Discussion Topic (SS): Two Worlds

[Rachel-K]

Many fantasy tales are set entirely within an imaginary world (The Hobbit, for example, or Eragon). Others, like the Harry Potter books, take their characters between two worlds -- our "ordinary" universe, and magical or fantastic world. What are the themes and ideas that the latter form specifically allows the storyteller to focus on? If you're re-reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone for the first time, how does Rowling's initial treatment of the reality that we "Muggles" experience now seem to you?

---

Reply to this message to discuss this topic. Or start your own new topic by clicking "New Message."

[Cahill42]

One of the things that really struck me when I first read HP & SS was the materialism that many of the Muggles, especially the Dursleys, exhibited. Not to say that people in the wizarding world didn't exhibit materialism as well (i.e. Malfoys). Beyond that, I think that one of the things that Rowling does really well is to show that Muggles and magical people aren't really all that different...they both exhibit materialism, prejudice, bigotry, hatred, love, friendship, etc. Sure wizards and the like have magic, and Muggles are fascinated by it, but think of Mr. Weasley and his fascination for Muggle technology. Think on how he grills Harry on the workings of different Muggle items. I guess my point here is that people are people, magic or no magic.

[Rachel-K]

Hi Cahill42,

One of my favorite little twists in the contrast between the Muggle and Wizarding worlds is Mr. Weasley's muggle obsession! Instead of wizards seeming exotic to ordinary people, we have it the other way around.

I'm glad you bring up materialism. Isn't it interesting that in the magical world of the wizards, money is still an issue? Why is this? Mrs. Weasley can set the breakfast to cooking itself, but they are still (relatively) poor.

Rachel

Message Edited by rkubie on 01-13-200708:45 AM

[Nadine]

Actually, I consider the magical world just a mirror image of the muggle world. Everything is the same except there is the added dimension of magic to make for a more unique and interesting story. They have the same government, the same hospitals, the same school system, the same shopping and banking needs, similar sports, and the kids have the same problems in school and growing up. The fantasy elements also disassociate enough from the real muggle world to allow a certain level of commentary (government) and activities that probably could not be addressed successfully in a real muggle world (kids learning and practicing very dangerous skills and activities in school).

Nadine

[Nadine]

Though the Muggle world and Magical world are kept very separate (and there are whole government departments devoted to this) storywise there may be a more intermingling of the two, especially in the last book. Muggles can have offspring that are magical and seem to accept that. Some Magical people, such as squibs, have no magical abilities and are more like Muggles.

Number 4 Privet Drive and the Dursleys, as stated in the first chapter of the book, are about as Muggle as you can get. They may also more be more important to both worlds than we realize and I don't think it is a spoiler to say that even by Book Six we still do not know specifically why it is so important that Harry return there every year and will have to return once again in the seventh book. We will probably find out in the seventh book. I think Dumbledore knew and he put it in his letter he left with Harry. We still do not know what was in that letter.

Some things I do find very curious, especially in revisiting SS, was their motivation in taking in and keeping Harry? They obviously don't like or want him

1. They are or profess to be ordinary Muggles. In fact JKR makes this very clear in chapter one--overly so.

2. They did not need to keep Harry. They could have put him in an orphanage.

3. They always take him back every year because it is required for some reason.

4. They are reluctant to place him in the hands of anyone else except Mrs. Figgs.

5. The very ordinary Mr. Dursley, obsessed with only his own job and Duddley, places his job in jeopardy, disrupts his family, subjects them to a great deal of discomfort, and risk, just to keep Harry from going to magical school. If it were Petunia, and she had a deep affection for her sister (which she doesn't), I could understand her feeling this way but why Mr. Dursley?

6. I might mention (though I won't be specific because of spoilers) that the Dursley family has some misfortunes because of their association with Harry's world even though just on the fringe. Yet, they keep allowing him back every year (and it seems to be their option).

7. I might add one other odd thing. The Dursley's give Harry some very odd and ordinary gifts. I don't remember them off-hand except for old socks, a fifty pence piece, I think an old coat hanger, etc.

