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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



blinkgirl89 wrote:
OK I was reread DH yesterday or should I say part of it and I realized that Ron says Voldemort's name. When did he start saying his name and also why is it that the death eater don't find them if they said his name(I am talking about when they are hiding at Grimmauls Place)and they did find them when they were in the forest?




They found them when the kids were out in the open, under just the protection of their own invisibility / protection spells, but Grimmauld Place had extra protections and they couldn't find them in there. They WERE able to get close, though, they just couldn't see the house... remember how the bad guys were keeping watch outside?
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

So can we conclude that grimauld place’s protection is much better and tougher than that of the burrow?

If VD has taken over the ministry and they can lift any magical enchantments like these types of protections, why can they lift the one up in Grimmauld Place?


I wonder what happened to grawp?
Who agrees that he was brought back to his natural habitat?
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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



mrsronaldweasley wrote:
So can we conclude that grimauld place’s protection is much better and tougher than that of the burrow?

If VD has taken over the ministry and they can lift any magical enchantments like these types of protections, why can they lift the one up in Grimmauld Place?


I wonder what happened to grawp?
Who agrees that he was brought back to his natural habitat?





Grimmauld Place had all the protections that Sirius' father had put on the place, plus the Secret Keeper protection that Dumbledore put on it...Voldy couldn't touch it... definitely better than the Burrow, which only was using, at the time, the same kind of charms that Hermione was using when the kids were camping...

Grawp was so docile at the end, that Hagrid might have kept him on as his assistant... He had such a child-like nature that I don't think he'd want to leave "Hagger"...

Besides that, he was a hero! He helped fight the giants working for Voldemort!
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agnijay
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Okay, so confirming my Trace knowledge. The ministry can detect the USE of magic... not the perpetrator, right? So if you live with wizards, than they know that there is constantly magic going on, and they don't know who cast it. BUT, in the case of Harry, it is known he is the only wizard in Little Whining... right? So that way they can tell if ANYONE in that area does magic, than it's him. But here's what I don't get. Let's say that Fred, George, Ron, and Ginny have the Trace on them. If so, than it makes sense that if magic is detected in that house, it has to be one of them, right? Because Molly, Arthur, Percy, and Charlie do not HAVE the Trace on them, so they can never tell whether or not THEY are doing magic. So, how come they don't know that it's the children who are doing the magic if they are not supposed to know if adults do magic due to the fact that adults can't have the Trace?
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



agnijay wrote:
Okay, so confirming my Trace knowledge. The ministry can detect the USE of magic... not the perpetrator, right? So if you live with wizards, than they know that there is constantly magic going on, and they don't know who cast it. BUT, in the case of Harry, it is known he is the only wizard in Little Whining... right? So that way they can tell if ANYONE in that area does magic, than it's him. But here's what I don't get. Let's say that Fred, George, Ron, and Ginny have the Trace on them. If so, than it makes sense that if magic is detected in that house, it has to be one of them, right? Because Molly, Arthur, Percy, and Charlie do not HAVE the Trace on them, so they can never tell whether or not THEY are doing magic. So, how come they don't know that it's the children who are doing the magic if they are not supposed to know if adults do magic due to the fact that adults can't have the Trace?




If the Trace alarm goes off at the Burrows, they would only know that magic has been done around one of the minor children and that happens all the time in a magical home. If the children have done it, the Ministry expects the parents to handle it.
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agnijay
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Yes, but the adults CAN'T have the Trace on them, so how would they know if Molly or Arthur did magic?
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



agnijay wrote:
Yes, but the adults CAN'T have the Trace on them, so how would they know if Molly or Arthur did magic?




