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jftapia88
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Registered: ‎02-01-2007
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is snape a tragic hero?

i just recently read Oedipus the King in english and we had a big discussion about it and i wrote my paper saying that Oedipus is a tragic hero. well if you think about it if snape turns out to be a "good guy" he just may be a tragic hero. (for a better explanation of a tragic hero look it up on wikipedia they do a better job of explaining it than i do)

the keys to being one:
1) nobleness or wisdom
2) tragic flaw
3) reversal of fortune due to their flaw
4) discovery or recognition that the reversal was caused by their own actions.
5) they must suffer for the good of the community

for snape his possibilities:
1- nobleness can be a personality trait or a rank, so him being the half blood PRINCE
2- his tragic flaw could be that he is irascible, and that he is divided
3- his reversal of fortune, after he kills DD he is basicly seen as the traitor, the guy who fooled them all
4 & 5- since i have yet to finish the series idk if he has discovered or recognized anything about himself yet, so this will be spaculation: he does and since it is traditional for the tragic hero to suffer i think he will die or be seriously hurt.

like in Oedipus the king he gouges out his own eyes.

well if anybody like my idea, feel free to say so, if u dont feel free as well. i would like to see what other ppl think about snape being a tragic hero, i may be wrong about the aspects that make him one, so reply away!
Julie
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BobbiAnne
Posts: 491
Registered: ‎02-01-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

Well, the only thing I see that makes me a bit suspicous is that the tragic hero is usually the protagonist, but this isn't Ancient Greece and you do say that he is A tragic hero, not THE tragic hero. So, I think you're good, espeicially for 3am! Yikes!
1) nobleness or wisdom
: well, this one's easy, he's obviously talented and quite sharp
2) tragic flaw
: due to what I think was his reversal of fortune (see below), I'd have to say his tragic flaw would be whatever caused him to go into the Shrieking Shack the night James saved him. I don't think we have much more information other than Snape telling Harry that Sirius set him up and DD telling us James saved Snapes life.
3) reversal of fortune due to their flaw
I think this reversal of fortune began with Sirius' little joke and ended with Snape owing a life debt to James for saving his life-not only that, but forcing him to see James as something other than what he wanted to see. He'd never admit to that, though. I think Snape was fine with being into the Dark Arts and hating the marauders. I think this incident, however, was a true turining point for him (as Dumbledore also points out to Harry, leaving out a few minor details about Sirius setting him up-of course that's the part Snape would talk about and remember- not what James did to save him and protect both Sirus and Lupin)
4) discovery or recognition that the reversal was caused by their own actions.
I think he had an epiphany and turned spy for Dumbledore.
5) they must suffer for the good of the community
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jftapia88
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Registered: ‎02-01-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?


BobbiAnne wrote:
Well, the only thing I see that makes me a bit suspicous is that the tragic hero is usually the protagonist, but this isn't Ancient Greece and you do say that he is A tragic hero, not THE tragic hero. So, I think you're good, espeicially for 3am! Yikes!
1) nobleness or wisdom
: well, this one's easy, he's obviously talented and quite sharp
2) tragic flaw
: due to what I think was his reversal of fortune (see below), I'd have to say his tragic flaw would be whatever caused him to go into the Shrieking Shack the night James saved him. I don't think we have much more information other than Snape telling Harry that Sirius set him up and DD telling us James saved Snapes life.
3) reversal of fortune due to their flaw
I think this reversal of fortune began with Sirius' little joke and ended with Snape owing a life debt to James for saving his life-not only that, but forcing him to see James as something other than what he wanted to see. He'd never admit to that, though. I think Snape was fine with being into the Dark Arts and hating the marauders. I think this incident, however, was a true turining point for him (as Dumbledore also points out to Harry, leaving out a few minor details about Sirius setting him up-of course that's the part Snape would talk about and remember- not what James did to save him and protect both Sirus and Lupin)
4) discovery or recognition that the reversal was caused by their own actions.
I think he had an epiphany and turned spy for Dumbledore.
5) they must suffer for the good of the community


yes i know wut u mean, it does seem a little fishy that hes not the protagonist. but o well, i just had the idea while i was reading somebody's post. it said hero, and it just clicked, the way he acts he just seems so much like one.