I can understand trying to keep the two parallel worlds of Muggles and Magic separate and just compare them, but in this particular ordinary family the two worlds exist side by side (though the Magical world is superficially denied) in the person of an ordinary (and that is emphasized) boy who happens to be a wizard.

I suspect this has more to do with both worlds and whether they can coexist and maybe Harry will bring about the end of one or the other and it is in the letter.

Then there was one odd thing on pg 184 (Hard Cover-Scolastic)--a banner at the Quiddich match saying "Potter for President." Is that what the British edition said? It was never mentioned again to my knowledge.

Nadine

Message Edited by Nadine on 01-13-200701:05 PM

[Nadine]

---

Nadine wrote:
Actually, I consider the magical world just a mirror image of the muggle world. Everything is the same except there is the added dimension of magic to make for a more unique and interesting story. They have the same government, the same hospitals, the same school system, the same shopping and banking needs, similar sports, and the kids have the same problems in school and growing up. The fantasy elements also disassociate enough from the real muggle world to allow a certain level of commentary (government) and activities that probably could not be addressed successfully in a real muggle world (kids learning and practicing very dangerous skills and activities in school).

Nadine

---

I might add to my comments on the parallels of the two worlds that the above might might mean a lot to the first-time reader of SS. At this point in the reading we know nothing about the magical government, very little about the school system, virtually nothing about the Weasley's living situation (we haven't even met Mr Weasley yet), nothing about the hospital system, nothing about the problems and prejudice about mixed marriages, or labor issues, or many of the other parallels draw and commented upon between the worlds. The first book only addresses what happens to a boy brought up as an ordinary Muggle who finds himself part of a Magical world that he knew nothing about. However, that is the experience that first attracted me to the books and has unique fairytale quality to it, an experience we never find again in the later books, so I will try to address that in a later post.

Nadine

[diane1224]

I have noticed that ms. rowling tries to put aliitle of the "different" things we see everyday as an idea of how to explain the magic in the harry potter world that muggles overlook as weird or unusual

[Wrighty]

---

Nadine wrote:

---

Nadine wrote:
Actually, I consider the magical world just a mirror image of the muggle world. Everything is the same except there is the added dimension of magic to make for a more unique and interesting story. They have the same government, the same hospitals, the same school system, the same shopping and banking needs, similar sports, and the kids have the same problems in school and growing up. The fantasy elements also disassociate enough from the real muggle world to allow a certain level of commentary (government) and activities that probably could not be addressed successfully in a real muggle world (kids learning and practicing very dangerous skills and activities in school).

Nadine

---

I might add to my comments on the parallels of the two worlds that the above might might mean a lot to the first-time reader of SS. At this point in the reading we know nothing about the magical government, very little about the school system, virtually nothing about the Weasley's living situation (we haven't even met Mr Weasley yet), nothing about the hospital system, nothing about the problems and prejudice about mixed marriages, or labor issues, or many of the other parallels draw and commented upon between the worlds. The first book only addresses what happens to a boy brought up as an ordinary Muggle who finds himself part of a Magical world that he knew nothing about. However, that is the experience that first attracted me to the books and has unique fairytale quality to it, an experience we never find again in the later books, so I will try to address that in a later post.

Nadine

---

Nadine,

What exactly do you mean by your last comment "...an experience we never find again in the later books,..."? You had some very interesting things to say and I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that part. Just curious.

[Muggle1]

I loved her explaination for why our house numbers skip a few numbers - disguised wizard houses! It's fantastic!

[Muggle1]

JKR is able to address very 'real world' (our world) issues within her book by mirroring the two worlds. Like most classic authors, she transcends time and place by eliminating boundaries on what we know and allows all to relate by weaving in classic themes, such as good vs. evil. We can relate to it on so many different levels of our own lives (micro- and macrocosms), but the pleasure is that it is such a different world, it seems like a break. She creates characters, wizard and muggle alike, that we can all point to in our daily lives. Classic literature, in my opinion, allows us to identify with the characters while they battle with life's truisms. Schools sadly seem to have given up on the classics (at least when I graduated, not too long ago) under the guise that today's children just won't read because there's a lack of stimulation - hats off for JKR for proving them wrong! Children (and adults!) pour over these books, and when I stop to think why, I come back to the idea that we can all identify with the characters. We are genuinely concerned for Harry and his friends and want them to save the Stone. Dumbledore's wisdom is a source of comfort - to the characters as well as to us (well, me anyway!). He's a constant source of calm, rational thought with a little brilliance thrown in! The father/grandfather figure Harry needs and we want him to have. JKR has succeeded in creating a world that, though incredibly different from ours, reflects our values and struggles with enough distance that it is still enjoyable and not too stiff a shot of reality!