If Molly or Arthur did magic in front of their kids, their kids' Traces would go off as a result of the magic happening in their (kids') immediate vicinity. The Ministry would not be able to know if the minor or his parents did the magic; all they would know is that magic happened by or near a minor.
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agnijay
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Thank you so much! I finally get it!
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

What has puzzled me about the whole trace thing, and the ministry being able to detect magic is the hover charm Dobby performed in COS. House elf magic is apparently quite different from wizard magic, why couldn't the ministry tell the difference? I also wonder why Harry just took the whole thing lying down...He knew it was Dobby who performed the charm, why didn't he object when he got the warning letter. Couldn't he have written a letter say to Dumbledore, and had Hedwig deliver it, explaining that he hadn't done the charm? Was he afraid of getting Dobby in trouble if he blew the whistle?
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I think that would be because they have the same kind of magic however different capabilities and powers, wizards and elves I mean. There’s always a flaw. Even in the magical government of hp. They set up the trace for underage wizards and threatens to send them to jail or be suspended from school for doing so in front of muggles or for doing the magic itself but still underage, but let the parents take care of the punishment if you’re like the weasley’s. I think that’s a bit odd.
:smileysurprised:
I think harry was acting on his ‘being a hero’ again. He surely felt bad for dobby punishing himself, but to tell DD? I would think Harry didn’t feel that close to DD to actually write a letter explaining what happned,. Harry was still young and didn’t realize how much powerful dd had to override the ministry..
But that trace thing is pretty stupid, if you cant tell who the perpetrator is if an underage did magic in a room full of wizards.
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Heres another one, I still think it was an error on jkr’s part that Charlie and his friends were able to fly into Hogwarts to get Norberta..even in SS we already know of the magic that protects Hogwarts and it’s security measures. I do think it unlike DD to not allow apparition/disapparition within Hogwarts grounds but brooms are allowed when huge towers are so much available for entry?
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



Mollywobbles wrote:
What has puzzled me about the whole trace thing, and the ministry being able to detect magic is the hover charm Dobby performed in COS. House elf magic is apparently quite different from wizard magic, why couldn't the ministry tell the difference? I also wonder why Harry just took the whole thing lying down...He knew it was Dobby who performed the charm, why didn't he object when he got the warning letter. Couldn't he have written a letter say to Dumbledore, and had Hedwig deliver it, explaining that he hadn't done the charm? Was he afraid of getting Dobby in trouble if he blew the whistle?




I would guess that the hover charm that Dobby used is also one that Wizards can do, using a wand. The difference is that the elves don't need to use a wand, and maybe don't even need an incantation.

I definitely think that Harry did not try to defend himself to the Ministry at that time because Dobby was a pitiful abused hostage to an unknown evil wizard who would have hurt Dobby more severely than ever if the Ministry investigated the matter. He might have even been killed by his master, considering how high the stakes were and that Dobby left the home in an unauthorized way, working against that master. Gosh, if he was treated like "vermin" when he was following orders, can you imagine how he would be treated if the master found out what he did? Balance that risk to Dobby with the handslap that Harry got from the Ministry, and you wind up saying that Harry really did the right thing.

But here's a question... when did Harry tell Dumbledore the whole story about Dobby's visit?
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



mrsronaldweasley wrote:
Heres another one, I still think it was an error on jkr’s part that Charlie and his friends were able to fly into Hogwarts to get Norberta..even in SS we already know of the magic that protects Hogwarts and it’s security measures. I do think it unlike DD to not allow apparition/disapparition within Hogwarts grounds but brooms are allowed when huge towers are so much available for entry?




I agree that the situation certainly wasn't all that secure, but at least, if a person arrived by broom, they would have to go through a door or an open window to get inside the castle and then walk through a public corridor to get to their intended victim. There was always a risk that they would be seen as an intruder and stopped.

Apparition could place them squarely where they wanted to be, getting in, doing damage, and getting out without a trace... Thus, it would make sense to me that if you were going to put in only a partial control, disallowing Apparition would be the highest priority.
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halfscripts
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

If I remember correctly, Dumbledore also knew about Charlie coming to get Norbert(a) in SS, so he could've lifted whatever enchantments there were guarding against broom entry for that night.

