Tiny questions that don't matter but I'm asking anyway

[Psychee]

I think "Tri-Wizard" means three wizards, and that there had never been more than three schools competing in the tournament.   The fact that the cup accepted a fourth school just indicates how powerful the spell was, I think...  it was so powerful that it changed the very nature of the cup. That makes me think Voldemort  devised that spell and Barty Jr. just cast it;  Barty Jr was good, but I don't think he was THAT good.

[Mollywobbles]

Right again,Psychee, I just double-checked (not that I doubted you for a moment!) and it was indeed just the three school that historically competed.  That does make it a very powerful charm cast on the goblet, to overcome some 700 years of history.   

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Psychee wrote:
I think "Tri-Wizard" means three wizards, and that there had never been more than three schools competing in the tournament.   The fact that the cup accepted a fourth school just indicates how powerful the spell was, I think...  it was so powerful that it changed the very nature of the cup. That makes me think Voldemort  devised that spell and Barty Jr. just cast it;  Barty Jr was good, but I don't think he was THAT good.

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[Mollywobbles]

Perhaps this is just the banker in me, but I've been wondering about things financial in the wizarding world.

First, how did the Ministry of Magic support it's operations-did wizards pay taxes?  Even if the MOM could magic their premises and supplies, it had a very large staff who all needed to be paid.  We never hear about anything as mundane as a mint, or department of finance in the MOM, was it able to magic money into existence?  This sounds like it might be a logical exception to Gamps law, otherwise every wizard would just magic money into existence and the Weasley's wouldn't have any financial worries.  The MOM can't have relied on voluntary contributions, otherwise weathly families like the Blacks and the Malfoys would have the government completely in their pockets.  There must have been some form of wizarding tax, don't you think?

Secondly, the wizarding world relied on specie-actual metal coins made of gold, silver and bronze (we never saw a wizard using plastic or writing a cheque!)  Where did they get the metal?  Wizards shared the natural world with muggles-were there wizard mines? They would have had to do major muggle-concealing magic to keep the existence of the mines secret.  Also, how did they replace the coinage taken out of circulation?  Since money was kept in the vaults at gringotts, there was lots of coinage taken out of circulation which would need to be replaced to keep the economy going (Harry's inheritance was out of circulation for 11 years).  Did gringott's also act as a mint as well as a bank?  Probably more, but I have to cut this short.

Message Edited by Mollywobbles on 08-25-2008 08:41 AM

[Psychee]

Wow!  Those are milllion dollar questions, Mollywobbles!   And I haven't got a clue!  What are your guesses? 

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Mollywobbles wrote:

Perhaps this is just the banker in me, but I've been wondering about things financial in the wizarding world.

First, how did the Ministry of Magic support it's operations-did wizards pay taxes?  Even if the MOM could magic their premises and supplies, it had a very large staff who all needed to be paid.  We never hear about anything as mundane as a mint, or department of finance in the MOM, was it able to magic money into existence?  This sounds like it might be a logical exception to Gamps law, otherwise every wizard would just magic money into existence and the Weasley's wouldn't have any financial worries.  The MOM can't have relied on voluntary contributions, otherwise weathly families like the Blacks and the Malfoys would have the government completely in their pockets.  There must have been some form of wizarding tax, don't you think?

Secondly, the wizarding world relied on specie-actual metal coins made of gold, silver and bronze (we never saw a wizard using plastic or writing a cheque!)  Where did they get the metal?  Wizards shared the natural world with muggles-were there wizard mines? They would have had to do major muggle-concealing magic to keep the existence of the mines secret.  Also, how did they replace the coinage taken out of circulation?  Since money was kept in the vaults at gringotts, there was lots of coinage taken out of circulation which would need to be replaced to keep the economy going (Harry's inheritance was out of circulation for 11 years).  Did gringott's also act as a mint as well as a bank?  Probably more, but I have to cut this short.

Message Edited by Mollywobbles on 08-25-2008 08:41 AM

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[Mollywobbles]

My guesses are that there was an income tax on wizard earnings, and/or wealth.  We know that wealthy families contributed to various projects (Sirius says this is how his father earned his order of Merlin, and Fudge says Lucius is a heavy contributor), but the Ministry couldn't have relied on voluntary contributions alone-those could be withheld if wizards didn't like policies established by the Ministry and then operations would come to a halt.  As I don't think money could be magicked, otherwise Lupin and the Weasley family wouldn't be poor, the only other explanation I can think of is a tax of some sort.  I can't find any hint of this in the books, so it's just a WAG (wild-assed guess)

I am further WAGGING that somewhere in the MOM there is a Treasury department which monitors the currency situation.  It's not a very glamorous job, so that's why we don't hear about it.  My theory about how they come up with the actual ores to make the coins is a little nasty.  I figure when they need gold, silver, or bronze, they locate deposits magically, and magic it out of the ground and into gringotts where the goblins make the coins.  Goblin magic makes the coins durable so they don't degrade over time-the same way the swords last for ages. 

