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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand


Par4course wrote:
Agreed, Psyche - plus, much as I love Sirius, I don't remember any mention of his being a GREAT wizard - and we constantly have mention Hermione being one of the great witcches of her time.  It was her intelligence and plans that kept the teenagers safe for so long.   How did Voldy's forces know where the house was ?  Did Snape probably tell them, or did the spell to hide it disappear when Dumbledore died? (because, as I recall, it was only the invisibility cloak that got them into the house unseen - which, of course, Sirius didn't have).

In OotP, JKR wrote that James and Sirius were top students in their year, so there's no doubt Sirius was an accomplished wizard (btw, I think "great" is a word for wizards as Dumbledore, not for Hermione, though she's very clever). Sirius's somewhat reckless character could be an excuse for his confinement, but I still feel it's most unfair and unreasonable.

 

When Sirius died, his will had been examined by the Ministry, and as there were Voldy's spies in it, It's not surprising that its location was no longer a secret. In DH, Lupin went to see Harry, without  being detected by Deatheaters, and he definitely didn't have an invisibility cloak.

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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Par4course, your comments remind me of something about secret keeper issue. When Dumbledore died, the people to whom he had given the address of OotP's headquater in person became secret keepers in turn. Snape was one of them. Moody's spell wouldn't prevent him giving the location, so I really can't come up with an excuse that he could use to fool Voldy.
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Psychee
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Didn't JKR tie that up through Moody's "Old Dusty" tongue-tying spell?  She showed how the spell worked and she showed us that Snape had been in the house to get hit with it.  The spell allegedly prevented Snape from revealing the location to anyone. 

 

Of course, she didn't prove that Moody's spell was already in the house when Snape got in there, but I think we were meant to believe it anyway.

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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand


Psychee wrote:

Didn't JKR tie that up through Moody's "Old Dusty" tongue-tying spell?  She showed how the spell worked and she showed us that Snape had been in the house to get hit with it.  The spell allegedly prevented Snape from revealing the location to anyone. 

 

Of course, she didn't prove that Moody's spell was already in the house when Snape got in there, but I think we were meant to believe it anyway.


Yes, that spell could prevent Snape from SPEAKING the address, but what if Voldy asked him to write it down, like Dumbledore gave it to Harry in OotP? I got the impression that the spell only worked on mouth, not mind.

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Psychee
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

I see your point.  I think we were still meant to believe, though, that he couldn't communicate it to anyone.  Either that, or else when Voldy asked him for the location again (if he ever did), Snape just told him that he was still incapable of telling him.  It would have been the truth, even if it wasn't the whole truth, right? 

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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Yes, I suppose we have to believe that, though grudgingly from my part. :smileyhappy:
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Stewies_Mom
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

I only have a response for question 1 - the secret keeper issue.  I have no ideas regarding question 2.  If memory serves, I believe that Hagrid spoke to Wormtail, because didn't he mention to someone that he saw him there (at the scene)?  If so, wouldn't it make sense that Wormtail might have told him what happened?  Everyone thought that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper, but actually we know it to have been Wormtail.  So, if Hagrid met up with Wormtail, wouldn't he have explained what happened?  Or - perhaps after a secret has been spilled, the Fidelis(sp?) charm is no longer in effect, as there is no longer any reason for protection?  It must have been a rare occasion to have an untrustworthy person acting as secret keeper, as it seemed to be such a scandalous idea to the partons of Madame Rosmerta's tavern that someone would break their secret keeper role to provide Voldemort the location.

 


matrim wrote:

2 questions have been confusing me for some time.

1. the secret keeper

Can someone become his own house's secret keeper? Bill Weasley was the secret keeper of his shell cottage, so as long as he staysed in the house no one could ever find him. But if he could do this, why couldn't James? He and Lily and Harry could safely hide in their house, leaving Voldy no hope of tracking them down. Of course by doing this there won't be any story we know, but isn't it a bug?

