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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

As far as I know, Fake Moody used the real Moody’s wand. That’s the only logical thing to do I think. Poor guy, locked in his own trunk for months!!

o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I love this thread... so many things can go into it!

 

My new question...

 

When a person enters a memory in a Pensieve, does his whole body go into it?  Or just his mind?

 

If his whole body goes into it, then how could Dumbledore (in GoF) or Snape (in OotP) tell when Harry was in the memory without permission?  Wouldn't they have just seen the basin?

 

Or, if just the mind was in there, and the body was just kind of petrified on the outside with perhaps just a nose sticking in the dish, then how did Dumbledore go in simultaneously with Harry in HBP?  I didn't imagine the basin as big enough for two heads.

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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Good question, psychee. I am going to make an attempt at an answer. I will say no, that the entire body does not go into the pensieve. I think of the pensieve as like a virtual reality helmet, if you will. Once you place your head near it or cross a threshhold of the basin, then you enter into a person's memory, but your body is still there in present day. Just a guess, though.
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

 

 Hello dear!

I remember in  COS, Harry reading riddle's diary, a box , which was where the ‘date' for a particular entry was supposed to be, suddenly got enlarge that when Harry put his head towards it, it suddenly gives him a view as if his looking into a chamber, from a window above it. I always thought the whole body goes into the Pensieve. The reason DD and Snape knew HP entered it are because the scenes always indicated they ‘knew Harry  was there.'

In GOF Harry was wandering around DD's office (DD left Harry and discussed matters with Fudge and fake Moody) and Harry saw the cabinet door ajar. So I would assume DD saw the cabinet door, when he arrived, completely open, and therefore he knew Harry got sucked in it.

 

In HBP, Snape also knew Harry was left in his office at the time, although I wouldn't think Snape knew Harry knows about Pensieves, otherwise, I think would've hidden the thing before he fled and left Harry alone (why did Snape leave again? This was during Occlymency) .

 

I think the Pensieve is not such a good idea of storing thoughts. It is helpful but what if it got into the wrong hands?

o’~aNd I'm So Sad, LikE a GoOd BooK, I caN't PuT tHis Day BacK~’o
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hihi
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway


mrsronaldweasley wrote:
 

 In HBP, Snape also knew Harry was left in his office at the time, although I wouldn't think Snape knew Harry knows about Pensieves, otherwise, I think would've hidden the thing before he fled and left Harry alone (why did Snape leave again? This was during Occlymency) .


 

    Snape left because they ahd found Marcus Flint in the toilet after Fred and George had pushed him in a Vanishing cabinet.

 

What I had thought, was that your entire body falls in, and the memory starts to play like a video, and while one person is in the Pensieve, another can come and get a birds-eye view of the scene.

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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

This is too funny:smileyvery-happy:  I love the image of the petrified body with its nose on the edge of the pensieve!

 

My guess is that only the mind enters the pensieve, and the body is left behind (still makes me laugh!)   The body may not be petrified, though, it may just be kind of dreamy and limp.  Dumbledore would just have to gently shove Harry's body aside and enter the pensieve himself. This would explain how someone could tell the pensieve was in use.

 

An argument for the other side, however, would be that the whole body enters the pensieve, but that someone could tell it was in use because the images being seen in the pensieve might be visible on the surface of the silvery stuff.  I think (although am not positive) that when Harry was first intrigued by the pensieve, and got close, he was attracted by the swirling stuff, but the closer he got, he could see the image of the courtroom.  This still doesn't quite feel right, however, because Dumbledore would have had to have looked in the pensieve to see it was in use.  Of course, Dumbledore was expecting to find Harry in his office, and if he didn't see him, in body, he might have thought to check out the pensieve.  The same would be true of Snape-he was expecting to find Harry in his office, and would undoubtedly have checked the pensieve if Harry was missing.

 

I guess it could go either way.  It does raise a couple of other questions, however.

