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Tonks07
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Re: the great Snape Debate

ok backing up a few posts here, anyone ever think that DD asked Snape to kill him because he was trying to save Draco, not only from having to do it, but from lord voldiepants, in that V would have used this as a good excuse to dissect the little runt.

The sorting hat, if you all remember the song it sand at the head of the year, sang about the four houses needing to come together. Well, Draco having a change of alliances would fufill that.

As for Neville, i think he is under a memory charm of some sort but weather it was put on him for honorable or dis-honorable reasons is a matter of debate. Also if it hasn't actually caused him more grief than if he could just 'remember' what he's been made for forget.
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phrodo41
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Re: the great Snape Debate



StoryMing wrote:

amm1 wrote:
You know, ShadowCougar, this is how I have always read this scene. I don't know why people narrow Dumbledore's response down to begging for his own life or begging Snape to kill him. I've always believed Dumbledore was begging for Snape's soul or as you say it, but for Snape not to make this mistake, not to kill Dumbledore, not to turn his back on everything Dumbledore thought he could be. ... Now the problem I do have with this is that Dumbledore was insisting upon Harry getting Snape and no one else. At this point it doesn't appear Dumbledore had any reason to doubt Snape. When Snape arrives on the scene, I don't know what could have occurred in such a short period of time for Dumbledore to realize he had been wrong about Snape. ... I'm probably not making sense.



Yes, you are making sense, amm1. This is the other credible explanation: I could possibly believe that DD was begging/pleading for Snape not to endanger his own soul by committing this evil. And since DD is a farly accomplished legilimens, it is IS logically possible that he "read" Snape's murderous intent. He would have had time enough to do legilimency, I suppose- just not a clear motive or incentive, if he trusted him.

The problem is that this still raises more questions than it answers, about Snape's behavior. There are a hundred thousand instances where he could have gotten away with FAR more sabotage and damage than he actually did; to me this is inexplicable if he's truly on Voldemort's side (and if he's out for himself, he's put himself in an extremely perilous position, betraying BOTH DD and LV, the 2 most powerful wizards alive; far more prudent to lay low like Slughorn.)


phrodo41 wrote:
The difference between our viewpoints here is how serious Snape's personal defects are with regard to his loyalties. Some of us view this kind of action as a serious, serious problem that goes beyond a mere personal defect. When someone REPEATEDLY treats other people the way Snape does, would you really want to trust them to fight for your side? What kind of message does it send to have Snape turn out to be a good guy despite his behavior? That it doesn't matter how you treat other people as long as you're technically fighting on the right side?


I know we've disagreed on this phrodo, but I can far more easily accept the message it sends to have Snape turn out to be a good guy despite his behavior, than the message it sends to have DD be such a complete dupe. To have Snape be on the right side does NOT excuse his behavior, it does NOT mean the abuse is okay; even Sirius' uncaring treatment of Kreatcher was not excused by DD, remember. It just means that "the world isn't neatly split into good people and Death Eaters". Whereas if DD is wrong about Snape, he is wrong about second-chances, trust, and love-- and Voldemort is "right": love is weak and foolish.

Message Edited by StoryMing on 07-17-2007 11:01 PM




Being wrong about Snape IS a huge mistake, so in order for it to be believable, we need some explanation for how such mistakes are possible for someone as wise as Dumbledore.
The thing is, Dumbledore has already alerted the reader that he has the potential to make huge mistakes; and Jo has been clear on this as well. If Dumbledore or Jo had never made this clear, I would be more inclined to agree. So you can't just go saying Dumbldore is an idiot for making this mistake, when we've been given this explanation from at least two different sources.

And Dumbledore's message of trust and love and second chances remains as strong as ever. Snape is not the only person Dumbledore has trusted or given a second chance to. Lupin, Mundungus, Hagrid and Draco come to mind for starters. He is not wrong about second chances; just about Snape, and for reasons that have already been explained.