 

 

2. Harry's phoenix wand

In Deathly Hallows Harry's wand automatically performed extraordinary magic and cracked Voldy's borrowed wand, which saved Harry's life when he and Hagrid were flying to the Burrow. Later Dumbledore explained that Harry's wand had conquered Voldy's in their duel and therefore acquired some Voldy's magic. My question is, why did Harry's wand fail to act when he faced similar mortal danger in the Order of the Phoenix?

 

I wonder if someone can give me satisfactory answers, or anyone also shares my confusion. :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by matrim on 05-12-2009 02:51 AM
Message Edited by matrim on 05-12-2009 02:53 AM

 

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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

I think you are referring to the chat in which Hagrid and other teachers recollected the tragedy of Harry's family in PoA. No, it was not Wormtail whom Hagrid had met but Sirius, and that happened after he had rescued Harry from the ruin, which still doesn't make sense.

 

As for the Fidelius Charm, one could argue that once the people whom the Charm is supposed to protect died, it would cease to be effective. But it can't be applied to Harry's case, for he was still alive, and theoretically the Charm should still work.


Stewies_Mom wrote:

I only have a response for question 1 - the secret keeper issue.  I have no ideas regarding question 2.  If memory serves, I believe that Hagrid spoke to Wormtail, because didn't he mention to someone that he saw him there (at the scene)?  If so, wouldn't it make sense that Wormtail might have told him what happened?  Everyone thought that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper, but actually we know it to have been Wormtail.  So, if Hagrid met up with Wormtail, wouldn't he have explained what happened?  Or - perhaps after a secret has been spilled, the Fidelis(sp?) charm is no longer in effect, as there is no longer any reason for protection?  It must have been a rare occasion to have an untrustworthy person acting as secret keeper, as it seemed to be such a scandalous idea to the partons of Madame Rosmerta's tavern that someone would break their secret keeper role to provide Voldemort the location.

 

 

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Stewies_Mom
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Matrim,

 

Good point, however, I'm still willing to defend my position.  Harry was an infant, a non-adult wizard.  Perhaps this makes a difference?

 

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mrsRW
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

You remember the things that can destroy a Horcrux? A Horcrux, has powerful magic in it, and only magic more powerful can destroy a Horcrux. I also had that question about the secret keeper issue. Voldemort's killing curse was so strong it blasted the whole house apart. Even the Ministry was able to locate ,after Voldy murdered the Potters. I doubt Wormtail squealed the info to Hagrid. Because Wormtail would've fled right after he told Voldy the secret. It's impossible he got the time to tell Hagrid, because if he told Hagrid, then DD would be notified..

The death eaters in DH werent able to see  Grimmauld Place because Snape never told them the address. He told Voldy that the secret died with DD.Which is wierd because Snape may be 'tha' good an occlumence, Voldy would've known how the charm worked would he? Because even if he told DD he went back and Moody's alarm went off on him,  that would be a sticky subject for Snape. I'm sure he doesnt want Voldy prying for info on why he went back to that place.

 

now I have a question:

 

Moody was dead when the chapter : The 7 potters ended, right? Why is his spell still taking effect in Grimauld Place for the Dumby-ghost tongue tie alarm, when DD's freezing spell released Harry when DD died?  I don't think the magic Moody used for the alarm is as 'ancient' as the spells and charms the owner's of Grimauld Place cast in the house.. Moody's spell was more like a jinx to me... 

~*We'll do it all, everything, on our own. We don't need anything or anyone. I don't quite know how to say how I feel. Those three words are said too much. They're not enough. Let's waste time. I need your grace to remind me to find my own.*~
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Mollywobbles
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Hi MrsRW!

 

I think the reason that the Potter house was blasted apart was the fact that the curse ricochetted.  It bounced off baby Harry, nailed Voldemort and probably bounced off him and brought down the house.  Most people hit by the AK looked perfectly healthy (like Tom's parents) except they were dead.  Because baby Harry was protected by Lily's sacrifice, the AK kind of caromed around and ended up destroying the whole house.

