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snapehater19
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I think you are probably right on that. LV has split his soul into so many pieces that he passed the exit for 'human' along time ago. I mean having opposable thumbs seperates us from the apes but having a soul that is ripped into seven pieces pretty much seperates you from everything and can probably qualify him as a new species, in the least. A simple killing curse would not be sufficient to finish off the Dark Lord because I mean, Harry has a certain flair and reputation to live up to. It is going to be something that is unique only to him even if it is something simple. I am willing to bet that DD's 'love is a power' theory is going to have some major play time in this upcoming DH. It saved Harry once as a child and I am sure that it will save him again. Honestly, do you think that LV learned his lesson and thinks "Gee, I wonder if love will backfire on me again?" Nope, in total contradiction to DD, mean old Voldy will only see the worst in people and that gonna bite him right in his left buttock.
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Mollywobbles
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Slughorn tells Riddle in the real pensieve memory that the only way to tear one's soul is to commit the ultimate act of evil (or words to this effect), namely murder. Sluggie is shocked when Riddle asks about tearing his soul more than once-into a nice magical seven part soul. Riddle deliberately sought to tear his soul into bits in order to create the horcruxes and achieve something close to immortality. The soul is intended to remain whole and undamaged.

By the way, I believe it is only in the movie that Quirrel turns to dust. As I recall, in the book, Quirrel survived briefly, and Voldemort left him to die, prompting Dumbledore to say that Voldemort treats his supporters just as badly as he treats his foes. The turning to dust bit in the movie does make a nice piece of cinema, however, and it saves them having to explain what happens to Quirrel. One other discrepancy between book and movie-in the book, when Harry first meets Quirrel in the Leaky Cauldron, he shakes his hand. In the movie, Harry holds out his hand, but Quirrel doesn't shake it. It's a little peculiar that movie Quirrel seemed to think there would be a problem shaking Harry's hand, and yet in the final chamber scene, is surprised when he gets burned by touching Harry. The books are just infinitely better than the movies for little details like this.

cheers



Windameir wrote:
Horcrux's and Killing

A lot of people are giving a lot of weight to the damage done to ones soul if they kill someone. I think the damage depends on how they feel about what they did. Voldermort and the DE's have no remorse and even take pleasure from the taking of a life. Versus someone like Harry who feels terrible and is filled with great remorse even though it was either his life or theirs, Harry allready had a hand in killing someone in the Sorcerer's Stone IE: Prof Quirrell Turned to dust because of Harrys Touch The Reason for the taking of a life is what is important in determining the cost to the soul.

There is a also a big difference between the Damage that is done to ones soul caused by killing someone VS the Ripping apart caused by creating a Horcrux, two totally different situations. Voldermort diliberately TORE his soul into peices to create all his horcrus's.


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Windameir
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Good point Mollywobbles the books are infinately better by far and after a time the books and the movies seem to get muddled together in my mind anyway.

Wasn't murder a necessity to create a horcrux 1 murder per horcrux?
Death is not the end
It is only the begining of another wonderfull journey
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kpeterson32
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Re: the great Snape Debate



Jr55678 wrote:
I beleive that Snape is a good guy souly because DD beleived in him and thats what I think too. I think we dont give snape credit where credit is due in the OOTP trailer when Harry is telling the D.A. that all great witches or wizards started off where they are today why would snape put put among the ranks of Dumbeldore and Mad-Eye so I think that snape is a extremely aclomplished wizard.




Being an extremely accomplished wizard and being evil are not mutually exclusive. Snape can easily be both. He is certainly talented. That almost goes without saying. But this doesn't mean that he is using his talents in the right way.

And about the point that was made about Dumbledore's mistakes being "correspondingly huger"...well, I have yet to have anyone explain to me what is a huger mistake than misplacing trust in the person that would ultimately kill him.
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Thomas_T
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Re: the great Snape Debate

[ Edited ]
Making a horcrux does not rip apart your soul, killing rips apart your soul, a Horcrux is made when you take the part of ripped soul (That you now have from committing murder) and put it into another object.
The steps are:
Kill someone, which tears your soul.
Cast the horcrux spell, which then places the part of your soul that is ripped from the killing into that object.
If you have not killed anyone, casting the Horcrux spell wouldn't do anything.