[Nadine]

Wrighty Said:
----------------------------
The first book only addresses what happens to a boy brought up as an ordinary Muggle who finds himself part of a Magical world that he knew nothing about. However, that is the experience that first attracted me to the books and has unique fairytale quality to it, an experience we never find again in the later books, so I will try to address that in a later post.

Nadine

--------------------------------------
Nadine,

What exactly do you mean by your last comment "...an experience we never find again in the later books,..."? You had some very interesting things to say and I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that part. Just curious.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I started reading the books later than most and I'm not the expert that many of you are. But I do remember the first time I read the first book. It was kind of a Cinderella story. The story of rather ordinary boy who was disliked by his "step" family and treated more like servant and hated by his cousin. His joys were few, like going to the zoo for the first time and having real treats but only because his spoiled cousin didn't think them adequate. He had always thought there was something different about himself but was always criticized or even punished for his specialness.

Then one day he receives a letter. He doesn't know what it is or why and his uncle behaves strangely and won't let his see the letter. In a cold cabin in the middle of nowhere the boy has his 11th birthday alone and unloved. Then suddenly a friendly giant appears, tells him is is indeed very special--he is a wizard and belongs in the magic world. He is to go to a magical school where he will learn his craft and then the giant rescues him from his "wicked" relatives.

He discovers the magical world of Diagon Alley where he sees all sorts of wonders he has never experienced in his life. He discovers that in this magical world he is very rich and famous. Every experience is a wonderful new discovery and thrilling for him. He makes new friends where he had none before, the school is a magical castle, he belongs to a "house", he experiences feasts where he had been half-starved before, he discovers in this world the post is delivered by owls and even owns a beautiful snowy white owl of is own, his first ever Birthday present. The world has strange and friendly ghosts and all sorts of magical creatures. He becomes the prime player of a new sport called Quiddich with the distinction of being the youngest Seeker ever and is a hero right off. The Cinderella boy is experiencing his greatest fantasy.

It is this magical quality that I am referring to. I think many remember it but so much has happened since. Eventually the "real" world and life problems enter his life and the period of wonderment is gone. It cannot be captured again--life interferes. The boy must grow up and face life's problems. I think this magic was captured in the movie as well.

That is what I mean when I say the first part of SS was very special.

Nadine

[LizzieAnn]

Obviously the magical world allows the creator free rein with her imaginative process. She can create a world where whatever she needs or wants to be possible in order the give the story depth. I like how JKR has the worlds living side-by-side, with the magical world keeping the muggle world at bay - and even to an extent protecting them.

While they are two distinctly different worlds, they are also similiar in many ways: children attend school, there's a form of government, wars, threats, danger, love, families, rules & laws, and, interestingly, money. They just take different forms.

Message Edited by LizzieAnn on 01-13-200704:46 PM

[Wrighty]

---

Nadine wrote:
Wrighty Said:
----------------------------
The first book only addresses what happens to a boy brought up as an ordinary Muggle who finds himself part of a Magical world that he knew nothing about. However, that is the experience that first attracted me to the books and has unique fairytale quality to it, an experience we never find again in the later books, so I will try to address that in a later post.

Nadine

--------------------------------------
Nadine,

What exactly do you mean by your last comment "...an experience we never find again in the later books,..."? You had some very interesting things to say and I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that part. Just curious.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I started reading the books later than most and I'm not the expert that many of you are. But I do remember the first time I read the first book. It was kind of a Cinderella story. The story of rather ordinary boy who was disliked by his "step" family and treated more like servant and hated by his cousin. His joys were few, like going to the zoo for the first time and having real treats but only because his spoiled cousin didn't think them adequate. He had always thought there was something different about himself but was always criticized or even punished for his specialness.