One thing I think Jo wants to get across in her books is that it is very important how you treat other people - especially your inferiors. Sirius and Kreacher is a perfect example of this. The way James and Sirius treated Snape. The way Crouch treated his son and Winky. To make such a hero of someone who has been so relentlessly awful all along (and I'm not saying he can't redeem himself in the end; just that he's no hero at the moment) is a confusing message; I honestly am not sure what to make of it.
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BlackOctober13
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Re: the great Snape Debate

is there a difference between occlumeny and legilimency? because LV is supposed to be the most powerful legilimens in the world...however if he is then why wouldn't he just penetrate snapes mind and see that he was a double agent??




or could he more powerful in occlumency that LV is in penetrating minds.........


because even in the end snape was trying to help harry "You have got to learn to close your mind!!" as he was running away after killing DD and deflecting harrys spells....
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phrodo41
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Re: the great Snape Debate

[ Edited ]
I think part of trusting someone means letting your guard down, to an extent. I think that Dumbledore trusted Snape at such a level that he didn't feel the need to examine his mind through legillimency every moment of the day. And even if he did, Snape is extremely skilled with Occlumency.

I think you should be asking the same question about Voldemort. Snape is an expert at Occlumency, caught in a war between two wizards who are reknown Legillimens (legillimi??). One of them has a tendency to trust others; the other one is paranoid that someone is going to overthrow him or betray him. Which one do you think would be trying to read Snape's mind, and consequently, which one would be more difficult to Occlumens against?

It's very symmetrical in a way; I wonder, did Jo set this up as some kind of puzzle, or as a way of cancelling out Snape, DD and LV's mental powers so the whole thing is reduced to a matter of trust only.

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-18-2007 01:06 AM

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-18-2007 01:07 AM

Message Edited by phrodo41 on 07-18-2007 01:08 AM
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: the great Snape Debate

[ Edited ]
The whole book series is a puzzle, so Snape's allegiance is just another part of it.


phrodo41 wrote:
I think part of trusting someone means letting your guard down, to an extent. I think that Dumbledore trusted Snape at such a level that he didn't feel the need to examine his mind through legillimency every moment of the day. And even if he did, Snape is extremely skilled with Occlumency.

I think you should be asking the same question about Voldemort. Snape is an expert at Occlumency, caught in a war between two wizards who are reknown Legillimens (legillimi??). One of them has a tendency to trust others; the other one is paranoid that someone is going to overthrow him or betray him. Which one do you think would be trying to read Snape's mind, and consequently, which one would be more difficult to Occlumens against?

It's very symmetrical in a way; I wonder, did Jo set this up as some kind of puzzle, or as a way of cancelling out Snape, DD and LV's mental powers so the whole thing is reduced to a matter of trust


Message Edited by PattyBNUChick on 07-18-2007 05:07 AM
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: the great Snape Debate

As for Lupin's second chance, he's a werewolf, and I personally think he's done something that he's hiding, but does Dumbledore know that (and is it even true, its just my theory), so being a werewolf doesn't require a 'second chance'. And as for Hagrid, I would bet from the get-go, Dumbledore pretty much knew Riddle was guilty and Hagrid was framed but like Mrs Cole at the orphanage, couldn't prove it. And Dung, well maybe Dumbledore needs someone like him in the order, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's given him a 'second chance', he might be just sort of 'using' him for his 'skills', that doesnt mean he trusts him or gave him a second chance in the sense that it appears he did Snape.



phrodo41 wrote: And Dumbledore's message of trust and love and second chances remains as strong as ever. Snape is not the only person Dumbledore has trusted or given a second chance to. Lupin, Mundungus, Hagrid and Draco come to mind for starters.

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Re: the great Snape Debate

Snape is easily the most complex character in the entire series. Have you noticed that he's the only one whose loyalties are really in question? Not even Peter or Draco are really up in the air, since most admit that Peter has a life debt, and Draco isn't quite on Voldy's side anymore (we know he isn't as loyal anymore, we just don't know exactly what he's going to do next).
No matter how much people argue, we don't know where Snapes loyalties lie, and we don't know why he does what he does. I personally think that he is loyal only to his own agenda, and that may involve helping Harry in his quest. I think Snape really does feel some extreme guilt over what happened to James and Lily (okay, he feels bad about Lily), and this is what motivates him. We hear that he saved Harry in Book 1 because he thought that would cancel his life debt to James. That's idiotic. Snape is one of the most knowledgeable wizards ever, considering what his job is (spy, teacher). His life debt was cancelled when James died. He does what he does now because he feels personally obligated to help Harry.
I think that Dumbledore and Snape did plan you-know-what together, but this doesn't mean that he's loyal to the Order. It just makes him loyal enough to Harry to work with Dumbledore towards a common end.
Snape isn't evil, and he isn't good. He's just extremely conflicted, and has fixated himself on one goal only: protecting Harry. You could say that he's made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry, aid him in his quest, and complete the quest if needed, TO HIMSELF (in a figurative, normal-sort-of-vow way).
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StoryMing
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Re: the great Snape Debate