 

As to the "Mad-Eye" old Dusty thing, I don't think Mad-Eye cast that, I think someone else did, following Mad-Eye's death.  The Order was still using Grimmauld Place as headquarters when Harry's flight from Privet Dr. was planned.  I think that once everything went so badly, including Mad-Eye's death, someone had to close up Grimmauld Place and put some lingering protections in place.  Question is, who would that be?  Dumbie was dead, Sirius was dead. It could have been McGonagall, or possibly Lupin-it kind of sounds like a Lupin thing.


mrsRW wrote:

You remember the things that can destroy a Horcrux? A Horcrux, has powerful magic in it, and only magic more powerful can destroy a Horcrux. I also had that question about the secret keeper issue. Voldemort's killing curse was so strong it blasted the whole house apart. Even the Ministry was able to locate ,after Voldy murdered the Potters. I doubt Wormtail squealed the info to Hagrid. Because Wormtail would've fled right after he told Voldy the secret. It's impossible he got the time to tell Hagrid, because if he told Hagrid, then DD would be notified..

The death eaters in DH werent able to see  Grimmauld Place because Snape never told them the address. He told Voldy that the secret died with DD.Which is wierd because Snape may be 'tha' good an occlumence, Voldy would've known how the charm worked would he? Because even if he told DD he went back and Moody's alarm went off on him,  that would be a sticky subject for Snape. I'm sure he doesnt want Voldy prying for info on why he went back to that place.

 

now I have a question:

 

Moody was dead when the chapter : The 7 potters ended, right? Why is his spell still taking effect in Grimauld Place for the Dumby-ghost tongue tie alarm, when DD's freezing spell released Harry when DD died?  I don't think the magic Moody used for the alarm is as 'ancient' as the spells and charms the owner's of Grimauld Place cast in the house.. Moody's spell was more like a jinx to me... 


 

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mrsRW
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

hey Molly! Yes that makes sense...

Can I just share, and for the benefit of those of you who are new here, that when I'm by myself, reflecting on my Potter Queries,  I know I KNOW  the answer..So I post them here, someone has an answer, and I tend to agree with that person.. Then I proceed to turning off the PC.. Then I end up, going... 'Hey... wait a minute...' a new questions pops up... ad --ANYWAY... 

 

yes what you said makes perfect sense. But I remember them saying it was Moody's charm that went off. Were they saying it was Moody's cuz it was Moody's idea, but it was  someone else who did it, in preparation of someone like snape coming back to the place , or they call it Moody's charm because Moody performed it? 

 

 And going back to Sirius... I think Azkaban made Sirius a less braver man. Survivor's guilt, satying in Az  for so long and everything... Yes I wont argue with anyone who'll say, DD underestimated him.. I disagree though with some calling Sirius, a 'loose cannon'. Sirius may be reckless, but he's not a child... They let people like Mundungus out, right? and Yes if DD wanted to, he let Sirius go. But I think without Sirius's bestfriend, Azkaban weakening him, his whole family gone, and everyone in the order insisting that he stays, he just went and obligedand did what he was asked to do. There can only be one leader after all. Poor Sirius. 

 

 

~*We'll do it all, everything, on our own. We don't need anything or anyone. I don't quite know how to say how I feel. Those three words are said too much. They're not enough. Let's waste time. I need your grace to remind me to find my own.*~
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Mollywobbles
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

I thought it was because it was the image of Mad-eye that appeared out of the dust.  Didn't Lupin say something like "it was not I who killed you?" I kind of figured it was some kind of exit spell that the Order put in place when they left Grimmauld Place.  Of course, with Moody being as VIGILANT as he was, he could have set up the protection just in case. 

 

 

I do think Sirius was reckless-dangerously and tragically so.  I think we saw that as a student, he was always pushing the envelope.  His years of wrongful imprisonment in Azkaban I'm sure didn't help, and who would want to be cooped up in a house he hated after all those years cooped up in Azkaban?  I almost think sometimes that Sirius had a bit of a death wish.  His youth and health were gone, he was precluded from taking an active part in the resistance, his best friend was dead, he felt somewhat responsible because of the secret-keeper thing, and he couldn't take an active role in helping Harry.  Perhaps Sirius courted death.


mrsRW wrote:

hey Molly! Yes that makes sense...