Then one day he receives a letter. He doesn't know what it is or why and his uncle behaves strangely and won't let his see the letter. In a cold cabin in the middle of nowhere the boy has his 11th birthday alone and unloved. Then suddenly a friendly giant appears, tells him is is indeed very special--he is a wizard and belongs in the magic world. He is to go to a magical school where he will learn his craft and then the giant rescues him from his "wicked" relatives.

He discovers the magical world of Diagon Alley where he sees all sorts of wonders he has never experienced in his life. He discovers that in this magical world he is very rich and famous. Every experience is a wonderful new discovery and thrilling for him. He makes new friends where he had none before, the school is a magical castle, he belongs to a "house", he experiences feasts where he had been half-starved before, he discovers in this world the post is delivered by owls and even owns a beautiful snowy white owl of is own, his first ever Birthday present. The world has strange and friendly ghosts and all sorts of magical creatures. He becomes the prime player of a new sport called Quiddich with the distinction of being the youngest Seeker ever and is a hero right off. The Cinderella boy is experiencing his greatest fantasy.

It is this magical quality that I am referring to. I think many remember it but so much has happened since. Eventually the "real" world and life problems enter his life and the period of wonderment is gone. It cannot be captured again--life interferes. The boy must grow up and face life's problems. I think this magic was captured in the movie as well.

That is what I mean when I say the first part of SS was very special.

Nadine

---

OK, I get it now. That makes perfect sense and I agree with what you're saying. I think another way that the first part was very special was that this was a unique experience for the reader as well. There have been similar books in regards to the subject but I know that when I first read this it was like nothing I had read before. It was the beginning of a magical world that pulled you in and made you want more. It was the start of a phenomena that hadn't quite taken hold yet. Now, as much as I enjoy the movies and the hype, you still have an idea what's coming and that it will be on a grand scale. Who hasn't heard of Harry Potter by now?

The details and the creativity are so amazing to me. And the best part is that through this whole series it has stayed interesting and just made you want more. I've only read the books once so far but I've never been bored and I'm having fun rereading them now. J.K. must have an awesome brain and I can't wait to see what she has up her sleeve after Harry. Talk about pressure to perform! Does anyone know if she has any plans or ideas yet?

[Rosebear]

It tickles me that Rowling tells her story from the Magical world, viewing the "Muggle" world. I enjoy the parallels. The Ministry of Magic -v- the muggle government; schools -v- Hogwarts; and it goes on and on, especially in later books. My husband found it intriguing that a magical world would celebrate Christmas. I admit that the process of acquisition puzzles me. We never hear how James and Lily Potter came to acquire such a fortune as is hidden beneath Gringotts. Yet, the Weasleys, albeit a pure-blood family, aren't from the highly affluent side of wizardry as say are the Malfoys. Do we see any family not associated with Slytherin and the Death Eaters that appears wealthy? Is there an underlying theme of affluence equals questionable associations and behaviors?

[Nadine]

Wrighty Said:
OK, I get it now. That makes perfect sense and I agree with what you're saying. I think another way that the first part was very special was that this was a unique experience for the reader as well. There have been similar books in regards to the subject but I know that when I first read this it was like nothing I had read before. It was the beginning of a magical world that pulled you in and made you want more. It was the start of a phenomena that hadn't quite taken hold yet. Now, as much as I enjoy the movies and the hype, you still have an idea what's coming and that it will be on a grand scale. Who hasn't heard of Harry Potter by now?

The details and the creativity are so amazing to me. And the best part is that through this whole series it has stayed interesting and just made you want more. I've only read the books once so far but I've never been bored and I'm having fun rereading them now. J.K. must have an awesome brain and I can't wait to see what she has up her sleeve after Harry. Talk about pressure to perform! Does anyone know if she has any plans or ideas yet?

---------------------------------

I'm just now rereading the chapters on the Keeper of the Keys and Diagon Alley. It seems over the years I have forgotten much and distorted it some (especially because of the movie). These are two very rich chapters comparing and contrasting the Muggle and Magical worlds. They are very much alike in that the problems in each are foreign to the other and are difficult to deal with. Like the post owls, money, getting around town, having to purchase the things needed (you would think Wizards could just conjure up what they need but they have to buy and pay for things), kids being the same all over (excited about the latest broom like they would the latest bicycle), the magic world is a mirror image of the muggle world only seen in a different way that makes our world more fresh and interesting because we are looking through a magic prism.