do you think he could possibly suffer from excessive pride? i mean like u say, he fails to mention some of the details of the shreiking shack incident. he wouldnt want to seem gullible or anything. and he never fails to throw it in sirius's face that he is being a spy for the order and that he has to be kept in the house and stuff.

as for it being 3 am. im a cancer, therefore ruled by the moon, i thrive in the wee hours of the morning. actually i dont really believe that kind of stuff, im just an insomniac. how did u know it was that late when i posted it? i keep trying to figure out when ppl post stuff but i cant. and trust me it wasnt easy, after i had the idea i had to search for my english notes to make sure i wasnt crazy, and that i wasnt completely off in my own world.
Julie
Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

The post time and date for messages is listed on the bottom of the left column, the column where your screen name appears...
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Proper-T
Posts: 579
Registered: ‎02-02-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

I was goona ask would something that you can't control be part of your flaw... in Oedipus he thought he was doing right the whole time... So could Sanpe's tragic flaw be landing in Slytherin? I mean, had he not ended up there maybe he wouldn't have felt the need to play up to the "pure blood" image? And of course what would follow would be having to face the Maruaders countless times, and then the Death of Lily and James. Just wondering...



jftapia88 wrote:
i just recently read Oedipus the King in english and we had a big discussion about it and i wrote my paper saying that Oedipus is a tragic hero. well if you think about it if snape turns out to be a "good guy" he just may be a tragic hero. (for a better explanation of a tragic hero look it up on wikipedia they do a better job of explaining it than i do)

the keys to being one:
1) nobleness or wisdom
2) tragic flaw
3) reversal of fortune due to their flaw
4) discovery or recognition that the reversal was caused by their own actions.
5) they must suffer for the good of the community

for snape his possibilities:
1- nobleness can be a personality trait or a rank, so him being the half blood PRINCE
2- his tragic flaw could be that he is irascible, and that he is divided
3- his reversal of fortune, after he kills DD he is basicly seen as the traitor, the guy who fooled them all
4 & 5- since i have yet to finish the series idk if he has discovered or recognized anything about himself yet, so this will be spaculation: he does and since it is traditional for the tragic hero to suffer i think he will die or be seriously hurt.

like in Oedipus the king he gouges out his own eyes.

well if anybody like my idea, feel free to say so, if u dont feel free as well. i would like to see what other ppl think about snape being a tragic hero, i may be wrong about the aspects that make him one, so reply away!


I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
Frequent Contributor
jftapia88
Posts: 474
Registered: ‎02-01-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?


Proper-T wrote:
I was goona ask would something that you can't control be part of your flaw... in Oedipus he thought he was doing right the whole time... So could Sanpe's tragic flaw be landing in Slytherin? I mean, had he not ended up there maybe he wouldn't have felt the need to play up to the "pure blood" image? And of course what would follow would be having to face the Maruaders countless times, and then the Death of Lily and James. Just wondering...
well the tragic flaw the way i understand it, and was lectured about, is kinda a character flaw, like a personality trait. people cant control their personalities right? well considering snape being sorted, doesnt the sorting hat make its decision about where you go by reading your everything and putting you where you would most fit? so the hat just put snape where he would have probably chosen to go based on his character before he got to school. and as for him being in slytherin being the reason he "went bad", look at pettigrew, he was in gryffindor, and he helped voldemort get his body back. so yea the flaw is something that usually would be considered something you cant control, unless you want to, and you work towards it. think about people in anger managment, they cant really help that they do the things they do, but then they can. does that make sense? its a yes and a no, because you can control it, just most dont have the ablilty to.

