did some incredible magic in that cave -- seeing the invisible writing, figuring out through all his various other spells not working that the potion had to be consumed (Had he not used the elder wand to try the other stuff first, he would have had to go back, find the hidden wand, and try the spells all over again with the elder wand before he consumed the poisonous stuff, don't you think?) and then there was the fire -- Dumbledore's fire spells were a trademark move and I think they got their incredible power from that wand -- but if not, then one would could also imagine that it would take less effort for him to produce that protecting fire with that wand, and that was what saved them both from the Inferi.

And that whole cave scene happened immediately before he was killed.

I don't think he ever had a real window of opportunity to put that wand in hiding.


Harry was so careful about describing the "objects" in front of the portraits that he never mentioned that the wand was the famous wand of legend. All those portraits saw was Dumbledore's wand.

I also rather imagine that when Harry returned the wand to Dumbledore's tomb, he added a bunch of powerful magical protections to keep it there... he wasn't dumb!