BlackOctober13 wrote:
is there a difference between occlumeny and legilimency? because LV is supposed to be the most powerful legilimens in the world...however if he is then why wouldn't he just penetrate snapes mind and see that he was a double agent?? or could he more powerful in occlumency that LV is in penetrating minds......... because even in the end snape was trying to help harry "You have got to learn to close your mind!!" as he was running away after killing DD and deflecting harrys spells....




Well that's one of the big questions, whether Snape's ability to "block" thought reading could possibly be stronger than Voldemort's ability to penetrate his defenses and "read".

I do note however that in the first occlumancy lesson, Snape mentions that, as LV is the most powerful legilimens probably ever, he "almost always knows when someone is lying to him"- ALMOST always- and that only those who are able to effectively shut down their thoughts and emotions thru occlumancy can keep him from seeing what would give them away, "and so utter falsehoods in his presence whithout detection"
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phrodo41
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Re: the great Snape Debate



PattyBNUChick wrote:
As for Lupin's second chance, he's a werewolf, and I personally think he's done something that he's hiding, but does Dumbledore know that (and is it even true, its just my theory), so being a werewolf doesn't require a 'second chance'. And as for Hagrid, I would bet from the get-go, Dumbledore pretty much knew Riddle was guilty and Hagrid was framed but like Mrs Cole at the orphanage, couldn't prove it. And Dung, well maybe Dumbledore needs someone like him in the order, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's given him a 'second chance', he might be just sort of 'using' him for his 'skills', that doesnt mean he trusts him or gave him a second chance in the sense that it appears he did Snape.



phrodo41 wrote: And Dumbledore's message of trust and love and second chances remains as strong as ever. Snape is not the only person Dumbledore has trusted or given a second chance to. Lupin, Mundungus, Hagrid and Draco come to mind for starters.






I'm not sure what point you are trying to make; all I was saying is that Snape is not the only "questionable" person Dumbledore trusts, and being wrong about Snape doesn't mean all his trusting was in vain. He's caught plenty of flack for whom he's chosen to associate with, but this is something we love about him. Can you imagine Hogwarts without Hagrid, for instance?
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I was just saying that in my opinion some of the people you referenced as getting second chances, didn't seem like a second chance person to me, like Dumbledore didnt need to give them a second chance because he knew they'd done nothing wrong to warrant a second chance perhaps.



phrodo41 wrote:


PattyBNUChick wrote:
As for Lupin's second chance, he's a werewolf, and I personally think he's done something that he's hiding, but does Dumbledore know that (and is it even true, its just my theory), so being a werewolf doesn't require a 'second chance'. And as for Hagrid, I would bet from the get-go, Dumbledore pretty much knew Riddle was guilty and Hagrid was framed but like Mrs Cole at the orphanage, couldn't prove it. And Dung, well maybe Dumbledore needs someone like him in the order, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's given him a 'second chance', he might be just sort of 'using' him for his 'skills', that doesnt mean he trusts him or gave him a second chance in the sense that it appears he did Snape.



phrodo41 wrote: And Dumbledore's message of trust and love and second chances remains as strong as ever. Snape is not the only person Dumbledore has trusted or given a second chance to. Lupin, Mundungus, Hagrid and Draco come to mind for starters.






I'm not sure what point you are trying to make; all I was saying is that Snape is not the only "questionable" person Dumbledore trusts, and being wrong about Snape doesn't mean all his trusting was in vain. He's caught plenty of flack for whom he's chosen to associate with, but this is something we love about him. Can you imagine Hogwarts without Hagrid, for instance?