Windameir wrote:
Horcrux's and Killing

A lot of people are giving a lot of weight to the damage done to ones soul if they kill someone. I think the damage depends on how they feel about what they did. Voldermort and the DE's have no remorse and even take pleasure from the taking of a life. Versus someone like Harry who feels terrible and is filled with great remorse even though it was either his life or theirs, Harry allready had a hand in killing someone in the Sorcerer's Stone IE: Prof Quirrell Turned to dust because of Harrys Touch The Reason for the taking of a life is what is important in determining the cost to the soul.

There is a also a big difference between the Damage that is done to ones soul caused by killing someone VS the Ripping apart caused by creating a Horcrux, two totally different situations. Voldermort diliberately TORE his soul into peices to create all his horcrus's.

Message Edited by Windameir on 07-18-2007 03:51 PM



Message Edited by ShadowCougar on 07-18-2007 04:26 PM
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Mollywobbles
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Yup, murder was a prerequisite to creating a Horcrux. It has to be a planned thing-commit the murder (which rips your soul) then do the spell/enchantment to seal the soulbit in the object (horcrux).

I think perhaps your original post suggested that there might be a distinction between people who deliberately committed murder, and those who might have inadvertently caused death (the Quirrel reference)and the relative impact that would have on their soul.

Harry's soul wasn't affected by Quirrel's death because Harry's intent wasn't to kill Quirrel, it was to keep him from getting the stone.

If, however, this logic follows, Harry's in deep doo doo. He's setting out to destroy/kill Voldemort. Even after Dumbledore explains the distinction of the prophecy to him, Harry still says he would want to go after Voldemort. If his intent is to kill Voldemort (after destroying the remaining soulbits in the outstanding horcruxes) his (Harry's) soul may be damaged, even though he does not intend to create a horcrux.



Windameir wrote:
Good point Mollywobbles the books are infinately better by far and after a time the books and the movies seem to get muddled together in my mind anyway.

Wasn't murder a necessity to create a horcrux 1 murder per horcrux?


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StoryMing
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Re: the great Snape Debate



kpeterson32 wrote:
You're exactly right, here, sparkle. At the end of the graveyard scene, when Harry dashes back to the portkey, Voldemort and the Death Eaters are chasing him:

"Stand aside! I will kill him! He is mine!" shrieked Voldemort. (pg 669)

He ordered the Death Eaters not to kill Harry. And we've never heard evidence that he ever rescinded that order.



happysparkle wrote:
Snape is irrefutably evil. Some might point out that Snape's behaviour when fleeing the school with the DE was a bit off for someone so evil (i.e. NOT killing HP), but I believe Snape's remark about saving Harry for the Dark Lord was spot on. From what we know of Voldemort and his belief in the prophecy (a belief so strong that he has been fixated on killing HP for the last 15 years), I think he would be furious indeed if someone else finished off Harry.







Sure, orders are orders, Harry is not to be killed; but I see absolutely no reason why they couldn't have had a bit of rough play with him first, and still have left 'Potter for the Dark Lord', not much the worse for wear.
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jamik_hhp
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I just finished reading book 6 again this week and I have to say that she is very clear in that book about where Snape stands. The look of hate in his eyes. The way he speaks about Harry's father and the anger in Snapes voice. The way he drags Malfoy off and then they disappear.

Snape's true colors finally came out. Everyone knows it and I really think that DD is dead. I hate to say it but after reading the book again I truely think that DD has passed.
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kpeterson32
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Re: the great Snape Debate



StoryMing wrote:
Sure, orders are orders, Harry is not to be killed; but I see absolutely no reason why they couldn't have had a bit of rough play with him first, and still have left 'Potter for the Dark Lord', not much the worse for wear.