Since the ore is removed magically, the Treasury people then fill in the mined areas with ordinary dirt or rock.  If muggles go prospecting, they find no traces of the ores which have been removed, or they find "fool's gold".  This would explain why so many muggle prospecting ventures are unsuccessful-the ore is already gone.

Another source of metals would be the treaure hunting done by people like Bill Weasley employed by Gringotts.  Didn't Bill say something like they don't care how long my hair is as long as I find lots of treasure?  So Bill and his co-workers find things like lost burial sites and effectively loot them of their buried treasures. I imagine they loot magical and muggle treasure troves.  The magical treasure sites probably have enchantments on them, making them more difficult to locate, but muggle burial sites are probably pretty easy for wizards to find.  The poor muggles figure that graverobbers were there before them, when in fact, the burial sites were probably raided by wizards.  The treasures are probably then funneled into the Ministry where the ores are converted to galleons, sickles and knuts, and the gems and other goodies are sold at auction and the money raised helps fund ministry operations.  In the first book, Harry notices the goblins in gringotts weighing precious stones, and since we don't see gems being used as currency anywhere, I'm WAGGING that the goblins are weighing them up, getting ready to have them auctioned off to raise cash for the Ministry.

Will that do?

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Psychee wrote:

Wow!  Those are milllion dollar questions, Mollywobbles!   And I haven't got a clue!  What are your guesses? 

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[Psychee]

That's pretty comprehensive!   But why would the goblins hand over the gold they found to the Ministry?  I was under the impression that they find gold and treasure for themselves.  Might the Ministry have their own treasure seekers?  Maybe using nifflers? 

[Mollywobbles]

I figured the Ministry out-sourced treasure hunting to Gringotts, for a fee or a percentage of the booty.  Treasure hunting, and grave robbing, would be a little distasteful, so the Ministry decided to let Gringotts, and the goblins do the dirty work. Nifflers would be very helpful little critters though, but Bill would have to take off his earring, or the nifflers would go after it too!

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Psychee wrote:
That's pretty comprehensive!   But why would the goblins hand over the gold they found to the Ministry?  I was under the impression that they find gold and treasure for themselves.  Might the Ministry have their own treasure seekers?  Maybe using nifflers? 

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[Psychee]

Do you think wizards ever apparate into Muggle gold reserve banks and take whatever they want?

[Mollywobbles]

Lol, I think even muggles might notice if someone "disappeared" the reserves in the old lady of Threadneedle Street, or Fort Knox.

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Psychee wrote:
Do you think wizards ever apparate into Muggle gold reserve banks and take whatever they want?

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[Mollywobbles]

Goblins seem to have a different relationship with wizards than any of the other beings we find in the books.  There's a Goblin Liason office in the MOM, but no Centaur Liason Office, for example.  Is this just because the Centaurs prefer to keep to themselves and have as little to do with outsiders as possible?  I wonder how the unique relationship with goblins came into being, and what did the people in the Goblin Liason Office do? 

[Psychee]

I think they may have had a Liaison Office as a result of the facts that:

1.  They once staged a successful rebellion and have no liking of Wizard-kind..  That, in turn, requires careful diplomacy.

2.  Their idea of morality and fair play is quite different from Wizards.  Making deals with them in turn requires special training.

3.  They speak their own language.

4.  The wizards' whole economy depends on them!

5.  I had the impression that there were a whole lot more goblins than Centaurs....

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Mollywobbles wrote:

Goblins seem to have a different relationship with wizards than any of the other beings we find in the books.  There's a Goblin Liason office in the MOM, but no Centaur Liason Office, for example.  Is this just because the Centaurs prefer to keep to themselves and have as little to do with outsiders as possible?  I wonder how the unique relationship with goblins came into being, and what did the people in the Goblin Liason Office do? 

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[Mollywobbles]

I had forgotten about the Goblin rebellions-good reason to have a Liason Office!  Remind me, do we ever actually see a goblin performing magic?  I can't recall Griphook actually making anything disappear, or something similar.  Perhaps their magic is invested in the articles they manufacture.

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Psychee wrote:

I think they may have had a Liaison Office as a result of the facts that:

1.  They once staged a successful rebellion and have no liking of Wizard-kind..  That, in turn, requires careful diplomacy.