so maybe we should revise your idea some. instead of him being put in slytherin being his flaw- his flaw is what caused him to be put in slytherin. so what were the qualities that slytherin liked for his students to posess? ambition, snape was pretty keen to get that order of merlin wasnt he?
Julie
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rena64
Posts: 205
Registered: ‎02-06-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

[ Edited ]

jftapia88 wrote:

Proper-T wrote:
I was goona ask would something that you can't control be part of your flaw... in Oedipus he thought he was doing right the whole time... So could Sanpe's tragic flaw be landing in Slytherin? I mean, had he not ended up there maybe he wouldn't have felt the need to play up to the "pure blood" image? And of course what would follow would be having to face the Maruaders countless times, and then the Death of Lily and James. Just wondering...
well the tragic flaw the way i understand it, and was lectured about, is kinda a character flaw, like a personality trait. people cant control their personalities right? well considering snape being sorted, doesnt the sorting hat make its decision about where you go by reading your everything and putting you where you would most fit? so the hat just put snape where he would have probably chosen to go based on his character before he got to school. and as for him being in slytherin being the reason he "went bad", look at pettigrew, he was in gryffindor, and he helped voldemort get his body back. so yea the flaw is something that usually would be considered something you cant control, unless you want to, and you work towards it. think about people in anger managment, they cant really help that they do the things they do, but then they can. does that make sense? its a yes and a no, because you can control it, just most dont have the ablilty to.

so maybe we should revise your idea some. instead of him being put in slytherin being his flaw- his flaw is what caused him to be put in slytherin. so what were the qualities that slytherin liked for his students to posess? ambition, snape was pretty keen to get that order of merlin wasnt he?




-----------------------------
I think they have the ability for anger management but they don't know how to use it. They have to learn how to use this ability.

About the posting times. The times are listed in your time zone. If the person posting is in your time zone then that is the time they are posting. If not you have to know where that person is and add or subtract the hours. As an example my time zone is +7 hours from Eastern Time.

I am a cancer too but I am not really into signs. I never thought about the connection between the moon and my being a night owl but it makes sense.

Message Edited by rena64 on 04-29-200712:10 PM

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dcsbelle
Posts: 1,041
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

I'm finding the discussion of Snape as a tragic hero very interesting but I'd like to get off topic a bit if I may. Rena64, you said you were seven hrs ahead of Eastern time and now you've piqued my curiosity. Where are you from? I don't want to be nosy but I get curious about the people on these boards and would like to know more about all of you if you care to share. Just call me Rita Skeeter sans Quik-Quotes Quill pen! :smileyhappy:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rena64 wrote:

>About the posting times. The times are listed in your time zone. If the person posting is in your time zone then that is the time they are posting. If not you have to know where that person is and add or subtract the hours. As an example my time zone is +7 hours from Eastern Time.

I am a cancer too but I am not really into signs. I never thought about the connection between the moon and my being a night owl but it makes sense.

Message Edited by rena64 on 04-29-200712:10 PM




Debbie

Hedwig is not really dead; it was all just a big misunderstanding
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rena64
Posts: 205
Registered: ‎02-06-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

I live in Jerusalem, Israel. I was born and grew up in Long Island, NY. I moved here after college, but have lived in NY for two years during that time, not two years consecutively but 1 year and then after a few years another year. I don't mind the questions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


dcsbelle wrote:
I'm finding the discussion of Snape as a tragic hero very interesting but I'd like to get off topic a bit if I may. Rena64, you said you were seven hrs ahead of Eastern time and now you've piqued my curiosity. Where are you from? I don't want to be nosy but I get curious about the people on these boards and would like to know more about all of you if you care to share. Just call me Rita Skeeter sans Quik-Quotes Quill pen! :smileyhappy:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rena64 wrote:

>About the posting times. The times are listed in your time zone. If the person posting is in your time zone then that is the time they are posting. If not you have to know where that person is and add or subtract the hours. As an example my time zone is +7 hours from Eastern Time.

I am a cancer too but I am not really into signs. I never thought about the connection between the moon and my being a night owl but it makes sense.