Gosh, and here I was thinking you would counter with something like, "Well then, why didn't they take Harry with them?"
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kpeterson32
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Re: the great Snape Debate



jamik_hhp wrote:
I just finished reading book 6 again this week and I have to say that she is very clear in that book about where Snape stands. The look of hate in his eyes. The way he speaks about Harry's father and the anger in Snapes voice. The way he drags Malfoy off and then they disappear.

Snape's true colors finally came out. Everyone knows it and I really think that DD is dead. I hate to say it but after reading the book again I truely think that DD has passed.




I agree, Jamik. By the end of Book 6, it's time to start finding out truths, rather than starting up brand new mysteries about people. For six books we were told to trust Severus, that he was worthy and had renounced his old ways. The big shock came at the end of book 6 when we found out that our doubts about him were true. It's not still to come with the revelation that we were wrong about him again.
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hpfan1
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Re: the great Snape Debate


jamik_hhp wrote:
I just finished reading book 6 again this week and I have to say that she is very clear in that book about where Snape stands. The look of hate in his eyes. The way he speaks about Harry's father and the anger in Snapes voice. The way he drags Malfoy off and then they disappear.

Snape's true colors finally came out. Everyone knows it and I really think that DD is dead. I hate to say it but after reading the book again I truely think that DD has passed.





DD is dead. I read it here. http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book7/rumors.shtml

I think snape is evil but will become good in the end.
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phrodo41
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Re: the great Snape Debate



StoryMing wrote:


kpeterson32 wrote:
You're exactly right, here, sparkle. At the end of the graveyard scene, when Harry dashes back to the portkey, Voldemort and the Death Eaters are chasing him:

"Stand aside! I will kill him! He is mine!" shrieked Voldemort. (pg 669)

He ordered the Death Eaters not to kill Harry. And we've never heard evidence that he ever rescinded that order.



happysparkle wrote:
Snape is irrefutably evil. Some might point out that Snape's behaviour when fleeing the school with the DE was a bit off for someone so evil (i.e. NOT killing HP), but I believe Snape's remark about saving Harry for the Dark Lord was spot on. From what we know of Voldemort and his belief in the prophecy (a belief so strong that he has been fixated on killing HP for the last 15 years), I think he would be furious indeed if someone else finished off Harry.







Sure, orders are orders, Harry is not to be killed; but I see absolutely no reason why they couldn't have had a bit of rough play with him first, and still have left 'Potter for the Dark Lord', not much the worse for wear.




I can think of several reasons for Snape to not torture Harry and/or bring him to Voldemort:

- the unbreakable vow obigates Snape to protect Draco and bring him to safety. This is what his life depends on at this time, and Harry would just get in the way.
- the Ministry had already been alerted - Snape even says,"before the Ministry shows up."
- Buckbeak starts attacking Snape; we don't know what he might have done had buckbeak not shown up. He had already disarmed Harry, remember?
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PIX
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I think everybody have good and evil inside but we should "remember" are your choices what define you. So, despite Severus nature (which in my opinion is more evil than good) the question is what are the emotions that are going to guide his decisions... where is the love that is going to help him not to get drag from the dark side again??? So far, maybe the only person who loves Severus was Dumbledore. They were "friends" they trust each other... He has not honest friends in the Order, school, or death eaters. Nobody really trust him.

Now that his only connection with love is lost... I am not sure how he is going to carry out the plan. We all must agreed that, before the tragic moment, he was loyal to Dumbledore and only him, I think... We are going to see Severus battling with himself during the book about these issues... and I honestly think it could turn one way or the other. But at the end, I can only wish he would make it work, he would contribute to destroy Voldemort even if it means he have to die.

If we do not see a possible connection between the Order and Severus, this one might not be need it. Maybe it is too dangerous to have one, maybe he knew nobody would really trust him, maybe his role is to fight Voldemort from the inside and the Order from the outside... We will found out soon enough....