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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



halfscripts wrote:
If I remember correctly, Dumbledore also knew about Charlie coming to get Norbert(a) in SS, so he could've lifted whatever enchantments there were guarding against broom entry for that night.




I don't think Dumbledore knew that Charlie's friends were brooming in to collect Norbert; the only one who knew was Malfoy. The no-broom restrictions were added in the last year as part of the special security.
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Hm, so you and MRSRW are saying that the magic is the same, but the way it is performed is different..? Okay, I think that works for me, although something is nagging me about Fred or George describing elf magic as completely different from wizard magic.

I expect Harry didn't blow the whistle for fear of getting Dobby in more trouble, although at that point, Dobby had done nothing but get Harry into trouble, so that's a pretty magnanimous gesture for a 12 year old.

I can't remember when Dumbledore learned the whole story of the hover charm-I don't recall ever hearing Harry tell it to Dumbie, but he definitely found out somehow. There is a scene in one of the later books, possibly HBP? where Dumbledore is discussing underage magic with Harry, who is still smarting under the injustice of the first warning-and Dumbledore evidently knows that Harry didn't do the hover charm. Do you know the answer Psychee?

If we are speculating, my guess would be that Dobby confessed to Dumbledore when he applied for the job at Hogwarts-Dobby would probably feel compelled to come clean with his new employer.



Psychee wrote:


Mollywobbles wrote:
What has puzzled me about the whole trace thing, and the ministry being able to detect magic is the hover charm Dobby performed in COS. House elf magic is apparently quite different from wizard magic, why couldn't the ministry tell the difference? I also wonder why Harry just took the whole thing lying down...He knew it was Dobby who performed the charm, why didn't he object when he got the warning letter. Couldn't he have written a letter say to Dumbledore, and had Hedwig deliver it, explaining that he hadn't done the charm? Was he afraid of getting Dobby in trouble if he blew the whistle?




I would guess that the hover charm that Dobby used is also one that Wizards can do, using a wand. The difference is that the elves don't need to use a wand, and maybe don't even need an incantation.

I definitely think that Harry did not try to defend himself to the Ministry at that time because Dobby was a pitiful abused hostage to an unknown evil wizard who would have hurt Dobby more severely than ever if the Ministry investigated the matter. He might have even been killed by his master, considering how high the stakes were and that Dobby left the home in an unauthorized way, working against that master. Gosh, if he was treated like "vermin" when he was following orders, can you imagine how he would be treated if the master found out what he did? Balance that risk to Dobby with the handslap that Harry got from the Ministry, and you wind up saying that Harry really did the right thing.

But here's a question... when did Harry tell Dumbledore the whole story about Dobby's visit?


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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway



Mollywobbles wrote:
I can't remember when Dumbledore learned the whole story of the hover charm-I don't recall ever hearing Harry tell it to Dumbie, but he definitely found out somehow. There is a scene in one of the later books, possibly HBP? where Dumbledore is discussing underage magic with Harry, who is still smarting under the injustice of the first warning-and Dumbledore evidently knows that Harry didn't do the hover charm. Do you know the answer Psychee?




We learned that Dumbledore knew about Dobby's hover charm in OotP, when Dumbledore was defending Harry in front of the Ministry court. Dobby came to work at Hogwarts the year prior to that, so your idea about Dobby telling Dumbledore himself would work... He could have also learned it through the Weasleys... there is also that nagging thought, though, that Dumbledore had invisible ways of knowing everything that went on in Privet Drive...
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Charlie and brooms::
psyche I do understand you’re point about people in brooms being easier to capture than people who apparates in and out of a place to escape or to force entry. However, in the later books, we learned that for years DD believed in the possibility that VD is still out there biding his time, that thought was expressed even in book one. So would you think a wizard like DD would risk the simplicity if catching people who arrives at Hogwarts to trespass the place or would he rather completely prevent any unauthorized entry from any intruders he’s expecting especially if it’s a DE or worse VD himself? DD always felt the need to think ahead, im not sure why he would risk or not consider something as simple as this one. Why not avoid having trespassers altogether? So that’s my reason why I thought this is actually an error on JKR’s part. Although we can defend the reason, which is what you just said. But still… you know what I mean?