Can I just share, and for the benefit of those of you who are new here, that when I'm by myself, reflecting on my Potter Queries,  I know I KNOW  the answer..So I post them here, someone has an answer, and I tend to agree with that person.. Then I proceed to turning off the PC.. Then I end up, going... 'Hey... wait a minute...' a new questions pops up... ad --ANYWAY... 

 

yes what you said makes perfect sense. But I remember them saying it was Moody's charm that went off. Were they saying it was Moody's cuz it was Moody's idea, but it was  someone else who did it, in preparation of someone like snape coming back to the place , or they call it Moody's charm because Moody performed it? 

 

 And going back to Sirius... I think Azkaban made Sirius a less braver man. Survivor's guilt, satying in Az  for so long and everything... Yes I wont argue with anyone who'll say, DD underestimated him.. I disagree though with some calling Sirius, a 'loose cannon'. Sirius may be reckless, but he's not a child... They let people like Mundungus out, right? and Yes if DD wanted to, he let Sirius go. But I think without Sirius's bestfriend, Azkaban weakening him, his whole family gone, and everyone in the order insisting that he stays, he just went and obligedand did what he was asked to do. There can only be one leader after all. Poor Sirius. 

 

 


 

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Par4course
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Wait...Sirius was looking forward to Harry coming to live with him some day, wasn't he?  Yes, it would still be a year or two, but wasn't that the idea of cleaning up the place?    So I don't think he was 'courting death', just that he was going to protect Harry by going to MOM...of course, then he confused Harry with his father.
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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

[ Edited ]

Mollywobbles wrote:

Hi MrsRW!

 

As to the "Mad-Eye" old Dusty thing, I don't think Mad-Eye cast that, I think someone else did, following Mad-Eye's death.  The Order was still using Grimmauld Place as headquarters when Harry's flight from Privet Dr. was planned.  I think that once everything went so badly, including Mad-Eye's death, someone had to close up Grimmauld Place and put some lingering protections in place.  Question is, who would that be?  Dumbie was dead, Sirius was dead. It could have been McGonagall, or possibly Lupin-it kind of sounds like a Lupin thing.


mrsRW wrote:


now I have a question:

 

Moody was dead when the chapter : The 7 potters ended, right? Why is his spell still taking effect in Grimauld Place for the Dumby-ghost tongue tie alarm, when DD's freezing spell released Harry when DD died?  I don't think the magic Moody used for the alarm is as 'ancient' as the spells and charms the owner's of Grimauld Place cast in the house.. Moody's spell was more like a jinx to me... 


 


It must be Moody's work. Mr. Weasley explained to Harry why the Order had stopped using Grimmauld Place as headquarter in which he mentioned Moody had set up a couple of spells to keep Snape out and if he entered, to bind his tongue. The more direct evidence is when Harry went into the house to seek sanctuary, he, Ron and Hermione heard Moody's voice and experienced the Tongue Tight curse. It would make no sense if Moody hadn't cast the spell but his voice rang. I think Moody had cast the curse after Dumbledore's death as a precaution.  As to why it continued to work, we can only assume that it was similar to those spells protecting Hogwarts which had a lasting effect.

Message Edited by matrim on 06-03-2009 04:58 AM
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mrsRW
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

hey matrim wassup..

yes I knew it was Moody who cast the spell as well for the tongue tie curse. Mollywobbles and I were trying to figure out if Moody's spell lasted even after he died...Because of your min-boggling topic! LOL 

Actually Wobbles, it  was DD's image that the 'dusts form' however it was Moody's growling voice that emanated from the image, since he was the one who cast it.,I don't think there's a very accurate explanation of how Voldy can't gain access to Grimauld Place. JKR left a lot of gray areas that I think she left for us to speculate but the author never really provided answer for, example, the secret keeper business.. 