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phrodo41
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Re: the great Snape Debate

"second chances" is incidental. The point is trusting people who other people might not normally trust. Lots of people don't like werewolves and half giants and black market cauldron dealers; or Death Eaters for that matter - regardless of what they've done.
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happysparkle
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Re: the great Snape Debate

[ Edited ]
Snape is irrefutably evil. Some might point out that Snape's behaviour when fleeing the school with the DE was a bit off for someone so evil (i.e. NOT killing HP), but I believe Snape's remark about saving Harry for the Dark Lord was spot on. From what we know of Voldemort and his belief in the prophecy (a belief so strong that he has been fixated on killing HP for the last 15 years), I think he would be furious indeed if someone else finished off Harry. If nothing else, it seems to be a question of vengeance for what happened almost 16 years ago when he tried to kill HP the first time. Furthermore I feel that Snape, even as brilliant an Occlumens as he is, would not quite be able to hide his real intentions from the Dark Lord if he were really a 'good' guy.

As far as the Unbreakable Vow goes, I think that although Snape had a strong dislike for Dumbledore, he would not have wanted to kill him (for some of the same points he made to Bellatrix about being comfortable in his job and being able to pass information to the Dark Lord, particularly now that he had the DADA job) - hence his reluctance to make the Vow in the first place - but I think he did realize how ultimately useful it would be to Voldemort to have Dumbledore out of the way.

To kpeterson32's question for Snape-lovers ("Why would Dumbledore allow anyone else to rip apart their own soul?"), Snape may have already murdered in his Death Eater days. However, this doesn't seem as likely, as Snape is more the cowardly bully type, hiding behind and abusing power when he has it, and currying favor to those in higher positions. He is aggressive, cruel, and vindictive, but not (IMHO) a murderer until he killed Dumbledore.

I do agree with the idea of self-sacrifice that StoryMing presented; however, I see it in a different light. Dumbledore clearly sacrificed himself for Harry. He used what was to be the last spell he'd ever cast to put the Full Body-Bind curse on Harry, freezing him under his cloak unseen in the hopes that no one would find or harm HP. I think DD knew when Draco burst through the door that he only had one shot, and rather than use it to save himself/attack Death Eaters, he chose to save Harry (probably because of the prophecy and all that). StoryMing had another good point in a later post - Dumbledore did not fear death, so why would he plead with Snape? I don't think he was pleading for his own life, or to make Snape look more convincing as a cold-blooded killer; I felt he was pleading for the lives of all those he wouldn't be able to protect if he were gone. With Dumbledore gone, there's not much left to stand in Voldemort's way, and that's what Dumbledore fears. He cares about far too many people to want to let Voldemort destroy them (even Draco, who he knows still has a chance to redeem himself - he offered him every protection available from the Dark Lord, not out of some desperate bid for his life, but out of love). That said though, as DD and HP have said, Dumbledore will only truly be gone from Hogwarts when none left there are loyal to him. I don't think it's truly the end of DD - he'll be back in some limited capacity somehow. I still wonder if Dumbledore had a Horcrux of his own, maybe in Fawkes...

Message Edited by happysparkle on 07-18-2007 11:31 AM
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Tonks07
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Re: the great Snape Debate

there is somethign redeaming about anyone, you just have to knwo what angle to look at them :smileywink: Poor Severus though, i still think he was given a raw deal in life. I mean i know from experence that the trama's you go thru when yoru younger DO make you want to lash out and actualy keep people from 'getting' to you again when yoru older so you do come off as seemingly 'cold'.
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kpeterson32
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Dumbledore misplacing his trust in Snape does not make him an idiot. It does not make him a dupe or a moron or anything of the sort. Dumbledore heard Snape's story and believes him. This makes him opposite of Voldemort. Voldemort does not trust anyone. He has to resort to mind-reading to know who's on his side.

And while we're on that subject, I would like to renew my statement that when someone uses Occlumency, the Legilimens knows about it. Snape knew that Draco was blocking him and commented that Aunt Bella was giving Draco lessons. If Snape knew that Draco was using Occlumency, why wouldn't Voldemort, the "greatest legilimens of all time" know if Snape was using it against him?

There is no wrong or confusing message if Snape is a bad guy. The truth in life is that some people never change, no matter how much people care about them. Dumbledore obviously cared a great deal for Snape, but that wasn't enough. Like phrodo said, this does not mean that redemption is impossible for Snape. He might still act in a way that ultimately helps defeat Voldemort, whether he wants to or not. But at this moment, I see no reason to believe that his actions are noble on any level.