Thank you for reading this!
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howmarplus3
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Re: the great Snape Debate



RiftDoggy wrote:
Snape is easily the most complex character in the entire series. Have you noticed that he's the only one whose loyalties are really in question? Not even Peter or Draco are really up in the air, since most admit that Peter has a life debt, and Draco isn't quite on Voldy's side anymore (we know he isn't as loyal anymore, we just don't know exactly what he's going to do next).
No matter how much people argue, we don't know where Snapes loyalties lie, and we don't know why he does what he does. I personally think that he is loyal only to his own agenda, and that may involve helping Harry in his quest. I think Snape really does feel some extreme guilt over what happened to James and Lily (okay, he feels bad about Lily), and this is what motivates him. We hear that he saved Harry in Book 1 because he thought that would cancel his life debt to James. That's idiotic. Snape is one of the most knowledgeable wizards ever, considering what his job is (spy, teacher). His life debt was cancelled when James died. He does what he does now because he feels personally obligated to help Harry.
I think that Dumbledore and Snape did plan you-know-what together, but this doesn't mean that he's loyal to the Order. It just makes him loyal enough to Harry to work with Dumbledore towards a common end.
Snape isn't evil, and he isn't good. He's just extremely conflicted, and has fixated himself on one goal only: protecting Harry. You could say that he's made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry, aid him in his quest, and complete the quest if needed, TO HIMSELF (in a figurative, normal-sort-of-vow way).




I agree. Someone doesn't have to be all good or all bad in JKR's world. Look at James - he was a real jerk sometimes.

Remember, everyone, that Dumbledore has always said that LOVE is the most powerful magic of all. I think that is ultimately why Harry will defeat Voldemort - because he is capable of love and LV is not. I really think that is one of Jo's central messages. I believe because Snape once loved Lily, he is bound by that love to protect Harry. That is why Dumbledore always trusted Snape, but could never tell Harry why (can you imagine the revulsion Harry would feel if he found out Snape loved his mother???). If there is one thing about the characters in the HP books, it's that they are HUMAN (well, other than the fact that they can do magic). And humans are COMPLICATED! They constantly struggle with good and evil. Yes, Snape has done some rotten things and has a lousy personality. But I think he will ultimately be redeemed somehow by Harry - sort of like how Darth Vader is redeemed in the end by Luke (ok, it's true - I'm an ultra-geek!).

Happy reading everyone!
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dcsbelle
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Re: the great Snape Debate

"Extremely conflicted"--I like that and it suits him perfectly!



RiftDoggy wrote:
Snape is easily the most complex character in the entire series. Have you noticed that he's the only one whose loyalties are really in question? Not even Peter or Draco are really up in the air, since most admit that Peter has a life debt, and Draco isn't quite on Voldy's side anymore (we know he isn't as loyal anymore, we just don't know exactly what he's going to do next).
No matter how much people argue, we don't know where Snapes loyalties lie, and we don't know why he does what he does. I personally think that he is loyal only to his own agenda, and that may involve helping Harry in his quest. I think Snape really does feel some extreme guilt over what happened to James and Lily (okay, he feels bad about Lily), and this is what motivates him. We hear that he saved Harry in Book 1 because he thought that would cancel his life debt to James. That's idiotic. Snape is one of the most knowledgeable wizards ever, considering what his job is (spy, teacher). His life debt was cancelled when James died. He does what he does now because he feels personally obligated to help Harry.
I think that Dumbledore and Snape did plan you-know-what together, but this doesn't mean that he's loyal to the Order. It just makes him loyal enough to Harry to work with Dumbledore towards a common end.
Snape isn't evil, and he isn't good. He's just extremely conflicted, and has fixated himself on one goal only: protecting Harry. You could say that he's made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry, aid him in his quest, and complete the quest if needed, TO HIMSELF (in a figurative, normal-sort-of-vow way).


