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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I believe I agreed that dumbledore needed the power of the elder wand in the horcrux search, fighting at the MOM etc. I'm just not convinced that his old wand might not have been as effective in detecting the magic in the cave-by that time Dumbledore knew he was dying. Are you suggesting that his old wand would not have produced the protective fire ring? Or are you suggesting that because Dumbledore was less capable due to his cursed hand, that spells using his old wand might not have been as effective, and therefore he needed the extra zip from the elder wand? I agree, the window of opportunity was slim between the locket search and the tower. There doesn't seem to be any prohibition against a wizard carrying two wands at once. When Dumbledore and Harry are flying back to Hogwarts, after the dark mark appears over the tower, Dumbledore could have just dropped the elder wand in the forest, or in the lake. Sure, Dumbledore didn't know he would meet his death there and then, but he new something bad was afoot, and he also knew he was weakened by the potion in the basin. His wonderful plan to either die a natural death, succumb to the ring curse, or have Snape, by agreement, kill him without defeating him, all went for naught the moment Draco disarmed him. Yet still, Dumbledore, I think in that Severus Please comment, asked Snape to AK him-even though the power of the wand had now passed to Draco-the wand was not neutralized. Had Dumbledore taken the additional precaution of ditching the EW in the forest or lake, nobody would have known that Dumbledore's original wand was not the Elder wand. Sorry, that's pretty convoluted, but Dumbledore was a pretty devious guy.

Harry did mention, in the headmasters office, in front of the other portraits "I'm putting the Elder Wand, " ...back where it came from" The portraits would have known it was Dumbledore's wand, and that it had been buried with Dumbledore. And, of course, Ron and Hermione knew the entire story. It wouldn't have been too hard to put it together.

Harry undoubtedly did put enchantments on Dumbledore's tomb, and for sure,he wasn't dumb! But, if Harry is ever defeated or disarmed, even if not in possession of the actual elder wand, it changes ownership. With the story of the Elder Wand being now very much alive following the battle, there's probably another hallows quester out there willing to give it a go.



Psychee wrote:
Mollywobbles, while he was in search of those Horcruxes, he needed the extra power of the wand. He had reason to suspect that each of them had powerful magical protections on them, and he had already almost died from one of them. He did some incredible magic in that cave -- seeing the invisible writing, figuring out through all his various other spells not working that the potion had to be consumed (Had he not used the elder wand to try the other stuff first, he would have had to go back, find the hidden wand, and try the spells all over again with the elder wand before he consumed the poisonous stuff, don't you think?) and then there was the fire -- Dumbledore's fire spells were a trademark move and I think they got their incredible power from that wand -- but if not, then one would could also imagine that it would take less effort for him to produce that protecting fire with that wand, and that was what saved them both from the Inferi.

And that whole cave scene happened immediately before he was killed.

I don't think he ever had a real window of opportunity to put that wand in hiding.


Harry was so careful about describing the "objects" in front of the portraits that he never mentioned that the wand was the famous wand of legend. All those portraits saw was Dumbledore's wand.

I also rather imagine that when Harry returned the wand to Dumbledore's tomb, he added a bunch of powerful magical protections to keep it there... he wasn't dumb!


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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Mollywobbles, do you think JKR might have left that Elder wand issue open at the end on purpose? It WOULD provide the basis for a new chapter in the saga if she ever wanted to write more...
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I think it would an excellent opportunity for a new book in the saga! I also thought the last line of the epilogue presaged the same thing, something like his scar hasn't hurt for 19 years. I can see another novel beginning with Harry having a burning pain in his scar, and he knows the tomb has been opened and the elder wand stolen. (although why the scar would burn, I haven't figured out yet, but it seemed to have a lot of dramatic appeal for me!) Since theft is an acceptable defeat, off we go again. Older Harry, perhaps assisted by James and ASP have to once again track down the wand.

I also thought it was rather nifty that the epilogue left a gap of 19 years. It gives a whole lot of opportunity at some stage of the game to fill in the events which occurred in that time period. Pretty clever of her, all things considered.



Psychee wrote:
Mollywobbles, do you think JKR might have left that Elder wand issue open at the end on purpose? It WOULD provide the basis for a new chapter in the saga if she ever wanted to write more...


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snapessister
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

[ Edited ]

Psychee wrote:
Mollywobbles, do you think JKR might have left that Elder wand issue open at the end on purpose? It WOULD provide the basis for a new chapter in the saga if she ever wanted to write more...