Halfscripts: I don’t think DD knew about Norberta in SS. Hagrid surely showed us how
He treasures DD’s trust and his love for his job as gamekeeper! But Hagrid sure reminds me of Lupin, being guilty of not telling DD about his friends becoming illegal animagis for him… I call it the necessary evil to keep someone’s trust.


Wobbles: how are you? I think there are elf magic that are only unique to them however very similar to that of wizards. Wizards control their powers by passing it through a wand and perform a charm , elves don’t need wands.. and perhaps wizards like DD can tell the diff of a magic performed by a diff specie I think. but the “trace” is an unfair rule especially to muggleborns and wizards like Harry. I think Harry didn’t explain himself to the ministry because he was still so oblivious and naïve to the wizarding world at the time, he didn’t even know anything about houseeleves and how most wizards treat them
Didn’t Harry explain to DD everything that happened when they were left alone at DD’s ofc in COS at the end of the book? I thought that’s how DD knew. But DD getting the info from Dobby himself is a good guess. :smileysurprised:

Long post, long post, im on a roll!!
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Hi MrsRW, I'm fine, and really glad to be talking about Harry again. Mind you, I'm snowed in at the moment, and likely to be stranded for the whole weekend.

House elf magic is different, and it just doesn't seem fair that the Ministry can't distinguish between the types of magic. Also, wizards don't always need a wand to do magic..Harry blew up Aunt Marge without using a wand-and he got a pass on that one from Fudge. I know there is a distinction between wizards under 11 who unconsciously do magic, and the consequences after they have been admitted to the wizarding world, but it still seems to be a law that can't be fairly applied because of the wide range of circumstances which may apply. I agree, the whole Trace thing is unreasonable-I'll bet loads of galleons that Fred and George did a whole lot of underage magic at the Burrow and got away with it. Also, it presumes that the parents will, in fact, control their kids use of magic. I can't see a family like the Malfoy's disciplining Draco for using magic at the manor-so it's really an unreliable tool.

This reminds me of another error in one of the first four movies-what else is new? In the intro, Harry is shown reading school books under the covers at Privet Dr. and using Lumos to read by...he would have been caught, don't you think?

I don't remember Harry explaining the hover charm thing to Dumbledore near the end of COS-I think he was too busy relating the events of diary and Riddle and the Basilisk. Then, when Lucius and Dobby turn up, there is no opportunity to do so, Harry just does the sock thing to free Dobby.

br>

Wobbles: how are you? I think there are elf magic that are only unique to them however very similar to that of wizards. Wizards control their powers by passing it through a wand and perform a charm , elves don’t need wands.. and perhaps wizards like DD can tell the diff of a magic performed by a diff specie I think. but the “trace” is an unfair rule especially to muggleborns and wizards like Harry. I think Harry didn’t explain himself to the ministry because he was still so oblivious and naïve to the wizarding world at the time, he didn’t even know anything about houseeleves and how most wizards treat them
Didn’t Harry explain to DD everything that happened when they were left alone at DD’s ofc in COS at the end of the book? I thought that’s how DD knew. But DD getting the info from Dobby himself is a good guess. :smileysurprised:

Long post, long post, im on a roll!!

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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Oh wobbles ive missed you (hugs wobbles) you’re so soft! Haha!

Nah I was referring to wizard practice to use a wand to control their magic.. I agree they can do magic without wands, like the example you gave me. Perhaps that’s one weakness of a wizard compared to an elf. Wizards need an additional magical substance to ‘control’ their powers, that’s why when using a different wand, it feels really different, because they were trained to direct their powers into something that will convert the energy they pass the charm to. (??) and elves are naturally more in control of the power they were born with.

Do goblins have powers? They don’t right? Don’t shoot me but I don’t like Goblins especially the one we most hate wobbles. Griphook.
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