Besides, if Dumbledore was expecting Snape to kill him, why did he try to send Harry to get Snape? Why not say, Hey, let's just sit here for a minute and see what happens? Up until the moment when Snape charged through the door on the Astronomy Tower, without his presence being requested, Dumbledore still thought Snape would save his life once again, as had been done the previous summer.
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kpeterson32
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Re: the great Snape Debate

You're exactly right, here, sparkle. At the end of the graveyard scene, when Harry dashes back to the portkey, Voldemort and the Death Eaters are chasing him:

"Stand aside! I will kill him! He is mine!" shrieked Voldemort. (pg 669)

He ordered the Death Eaters not to kill Harry. And we've never heard evidence that he ever rescinded that order.



happysparkle wrote:
Snape is irrefutably evil. Some might point out that Snape's behaviour when fleeing the school with the DE was a bit off for someone so evil (i.e. NOT killing HP), but I believe Snape's remark about saving Harry for the Dark Lord was spot on. From what we know of Voldemort and his belief in the prophecy (a belief so strong that he has been fixated on killing HP for the last 15 years), I think he would be furious indeed if someone else finished off Harry.


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Thomas_T
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I agree with almost everything you said, except this. Yes I believe that Dumbledore will have a part to play, and yes I think he will communicate to Harry (Weather by Pensieve, portrait, chocolate frog card, magic mirrors, mystical butterbeer, or illegally enchanted goats, I don't know). However, JKR has said that "Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness". And we know from Hermione's searching in HBP that the Horcrux is the "darkest of magical inventions". These two idea just could never equal The Big D having a horcrux.



happysparkle wrote:
That said though, as DD and HP have said, Dumbledore will only truly be gone from Hogwarts when none left there are loyal to him. I don't think it's truly the end of DD - he'll be back in some limited capacity somehow. I still wonder if Dumbledore had a Horcrux of his own, maybe in Fawkes...

Message Edited by happysparkle on 07-18-2007 11:31 AM


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Jr55678
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Re: the great Snape Debate

I beleive that Snape is a good guy souly because DD beleived in him and thats what I think too. I think we dont give snape credit where credit is due in the OOTP trailer when Harry is telling the D.A. that all great witches or wizards started off where they are today why would snape put put among the ranks of Dumbeldore and Mad-Eye so I think that snape is a extremely aclomplished wizard.
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phrodo41
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Re: the great Snape Debate

with all due respect, I don't think the editors that put together the OOTP trailer have any of the answers from book 7.
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Windameir
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Re: the great Snape Debate

[ Edited ]
Horcrux's and Killing

A lot of people are giving a lot of weight to the damage done to ones soul if they kill someone. I think the damage depends on how they feel about what they did. Voldermort and the DE's have no remorse and even take pleasure from the taking of a life. Versus someone like Harry who feels terrible and is filled with great remorse even though it was either his life or theirs, Harry allready had a hand in killing someone in the Sorcerer's Stone IE: Prof Quirrell Turned to dust because of Harrys Touch The Reason for the taking of a life is what is important in determining the cost to the soul.

There is a also a big difference between the Damage that is done to ones soul caused by killing someone VS the Ripping apart caused by creating a Horcrux, two totally different situations. Voldermort diliberately TORE his soul into peices to create all his horcrus's.

Message Edited by Windameir on 07-18-2007 03:51 PM
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Re: the great Snape Debate

Snape is about as deep as my left pocket and I am inclined to believe that he is just pure evil. I am more interested in as to why DD trusted Snape. I mean yeah he told DD some story about being sorry for turning in the prophecy that he heard and not knowing it was talking about Lily and James Potter but I mean is that all that it would take to convince DD? Yes, Snape is an accomplished occlumens but I wonder if DD didn't know something else that is yet to be revealed. And DD says so himself, "I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being-forgive me-rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger." pg 197 HBP. And if indeed DD did give Snape an order to kill him then he proves he is evil by consenting at all. Secondly exactly when did he recieve this order because at the beginig of HBP Snape makes that unbreakable vow with Narcissa (not to mention points out several good reasons why we should not trust him.)