 

In OOTP, Dumbledore pokes the stuff in the pensieve with his wand and the image of Trelawney rises out of the pensieve and repeats the prophecy.  Somewhere else, Dumbledore pokes it and the image of Bertha Jorkin rises out of the pensieve.  If the memories can be made to rise out of the pensieve, why bother going completely into it at all.  Maybe this is only possible with single images, like Trelawney and Bertha, and not complete scenes such as the ones Harry saw? 

 

Do the memories in the pensieve swirl around at random, or are the ones in play the ones most recently "viewed"?  If the later is the case, why was Dumbledore thinking of, or "viewing" the courtroom scene?  If the thoughts are swirling at random, Harry could have entered any of Dumbledore's many stashed memories-for example, Harry could have scene the prophecy in GOF rather than later in OOTP. 

 

I still wonder how Harry figured out how to get out of the pensieve.  When Harry enters the courtroom memory, and Snape's memories, he is brought out by the others.  Yet in DH when Harry looks at Snape's final memories, he manages to get out on his own-how did he do that?  Harry was alone in the office, and there was nobody to pull him out.  How does the pulling out happen anyway?  In the case of the courtroom, Dumbledore went in and took Harry's arm.  In the case of Snape's memories, I think Snape just yanked at Harry's left behind body-I don't think we saw adult Snape in the scene with young Snape. Strange.

 

 

 


Psychee wrote:

I love this thread... so many things can go into it!

 

My new question...

 

When a person enters a memory in a Pensieve, does his whole body go into it?  Or just his mind?

 

If his whole body goes into it, then how could Dumbledore (in GoF) or Snape (in OotP) tell when Harry was in the memory without permission?  Wouldn't they have just seen the basin?

 

Or, if just the mind was in there, and the body was just kind of petrified on the outside with perhaps just a nose sticking in the dish, then how did Dumbledore go in simultaneously with Harry in HBP?  I didn't imagine the basin as big enough for two heads.


 

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PEGSmom
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway


Kreacherteacher wrote:
Good question, psychee. I am going to make an attempt at an answer. I will say no, that the entire body does not go into the pensieve. I think of the pensieve as like a virtual reality helmet, if you will. Once you place your head near it or cross a threshhold of the basin, then you enter into a person's memory, but your body is still there in present day. Just a guess, though.
Was Dumbledore the only person we know of that had a pensieve?  If so, how come not everyone had them? (I could sure use one)
~ PEGSmom~
"It's our choices that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities" Albus Dumbledore
"Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow"
Mark Twain
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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Not everyone had them because it is very difficult to build up the points needed to buy it from Borgin and Burkes. Most wizards are very impulsive and kept using their points on other trinkets. Sorry, silly humor there. I don't even know if Borgin and Burkes sold them, or where they can be purchased.

 

I am sure some other wizards had them, but again, Dumbledore having it simply proved to be a great plot device to keep the story moving and a clever way for us to see backstory perspectives from characters. We don't need this from all characters so we don't get to see other wizards using them, but I think we can assume others had access to pensieves.

 

And some have asked or talked about Harry having access to the pensieve. I don't think this was an oversight of DD's. I think DD actually wanted Harry to discover it or DD simply didn't have anything to hide from Harry so he simply left it there for the use. There is nothing inherently dangerous in Harry's discovery of the pensieve and its contents so why hide it. The pensieve was also mainly used to help Harry anyway.

 

And it is funny to think of someone hovering over a basin for the time that they are in a memory. And the way you word it Molly sounds even funnier as it sounds like how we call up songs or podcasts on an Ipod.


PEGSmom wrote:

 

Was Dumbledore the only person we know of that had a pensieve?  If so, how come not everyone had them? (I could sure use one)


 

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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

LOL. My apologies for the overuse of the word "simply". I was rereading to see if it made sense and I apparently love that word.
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I didn't know Borgin & Burkes gave green stamps!  Do they still make green stamps, or is this an older than dirt thing?