Message Edited by rena64 on 04-29-200712:10 PM







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dcsbelle
Posts: 1,041
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity! It's good to have someone from another part of the world even if you are a transplanted New Yorker! :smileyhappy: We have someone here from
Australia and I think maybe a few from Great Britain but most of us, I suspect, are from the continental US. (I'm from Queens.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rena64 wrote:
I live in Jerusalem, Israel. I was born and grew uin Long Island, NY. I moved here after college, but have lived in NY for two years during that time, not two years consecutively but 1 year and then after a few years another year. I don't mind the questions.
Debbie

Hedwig is not really dead; it was all just a big misunderstanding
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jftapia88
Posts: 474
Registered: ‎02-01-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?


rena64 wrote:

jftapia88 wrote:

Proper-T wrote:
I was goona ask would something that you can't control be part of your flaw... in Oedipus he thought he was doing right the whole time... So could Sanpe's tragic flaw be landing in Slytherin? I mean, had he not ended up there maybe he wouldn't have felt the need to play up to the "pure blood" image? And of course what would follow would be having to face the Maruaders countless times, and then the Death of Lily and James. Just wondering...
well the tragic flaw the way i understand it, and was lectured about, is kinda a character flaw, like a personality trait. people cant control their personalities right? well considering snape being sorted, doesnt the sorting hat make its decision about where you go by reading your everything and putting you where you would most fit? so the hat just put snape where he would have probably chosen to go based on his character before he got to school. and as for him being in slytherin being the reason he "went bad", look at pettigrew, he was in gryffindor, and he helped voldemort get his body back. so yea the flaw is something that usually would be considered something you cant control, unless you want to, and you work towards it. think about people in anger managment, they cant really help that they do the things they do, but then they can. does that make sense? its a yes and a no, because you can control it, just most dont have the ablilty to.

so maybe we should revise your idea some. instead of him being put in slytherin being his flaw- his flaw is what caused him to be put in slytherin. so what were the qualities that slytherin liked for his students to posess? ambition, snape was pretty keen to get that order of merlin wasnt he?




-----------------------------
I think they have the ability for anger management but they don't know how to use it. They have to learn how to use this ability.

About the posting times. The times are listed in your time zone. If the person posting is in your time zone then that is the time they are posting. If not you have to know where that person is and add or subtract the hours. As an example my time zone is +7 hours from Eastern Time.

I am a cancer too but I am not really into signs. I never thought about the connection between the moon and my being a night owl but it makes sense.

Message Edited by rena64 on 04-29-200712:10 PM




yes thats what i meant, im just not very good with words. they have the ability, but they dont know how to use it.

the traits of a slytherin:
Julie
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Proper-T
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Registered: ‎02-02-2007
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Re: is snape a tragic hero?

That works for me his tragic flaw is his Slytherin qualities. Another Slytherin quality: being brave but will always save their own neck first. That certainly backfired on him didn't it? Bravely playing both sides of the war to keep himself alive, but now he's on the run after all that...



jftapia88 wrote:

well the tragic flaw the way i understand it, and was lectured about, is kinda a character flaw, like a personality trait. people cant control their personalities right? well considering snape being sorted, doesnt the sorting hat make its decision about where you go by reading your everything and putting you where you would most fit? so the hat just put snape where he would have probably chosen to go based on his character before he got to school. and as for him being in slytherin being the reason he "went bad", look at pettigrew, he was in gryffindor, and he helped voldemort get his body back. so yea the flaw is something that usually would be considered something you cant control, unless you want to, and you work towards it. think about people in anger managment, they cant really help that they do the things they do, but then they can. does that make sense? its a yes and a no, because you can control it, just most dont have the ablilty to.

so maybe we should revise your idea some. instead of him being put in slytherin being his flaw- his flaw is what caused him to be put in slytherin. so what were the qualities that slytherin liked for his students to posess? ambition, snape was pretty keen to get that order of merlin wasnt he?


I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...