2.  Their idea of morality and fair play is quite different from Wizards.  Making deals with them in turn requires special training.

3.  They speak their own language.

4.  The wizards' whole economy depends on them!

5.  I had the impression that there were a whole lot more goblins than Centaurs....

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Mollywobbles wrote:

Goblins seem to have a different relationship with wizards than any of the other beings we find in the books.  There's a Goblin Liason office in the MOM, but no Centaur Liason Office, for example.  Is this just because the Centaurs prefer to keep to themselves and have as little to do with outsiders as possible?  I wonder how the unique relationship with goblins came into being, and what did the people in the Goblin Liason Office do? 

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[Psychee]

They did create Gringotts spells -- like the one that traps someone in a vault if anyone but a goblin opens the door and the magical waterfall that washes off any enchantments...  do they count?

[Mollywobbles]

Yes, they count, it's just that we didn't see a goblin perform those spells.  There seems to be something ironic about the fact that we see house-elves perform magic, but not goblins, yet goblins have a much higher status than house-elves.  Rather unfair.

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Psychee wrote:

They did create Gringotts spells -- like the one that traps someone in a vault if anyone but a goblin opens the door and the magical waterfall that washes off any enchantments...  do they count?

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[Psychee]

Sometimes I think the goblins are a metaphor for China... they stand apart and play by their own set of rules, taking advantage of every opportunity to profit.  Our economies are inextricably tied to them, in spite of the disadvantages of that.  Every country has specially trained liaisons for dealing with them.  Yet, as long as they don't start physical wars, they are not regarded as an outright enemy.

Voldemort and his cronies are different -- they make nothing of value and only seek to create chaos and undermine every other power so that they can control the world.  They are more like terrorists from the Middle East.

The House Elves could be a metaphor for all us caretaker folks who just try to create comfortable lives for our loved ones, expecting no power payment in return.  We do things -- rather wonderful things -- as acts of love, a reward in itself.  We could have power if we ever banded together to wield it, but that would take energy away from our families, so we don't try to exercise it.  To the larger world, we are invisible.

The Ministry is a metaphor for every governmental bureaucracy.  Some stuff they do just keeps life running smoothly.  But by and large, governments make decisions just to look good in the media so that the individual politicians can keep their jobs and stay in power and maintain status quo. 

I doubt that JKR wrote with these ideas in mind, but they seem to fit the patterns, don't they?

[ciproano]

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Psychee wrote:

Sometimes I think the goblins are a metaphor for China... .....etc.

Psychee, that is very perceptive.  I agree that these classes of magical being are metaphoric.  Given that JKR is by education and training a Classicist, perhaps she was thinking more broadly, more historically.  There have always been peoples who "stand apart and play by their own set of rules" like the Goblins/China.  Perhaps the Spartans of ancient Greece would be an example, as they were quite unlike other city-states of their time.  Likewise, there have throughout history been the evil-empire types and the caretaker types.

The beauty of this metaphor is that it works on the grand scale, as you mention, and also at the micro level, person to person.  Even for the ghosts and ghosties:  the Grey Lady who stands (floats?) apart, Peeves who thrives on chaos, the Fat Friar who is such a caretaker.  I'm not sure about the bureaucrat, perhaps Prof. Binns, who just keeps on keeping on,following the rules, not even death can part him from those rules.

Thanks for some thought-provoking ideas!

Puffy Griffinclaw

[Psychee]

Cool!  Would Filch represent any zealot (religious or otherwise) who needs to control the behavior of every one around him with rigid rules, so serious in his mission that he is incapable of understanding or experiencing fun?

I absolutely love the juxtaposition of Filch and Peeves in the books!   

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ciproano wrote:

...The beauty of this metaphor is that it works on the grand scale, as you mention, and also at the micro level, person to person.  Even for the ghosts and ghosties:  the Grey Lady who stands (floats?) apart, Peeves who thrives on chaos, the Fat Friar who is such a caretaker.  I'm not sure about the bureaucrat, perhaps Prof. Binns, who just keeps on keeping on,following the rules, not even death can part him from those rules.

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[Mollywobbles]

Who would have thought a little mention of goblins would provoke such interesting discussions?

Filch was a squib, but so was Mrs. Figg. While Filch attempted to control, Mrs. Figg was the essence of disorganization.  If Filch could represent a zealot, what does that make Mrs. Figg?

I prefer to think of an association with the centaurs, rather than the house-elves.  The centaurs stood apart, by inclination and preference, but showed up when needed.  They might be regarded by many as "ruddy stargazers", but were fierce warriors when the occasion arose.  The centaurs weren't interested in close association with wizard kind, but the house-elves lived to serve wizard kind.  Perhaps the centaurs could represent those individuals or countries with similar characteristics.