 

I assumed that pensieves were quite rare-the runes around the rim suggested to me that they were perhaps ancient things and there weren't too many in existence.  I wonder if the magic is in the basin, or whether you could create a pensieve out of an old tupperware bowl using magic.

 

Although I agree it is a useful device to advance the plot without a lot of dialogue, I disagree about the advisability of leaving the pensieve around where anybody could find it and use it.  Dumbledore had the memory of the full prophecy stashed in the pensieve, and although I don't know whether there are things like "parental locks" on the contents of the pensieve, couldn't Harry have as easily stumbled into the prophecy memory as the courtroom memory?   We don't really know all the thoughts Dumbledore had stashed away in there at any given time (since thoughts could be removed) but I don't think Dumbledore had time in GOF to remove any potentially danagerous material he didn't want Harry to see before the time was right.  If I recall, Harry's visit to Dumbledore's office was impromptu, and then Dumbledore went off to the forest with the others.  Dumbledore could have stuff about Grindelwald and Ariana stashed in there, and it isn't likely he would have wanted Harry to find out about that stuff at that time.  Snape certainly found out to his chagrin that leaving an unattended pensieve wasn't wise when Harry was around.

 

I had the image, not of a podcast, but of someone with their tongue stuck to a cold metal railing or flagpole:smileyvery-happy:


Kreacherteacher wrote:

Not everyone had them because it is very difficult to build up the points needed to buy it from Borgin and Burkes. Most wizards are very impulsive and kept using their points on other trinkets. Sorry, silly humor there. I don't even know if Borgin and Burkes sold them, or where they can be purchased.

 

I am sure some other wizards had them, but again, Dumbledore having it simply proved to be a great plot device to keep the story moving and a clever way for us to see backstory perspectives from characters. We don't need this from all characters so we don't get to see other wizards using them, but I think we can assume others had access to pensieves.

 

And some have asked or talked about Harry having access to the pensieve. I don't think this was an oversight of DD's. I think DD actually wanted Harry to discover it or DD simply didn't have anything to hide from Harry so he simply left it there for the use. There is nothing inherently dangerous in Harry's discovery of the pensieve and its contents so why hide it. The pensieve was also mainly used to help Harry anyway.

 

And it is funny to think of someone hovering over a basin for the time that they are in a memory. And the way you word it Molly sounds even funnier as it sounds like how we call up songs or podcasts on an Ipod.


PEGSmom wrote:

 

Was Dumbledore the only person we know of that had a pensieve?  If so, how come not everyone had them? (I could sure use one)


 


 

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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Mollywobbles, I don't think Dumbledore kept all his memories in it on a regular basis...  in GoF, I thought he only had memories in it related to Crouch in Ministry hearings.  I thought he just pulled them out of his head for review before Fudge showed up but got interrupted before he could put them back in his own brain.

 

All of this is to say that I don't believe there was a risk of Harry finding out about the prophesy at that point.... that memory should have still been in Dumbledore's head, right?

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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Oh, great point about the runes, Molly. You're probably right. And I always thought Dumbledore as controlled-yet uncontrolled at the same time. I imagine he had complete control over the memories in the basin, therefore, he did not attempt to control Harry's use of it.
Mollywobbles wrote:

I didn't know Borgin & Burkes gave green stamps!  Do they still make green stamps, or is this an older than dirt thing?

 

I assumed that pensieves were quite rare-the runes around the rim suggested to me that they were perhaps ancient things and there weren't too many in existence.  I wonder if the magic is in the basin, or whether you could create a pensieve out of an old tupperware bowl using magic.