"Albus Potter and the Elder Wand" Young Albus Potter, Slytherin seeker, finds it when running into the dark forest. Later, he uses it to disarm an unprepared Harry after a qurrel in the Potter home about whose Hogwart's house is more popular. He then experiments with the wand, and with it, he is able to perform difficult and complex spells not ever attempted by a second year. With it he is able to survive encounters with Spiders, snakes, werewolves, and other such creatures that Harry had not encountered at hogwarts (linfold?). A thrill seeker, He decides to become an Animagus in secret, eventually he uses it to become the most powerful Jedi-opps-I mean Wizard ever. And his father may end up being the only Auror who can stop him from his self destructive habits.

Message Edited by snapessister on 11-18-2007 07:48 AM
ABI
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ABI
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



Psychee wrote:
Mollywobbles, do you think JKR might have left that Elder wand issue open at the end on purpose? It WOULD provide the basis for a new chapter in the saga if she ever wanted to write more...


My truthful opinion is that...well, I don't WANT her to write another chapter. I think the series is as complete as it should be, and it would be excessive for her to go on. I adore HP, but it should not be dragged on farther than is necessary. At the moment, I see the series as a complete piece of work and I marvel at her ability to really wrap things up. I don't want HP to become one of those endless sci-fi series, which are great, but every so once and a while, for people like me...that classic plot starts to annoy. The HP series is complete and it should stay as such.

Note that this is my *opinion.*
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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macross
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

That would be intresting.
On a wing and a prayer.
ABI
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ABI
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Good morning macross! :smileyhappy: come to save me from this lonely plight?
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I'd so read anything she wrote including any additional HP stories, but I think it would be a long time before she ever wrote anything related to HP besides the encyclopedia. Even then, I think she would make the stories so that they didn't directly include Harry. She would want to take it in a fresher direction for her own creative needs.



ABI wrote:
My truthful opinion is that...well, I don't WANT her to write another chapter. I think the series is as complete as it should be, and it would be excessive for her to go on. I adore HP, but it should not be dragged on farther than is necessary. At the moment, I see the series as a complete piece of work and I marvel at her ability to really wrap things up. I don't want HP to become one of those endless sci-fi series, which are great, but every so once and a while, for people like me...that classic plot starts to annoy. The HP series is complete and it should stay as such.

Note that this is my *opinion.*


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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

And a fine and wonderful good morning goes out to Macross and Abi.
ABI
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ABI
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Either way, I dislike the idea of continuing on like that . . . dunno. I think she should abandon the entire HP world. Sounds harsh.

Of course I would not by any means restrain myself on reading them if she did. :smileyhappy:
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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Auror_in_Training
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

[ Edited ]
the next book could be entitled Rebuilding the MoM; we get to see the years immediately following the defeat of the dark lord - who is imprisoned, our trio is accepted to Auror school, Ginny follows them to Auror school, . . . through the birth of baby James. I marry George, you know yadi yadi . . . Ties up loose ends for me.










ABI wrote:


Psychee wrote:
Mollywobbles, do you think JKR might have left that Elder wand issue open at the end on purpose? It WOULD provide the basis for a new chapter in the saga if she ever wanted to write more...


My truthful opinion is that...well, I don't WANT her to write another chapter. I think the series is as complete as it should be, and it would be excessive for her to go on. I adore HP, but it should not be dragged on farther than is necessary. At the moment, I see the series as a complete piece of work and I marvel at her ability to really wrap things up. I don't want HP to become one of those endless sci-fi series, which are great, but every so once and a while, for people like me...that classic plot starts to annoy. The HP series is complete and it should stay as such.

Note that this is my *opinion.*



Message Edited by Auror_in_Training on 11-18-2007 11:03 PM
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macross
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

More like rebuliding the wizarding world. Because after that I bet it was all topsey turvey. Or how about the wizards finnally reveal themselves to the muggles. I can see it now. It be like X-men. Were mutants are hunted down or disliked.
On a wing and a prayer.
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Here’s something that’s bothering me.if Dumbledore knew Riddle made Horcruxes, why didn’t he pursue on destroying them as soon as he found out about it?
Voldemort came to Dumbledore to apply as Hogwarts teacher., he saw what remained of Voldemort’s body when he declared himself the Darl Lord… im sure Dumbledore would’ve guessed VD definitely split his soul to become immortal? Does this mean DD bid his time and put off stopping VD? Did DD wait for proof, something like Riddle’s diary, to pop out and prove his suspicions? Why then? and yeah, if he knew he was going to let Snape kill him, why cant he have given Harry more information to help?
o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Dumbledore did suspect that Voldemort had created Horcruxes, but he didn't have any proof until Harry brought him the killed diary in COS. Then, by the cavalier way in which Voldey treated the diary-because it was a weapon in addition to a horcrux, Dumbledore figured Riddle must have made more than one. Dumbledore had to devote some time to researching Riddles life, and in the summer between OOTP and HBP, Dumbledore tracks down the ring, because his hand is damaged at the start of HBP. However, Dumbledore doesn't know how many horcruxes Riddle has made because Slughorn has tampered with his own memory, and it's only then that they figure out Voldey intended to make 6 horcruxes.



mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Here’s something that’s bothering me.if Dumbledore knew Riddle made Horcruxes, why didn’t he pursue on destroying them as soon as he found out about it?
Voldemort came to Dumbledore to apply as Hogwarts teacher., he saw what remained of Voldemort’s body when he declared himself the Darl Lord… im sure Dumbledore would’ve guessed VD definitely split his soul to become immortal? Does this mean DD bid his time and put off stopping VD? Did DD wait for proof, something like Riddle’s diary, to pop out and prove his suspicions? Why then? and yeah, if he knew he was going to let Snape kill him, why cant he have given Harry more information to help?


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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Theres still something missing wobbles…. Admit it! Because Dumbledore always have shrewd ideas…. He figured there are seven Horcruxes.
Im sure he didn’t really need to have slughorns memory to prove his theory.
Plus VD was already killing and dominating even before Harry’s time. And again, he saw Voldy with the snake face already.i do not understand why professor dd had to wait for all those years?
o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

[ Edited ]

mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Here’s something that’s bothering me.if Dumbledore knew Riddle made Horcruxes, why didn’t he pursue on destroying them as soon as he found out about it?
Voldemort came to Dumbledore to apply as Hogwarts teacher., he saw what remained of Voldemort’s body when he declared himself the Darl Lord… im sure Dumbledore would’ve guessed VD definitely split his soul to become immortal? Does this mean DD bid his time and put off stopping VD? Did DD wait for proof, something like Riddle’s diary, to pop out and prove his suspicions? Why then? and yeah, if he knew he was going to let Snape kill him, why cant he have given Harry more information to help?




We don't know what Dumbledore did before Voldemort's return, but I think we can assume that the bulk of the memories he collected as he was studying Voldemort's past life (e.g. Morfin and the house elf) had been collected in the years prior to Voldy's rebirth.

The diary, though, gave him not only clear evidence of Horcrux creation, but also gave him the suspicion that Voldy had made more than one, since he had also made that one into a weapon and had not hidden it very safely away.

No wizard had ever made more than one Horcrux until Voldemort.

Once Voldy returned at the end of the fourth book, Dumbledore got more active. We see him being away from Hogwarts for much of the fifth and sixth books, presumably looking for those other Horcruxes and following up clues. He still did not know, though, how many he was looking for until he finally got Slughorn's real memory toward the end of the sixth book.

I'm not sure I understand your last question; but are you suggesting that Dumbledore should have told Harry that he planned for Snape to kill him? I think that would have been too risky from his point of view, as Harry might not have accepted it well.

Message Edited by Psychee on 11-19-2007 01:32 PM
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

But Harry and the backfiring AK brought Voldemorts reign of terror to an end, at least for many years. I'm not sure that during the first reign, whether Dumbledore suspected horcruxes-I really think it was only when Harry got the horcrux/diary in COS that the penny dropped. Since Voldemort was such a secretive and scary dude, it took Dumbledore a long time to collect all the memories which gave clues as to where Riddle had been and what he had done. Without the real Slughorn memory, how would they have known that they were looking for 6 manufactured horcruxes...could have been any number.



mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Theres still something missing wobbles…. Admit it! Because Dumbledore always have shrewd ideas…. He figured there are seven Horcruxes.
Im sure he didn’t really need to have slughorns memory to prove his theory.
Plus VD was already killing and dominating even before Harry’s time. And again, he saw Voldy with the snake face already.i do not understand why professor dd had to wait for all those years?


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ProudBookWorm
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Just a thought,
Rufus Scrimgeour:

valiant death?
~Krissi~

"Do you have the time to listen to me whine"- "Basket Case" by Green Day

So...do you?
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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



ProudBookWorm wrote:
Just a thought,
Rufus Scrimgeour:

valiant death?




Very much so. He never cracked; he never told the DEs where Harry was and obviously refused to negotiate with them to save his own life.
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Another tiny question, I didn't get to do my usual silly Saturday questions-

Pius Thicknesse (I absolutely love that name) was Imperiused, wasn't he? Isn't that how the bad guys finally managed to take over the Ministry? But Pius died in the battle-just collateral damage? Can someone remind me who Imperiused Pius?