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Psychee wrote:

Cool!  Would Filch represent any zealot (religious or otherwise) who needs to control the behavior of every one around him with rigid rules, so serious in his mission that he is incapable of understanding or experiencing fun?

I absolutely love the juxtaposition of Filch and Peeves in the books!   

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ciproano wrote:

...The beauty of this metaphor is that it works on the grand scale, as you mention, and also at the micro level, person to person.  Even for the ghosts and ghosties:  the Grey Lady who stands (floats?) apart, Peeves who thrives on chaos, the Fat Friar who is such a caretaker.  I'm not sure about the bureaucrat, perhaps Prof. Binns, who just keeps on keeping on,following the rules, not even death can part him from those rules.

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[Psychee]

Would the opposite of a zealot be a Hippie?  Was Mrs. Figg all that disorganized, though?  She might have looked like a bag lady, but she was right fussed at Mundungus when he failed in his mission to protect Harry.  I think by nature she was a rule follower -- but she was kind of caught between two worlds, needing to live as a Muggle but having associations with Wizardkind.  If her parents had been magical, she also had to learn all that Muggle stuff on her own.  She just didn't fit in anywhere.

In some ways, the centaurs remind me of the Amish --  they live apart, try to avoid the influence of the outside world, are pacifists when called to war, expend no energy trying to make the rest of the world conform to their ideology, but feel violated when one of their number leaves the fold.

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Mollywobbles wrote:

Who would have thought a little mention of goblins would provoke such interesting discussions?

Filch was a squib, but so was Mrs.. Figg. While Filch attempted to control, Mrs.. Figg was the essence of disorganization.  If Filch could represent a zealot, what does that make Mrs.. Figg?

I prefer to think of an association with the centaurs, rather than the house-elves.  The centaurs stood apart, by inclination and preference, but showed up when needed.  They might be regarded by many as "ruddy stargazers", but were fierce warriors when the occasion arose.  The centaurs weren't interested in close association with wizard kind, but the house-elves lived to serve wizard kind.  Perhaps the centaurs could represent those individuals or countries with similar characteristics.

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[Mollywobbles]

Didn't Mrs. Figg turn up at Harry's hearing in her slippers?  Perhaps that's being a hippie-wear what is comfortable-but it didn't do much for Harry's confidence.  Perhaps, then, a hippie trying to look "normal" in a conformist world?

 (Off topic.  I used to be a hippie, a guitar playing, placard waving hippie-long hair, which I ironed, with a regular iron, I might add-now it just refers to my hip size and the fact that elasticed waist bands are sooo much more comfortable) 

Perhaps Mrs. Figg was a rule follower.  I had a sneaking suspicion that she just didn't want to let Dumbledore down.  She must have wanted to be a part of the magical world in the same way Filch did, and any way she could participate would be great for her.

Somewhere in the books, someone said (Auntie Muriel?) that they used to put squib kids in the muggle world.  Was that a kindness?  Filch wanted to be a wizard, Mrs. Figg satisfied herself with an association with wizardkind-would they have been better off not knowing they had been born into wizarding families but been placed elsewhere ,because they would always be out of step with their playmates? 

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Psychee wrote:

Would the opposite of a zealot be a Hippie?  Was Mrs. Figg all that disorganized, though?  She might have looked like a bag lady, but she was right fussed at Mundungus when he failed in his mission to protect Harry.  I think by nature she was a rule follower -- but she was kind of caught between two worlds, needing to live as a Muggle but having associations with Wizardkind.  If her parents had been magical, she also had to learn all that Muggle stuff on her own.  She just didn't fit in anywhere.

In some ways, the centaurs remind me of the Amish --  they live apart, try to avoid the influence of the outside world, are pacifists when called to war, expend no energy trying to make the rest of the world conform to their ideology, but feel violated when one of their number leaves the fold.

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Mollywobbles wrote:

Who would have thought a little mention of goblins would provoke such interesting discussions?

Filch was a squib, but so was Mrs.. Figg. While Filch attempted to control, Mrs.. Figg was the essence of disorganization.  If Filch could represent a zealot, what does that make Mrs.. Figg?

I prefer to think of an association with the centaurs, rather than the house-elves.  The centaurs stood apart, by inclination and preference, but showed up when needed.  They might be regarded by many as "ruddy stargazers", but were fierce warriors when the occasion arose.  The centaurs weren't interested in close association with wizard kind, but the house-elves lived to serve wizard kind.  Perhaps the centaurs could represent those individuals or countries with similar characteristics.

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