 

Although I agree it is a useful device to advance the plot without a lot of dialogue, I disagree about the advisability of leaving the pensieve around where anybody could find it and use it.  Dumbledore had the memory of the full prophecy stashed in the pensieve, and although I don't know whether there are things like "parental locks" on the contents of the pensieve, couldn't Harry have as easily stumbled into the prophecy memory as the courtroom memory?   We don't really know all the thoughts Dumbledore had stashed away in there at any given time (since thoughts could be removed) but I don't think Dumbledore had time in GOF to remove any potentially danagerous material he didn't want Harry to see before the time was right.  If I recall, Harry's visit to Dumbledore's office was impromptu, and then Dumbledore went off to the forest with the others.  Dumbledore could have stuff about Grindelwald and Ariana stashed in there, and it isn't likely he would have wanted Harry to find out about that stuff at that time.  Snape certainly found out to his chagrin that leaving an unattended pensieve wasn't wise when Harry was around.

 

I had the image, not of a podcast, but of someone with their tongue stuck to a cold metal railing or flagpole:smileyvery-happy:


Kreacherteacher wrote:

Not everyone had them because it is very difficult to build up the points needed to buy it from Borgin and Burkes. Most wizards are very impulsive and kept using their points on other trinkets. Sorry, silly humor there. I don't even know if Borgin and Burkes sold them, or where they can be purchased.

 

I am sure some other wizards had them, but again, Dumbledore having it simply proved to be a great plot device to keep the story moving and a clever way for us to see backstory perspectives from characters. We don't need this from all characters so we don't get to see other wizards using them, but I think we can assume others had access to pensieves.

 

And some have asked or talked about Harry having access to the pensieve. I don't think this was an oversight of DD's. I think DD actually wanted Harry to discover it or DD simply didn't have anything to hide from Harry so he simply left it there for the use. There is nothing inherently dangerous in Harry's discovery of the pensieve and its contents so why hide it. The pensieve was also mainly used to help Harry anyway.

 

And it is funny to think of someone hovering over a basin for the time that they are in a memory. And the way you word it Molly sounds even funnier as it sounds like how we call up songs or podcasts on an Ipod.


PEGSmom wrote:

 

Was Dumbledore the only person we know of that had a pensieve?  If so, how come not everyone had them? (I could sure use one)


 


 


 

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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I don't know, Psychee, that sounds pretty awkward.  Why would Dumbledore have pulled the courtroom memory out of his head at that particular time to review? Barty Crouch Sr. had been reportedly found by Harry and Krum, then Krum had been attacked and Barty Sr. disappeared.  Why would Dumbledore have needed to review the courtroom scene then?

 

I always thought of the pensieve as a storage place where excess thoughts, or things you didn't want to think about actively, were stashed.  They could be brought back and reviewed in the pensieve, or returned to the brain as needed.  I figured Dumbledore stashed most of his old memories in there, including the one about the prophecy, and only reviewed them, or reinstalled them in his head as he needed them.  Or, as we have talked about before, they were duplicates.  Just to have one or two memories sloshing about in the pensieve seems a bit of a waste.  I think Dumbledore, in his very long life, probably kept a lot of stuff in the pensieve, rather than having it using up space in his mind. While Dumbledore may not have kept sensitive stuff, like the prophecy, in the pensieve, it seems unlikely to me that the memory of the courtroom scene was the only thing in the pensieve at the time Harry used it.


Psychee wrote:

Mollywobbles, I don't think Dumbledore kept all his memories in it on a regular basis...  in GoF, I thought he only had memories in it related to Crouch in Ministry hearings.  I thought he just pulled them out of his head for review before Fudge showed up but got interrupted before he could put them back in his own brain.

 

All of this is to say that I don't believe there was a risk of Harry finding out about the prophesy at that point.... that memory should have still been in Dumbledore's head, right?


 

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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

That must have kept Dumbledore pretty busy, figuring out what thoughts to keep in the pensieve, and what he should keep in his own head. If I understand you correctly, you think Dumbledore wanted Harry to have access to certain thoughts via the pensieve and yet when Harry comes to Dumbledore's office, it was an unexpected visit-Harry had had a vision of Nagini in Divination class and wanted to tell Dumbledore, but it took him several tries to get past the gargoyle.  How could Dumbledore have known Harry would be coming to see him, and therefore put that particular thought in the pensieve at that particular time?
Kreacherteacher wrote:
Oh, great point about the runes, Molly. You're probably right. And I always thought Dumbledore as controlled-yet uncontrolled at the same time. I imagine he had complete control over the memories in the basin, therefore, he did not attempt to control Harry's use of it.
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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

I'm thinking that DD is a wizard who is able to control things better than we can. Perhaps he could charm it so that certain memories weren't visible to anyone who happened upon it. I don't know the extent of his power, but I do imagine he was quite busy. 