 

 

~*We'll do it all, everything, on our own. We don't need anything or anyone. I don't quite know how to say how I feel. Those three words are said too much. They're not enough. Let's waste time. I need your grace to remind me to find my own.*~
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Mollywobbles
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

I think they were cleaning up Grimmauld Place just to make it fit to use as the headquarters for the Order. Of course, with Sirius living there full time, it would be necessary to get rid of all the nasty stuff just to be safe.

 

I'm not committed to the idea of Sirius courting death, but I did get the distinct feeling that his reckless streak had taken a bit of a darker turn.  Wasn't there some line where Harry cautions Sirius about using the floo network (I can't remember the exact circumstances) and Sirius says Harry is not as much like James as he thought-that it was the danger that made things fun?

 

I can certainly understand why Sirius would not stand for staying at Grimmauld Place when he learned Harry had been lured to the MOM, but I also got the feeling that Sirius was rather exhilarated by the battle, rather than just looking to get Harry and the other kids to safety.


Par4course wrote:
Wait...Sirius was looking forward to Harry coming to live with him some day, wasn't he?  Yes, it would still be a year or two, but wasn't that the idea of cleaning up the place?    So I don't think he was 'courting death', just that he was going to protect Harry by going to MOM...of course, then he confused Harry with his father.


 

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Mollywobbles
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Hey MrsRW,

 

You and Matrim make good points about Moody, guess I'll have to read that section again!  It's kind of an odd protection, though, isn't it?  Why just use the tongue tie curse, why not something a little more powerful, since they were all convinced Snape had killed Dumbledore.  Snape managed to get in anyway to take the photo.  Why would Moody just settle for silencing Snape temporarily?  Why would silencing be of any value anyway?  All the adult wizards could do non-verbal spells, so what real use was the tongue tie curse?


mrsRW wrote:

hey matrim wassup..

yes I knew it was Moody who cast the spell as well for the tongue tie curse. Mollywobbles and I were trying to figure out if Moody's spell lasted even after he died...Because of your min-boggling topic! LOL 

Actually Wobbles, it  was DD's image that the 'dusts form' however it was Moody's growling voice that emanated from the image, since he was the one who cast it.,I don't think there's a very accurate explanation of how Voldy can't gain access to Grimauld Place. JKR left a lot of gray areas that I think she left for us to speculate but the author never really provided answer for, example, the secret keeper business.. 

 

 


 

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mrsRW
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Exactly, wobbles. But the curse is pretty good because I thought the curse had a different effect on someone who is weak and truly guilty, which Snape and Harry wasn't. As far as I'm concerned, Snape was really upset with DD's decision even in book 7. Basing from Snape's scene with DD when he announced Snape was the 'lucky' one to do the honors... well, I think, just beneath the surface, Snape thought DD could do with a better option than having himself killed. At least until the poison in his body kill DD completely. I dunno, Im thinking DD committed suicide sometimes,.

any thoughts on this? 

~*We'll do it all, everything, on our own. We don't need anything or anyone. I don't quite know how to say how I feel. Those three words are said too much. They're not enough. Let's waste time. I need your grace to remind me to find my own.*~
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matrim
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Re: bugs? about secret keeper & Harry's phoenix wand

Moody leaves me the impression of a somewhat comical figure. Despite his "constant vigilance", he had been ambushed and overpowered by Crouch Jr. and Wormtail, and he didn't show extraordinary magic in battles (OotP and HBP) either, which contradicted others' claims about his toughness and being the best Auror the Ministry had ever had (Sirius?). When I think of him, the picture instantly pops into my mind is he fussed about Harry putting his wand in his jean's pocket and deliberately wound their way to Grimmauld Place. :smileywink:


Mollywobbles wrote:

Hey MrsRW,

 

You and Matrim make good points about Moody, guess I'll have to read that section again!  It's kind of an odd protection, though, isn't it?  Why just use the tongue tie curse, why not something a little more powerful, since they were all convinced Snape had killed Dumbledore.  Snape managed to get in anyway to take the photo.  Why would Moody just settle for silencing Snape temporarily?  Why would silencing be of any value anyway?  All the adult wizards could do non-verbal spells, so what real use was the tongue tie curse?