Debbie

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Lectura_Bard
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Well just finished HBP I think Snape killed DD with no remorse. I am not saying there is a good chance that he was under the control of Voldemort. But, I think it seems unlikely at that moment when he killed DD; my take he was well aware of what he was doing when he kill DD. Take a look for a moment Snapes history. He does what benefits himself in the end (in petty or large issues), he is a seeker for revenge of those he feels he was wronged in some way; that is his character from way back. I think if he could he would back stab even Voldemort and he kind of did when he entered Hogwarts and left Vol's side. He is a wind sniffer and is true to himself ulitmately. He has his own agenda and he has had his own plan of ridding people from way back regardless of Voldemort. He is more dangerous than Voldemort because, he plays on people's trust on both sides of the coin. Anyway, anything is possible and we will all find out shortly what was truly going on in Snapes mind.

DD I think is officially dead, yes he does have a portrait of himself on the headmaster/headmistress wall of his office so that is the only way to contact him. But, that is merely an echo of DD. There is still that hope that may be DD will come back with his phoenix "return from the ashes and rise like a phoenix from the ashes". He was able to be one with his familiar Fawkes; so that is a possible chance of his return.

One thing that comes to mind is Hermione's time travel piece. I would think with that device anything is possible and can change the order of anything that took place.
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JenniG0812
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Re: the great Snape Debate



Psychee wrote:
Harry has already been instrumental in someone's death -- Quirrell's. He touched his skin until it blistered him so badly that Voldemort left him for dead. Granted, he was probably a bit still alive at the time that Dumbledore extricated him from Harry's clutches, but no one can deny that Harry contributed to his death.




Now that you bring this up... wouldn't that count as seeing death or someone die? So if that would, I wonder why it took him seeing Cedric's death for him to see the thestrals(sp)?
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JenniG0812
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Re: the great Snape Debate



Psychee wrote:


kaliedra wrote:


Nyyankees55 wrote:
Yeah, you can only make one Horcrux per time you kill.



This I understand but the earlier bit I quoted - to me - implied one was made EVERY time you killed and I don't think that is accurate. If that was the case a dark wizard running about killing people would eventually be fractured into so many pieces that I don't imagine they could survive




I think you are getting a bit confused here. Murder always causes your soul to fracture. Horcruxes take advantage of that fracture and separate a soul part out to put elsewhere.




You also have to remember that DD said he thought that Voldy left his horcrux making for very important killings, like his father. He didn't just make horcruxes willy-nilly. So that is why DD thinks that there is just seven. Not to mention the fact that he would have to find something to put the horcrux in and spells to protect them.
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stmungos
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Harry didn't see Quirrel die, he passed out before his death therefore he didn't "see" death. With Cedric, he saw him die with his own eyes which is why he now sees the thestrals and not before.

About Snape, if Dumbledore trusts him, I trust him. When he took Harry with him to search for the horcrux, he made Harry promise to do whatever he told him to do, even if it left Dumbledore in danger, I'm willing to bet that he and Severus had the same agreement, and that he gave up his life to protect Draco from Voldemort. I think he will communicate through his portrait in the office and let Harry know why he sacrificed his life. We shall find out soon enough.
If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals. -Sirius Black
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ABI
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I must say...I only partly agree. Yes, the obvious response to Snape's betrayal is that he is evil and has been all along (and yes, i strongly believe that DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD), but there is all evidence to suggest that he is not! in fact, there is all evidence to suggest that he IS evil as well! But let us think...has Snape really been biding his time all these years when at any time he could have struck? or was it the unbreakable vow that drove him to it? And if he was truly bad to the core, was it only a mistake that in 'the order of the pheonix' he let Harry into his mind for that one instant to show him what his father was really like? Was he really that ignorant of the spell to be unable to block it? In an attempt perhaps to make up for all he'd done the past years...or just an explanation? Plus, Snape obviously cares for Malfoy (as, might i remind you, the dark lord and his followers would simply not stand for), as why would he swear to the unbreakable vow in the first place? And how, if he was always loyal to the dark lord, could Dumbledore trust him so fervently? Dumbledore could not possibly have made such an incredible mistake! I agree, he is not a good-natured man, but still...something about him screams confusion. In my humbe opinion, Severous SNAPE IS BETWEEN SIDES, undecided, stuck in the middle, severed in half by his two very different loyalties, however you want to put it; i suppose we'll all find out in a few very LONG days...
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