 

He figured Harry would eventually need to see the memories which is the reason he has the pensieve, I guess. With everything else he could do, it seems possible that he could charm his memories from being seen.

 

 

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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Harry had told Dumbledore what Barty Sr. had said to him in his frenzy.  That included vague references to his son and wife and that he had done something stupid.  I thought that Dumbledore pulled out the courtroom memories to review Barty Sr.'s handling of the Barty Jr. situation to see if there were any clues there as to what Barty Sr. had been talking about.

 


Mollywobbles wrote:

I don't know, Psychee, that sounds pretty awkward.  Why would Dumbledore have pulled the courtroom memory out of his head at that particular time to review? Barty Crouch Sr. had been reportedly found by Harry and Krum, then Krum had been attacked and Barty Sr. disappeared.  Why would Dumbledore have needed to review the courtroom scene then?

 


 

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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Okay, the references were pretty vague and disconnected, but I suppose that could have prompted Dumbledore to look at the courtroom scene.  That would make it logical that it would be the scene Harry saw when checking out the pensieve-it was the most recent. 

 

 


Psychee wrote:

Harry had told Dumbledore what Barty Sr. had said to him in his frenzy.  That included vague references to his son and wife and that he had done something stupid.  I thought that Dumbledore pulled out the courtroom memories to review Barty Sr.'s handling of the Barty Jr. situation to see if there were any clues there as to what Barty Sr. had been talking about.

 


Mollywobbles wrote:

I don't know, Psychee, that sounds pretty awkward.  Why would Dumbledore have pulled the courtroom memory out of his head at that particular time to review? Barty Crouch Sr. had been reportedly found by Harry and Krum, then Krum had been attacked and Barty Sr. disappeared.  Why would Dumbledore have needed to review the courtroom scene then?

 


 


 

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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

When the real Moody was locked in his trunk all those months, fake Moody/Crouch must have fed him, or he would have died. Was he also drugged to keep him in a semi-comatose condition?  He must have been, because a wizard of Moody's skill, even without a wand, might have been able to do some magic to get himself out of the trunk, or at least let somebody know he was in there.  Poor guy. 

 

I guess polyjuice potion requires hair (or toenails) of living people to work, otherwise, why not let real Moody die and just keep a bunch of his hair?

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Mollywobbles
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

How was Aberforth able to summon Dobby and send him to the Malfoy manor to rescue the prisoners?  As far as I remember, Dobby was still at Hogwarts and owed his loyalty to the school.  How did Aberforth manage to get him to the HogsHead and explain about the need to rescue Harry? 
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Psychee
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Re: Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

Actually, I don't think Moody had to be alive for the polyjuice potion to work, or else Voldemort would not have told Barty Jr to kill him.  Barty Jr. decided to keep him alive, though, so that he could answer questions that might come up during the year about things that only Moody would know.  I guess he was afraid that Dumbledore would see through him without those extra precautions.

 

I'm also guessing that he used a lot of Veritaserum on him to get him to answer those questions. 


Mollywobbles wrote:

When the real Moody was locked in his trunk all those months, fake Moody/Crouch must have fed him, or he would have died. Was he also drugged to keep him in a semi-comatose condition?  He must have been, because a wizard of Moody's skill, even without a wand, might have been able to do some magic to get himself out of the trunk, or at least let somebody know he was in there.  Poor guy. 

 

I guess polyjuice potion requires hair (or toenails) of living people to work, otherwise, why not let real Moody die and just keep a bunch of his hair?