Nadine

[Wrighty]

---

Nadine wrote:
Wrighty Said:
OK, I get it now. That makes perfect sense and I agree with what you're saying. I think another way that the first part was very special was that this was a unique experience for the reader as well. There have been similar books in regards to the subject but I know that when I first read this it was like nothing I had read before. It was the beginning of a magical world that pulled you in and made you want more. It was the start of a phenomena that hadn't quite taken hold yet. Now, as much as I enjoy the movies and the hype, you still have an idea what's coming and that it will be on a grand scale. Who hasn't heard of Harry Potter by now?

The details and the creativity are so amazing to me. And the best part is that through this whole series it has stayed interesting and just made you want more. I've only read the books once so far but I've never been bored and I'm having fun rereading them now. J.K. must have an awesome brain and I can't wait to see what she has up her sleeve after Harry. Talk about pressure to perform! Does anyone know if she has any plans or ideas yet?

---------------------------------

I'm just now rereading the chapters on the Keeper of the Keys and Diagon Alley. It seems over the years I have forgotten much and distorted it some (especially because of the movie). These are two very rich chapters comparing and contrasting the Muggle and Magical worlds. They are very much alike in that the problems in each are foreign to the other and are difficult to deal with. Like the post owls, money, getting around town, having to purchase the things needed (you would think Wizards could just conjure up what they need but they have to buy and pay for things), kids being the same all over (excited about the latest broom like they would the latest bicycle), the magic world is a mirror image of the muggle world only seen in a different way that makes our world more fresh and interesting because we are looking through a magic prism.

Nadine

---

I was reading those sections yesterday! It's amazing how much more I got out of them this time than the first time. I thought they were fascinating and interesting before but I didn't realize how important they were, how they lay the foundation for the magic world. They definitely make more sense now. There are so many details but it's still a fun read not a chore.

[DebsScott]

One of the main attractions of Harry Potter, to me at least, is the fact it deals with "every day life". Okay, so some of that life is in the wizarding world but it's still now...here.... I have a great imagination and can lose myself in any book, but I just love how I can relate to Harry because it could be something that is going on somewhere in this world right now. (okay, just to clarify, I do KNOW this is a fantasy work of fiction...LOL) When Dudley tosses his Playstation out the window or Harry is warned not to play on the computer while the Dursleys are out of the house...I can just see that happening. *This interpretation isn't coming across well in the written word...I know you all think I'm probably nuts.* Okay, let's try it this way: In other fantasy books set in different worlds in different times or dimensions, I can enjoy the experience of reading them. I can be swept up to some far away place and time and ride along with Septimus Heap or Eragon. But Harry Potter...even though I know it's fiction...I can relate. Yes, there is a government and hospitals and school system in the magical world just like we have. Arthur's fascination with plugs and asking Harry "just what is the purpose of a rubber duck" is great. WE know what rubber ducks are for and how plugs work so we can understand Harry's reactions.

The younger people reading the books can relate to them because JKR pulls in every day, real-life situations...just in a magical world. We, as adults, can relate to what is going on because we've all been there at some point in time in our lives. Teenage angst, prejudice, government messing up...they're all things we've handled ourselves. All the fantasy is there for our enjoyment, but along with it, JKR weaves in things we know and understand.

Have I gone off the subject?

Message Edited by DebsScott on 01-15-200712:44 AM

[Wrighty]

---

DebsScott wrote:
One of the main attractions of Harry Potter, to me at least, is the fact it deals with "every day life". Okay, so some of that life is in the wizarding world but it's still now...here.... I have a great imagination and can lose myself in any book, but I just love how I can relate to Harry because it could be something that is going on somewhere in this world right now. (okay, just to clarify, I do KNOW this is a fantasy work of fiction...LOL) When Dudley tosses his Playstation out the window or Harry is warned not to play on the computer while the Dursleys are out of the house...I can just see that happening. *This interpretation isn't coming across well in the written word...I know you all think I'm probably nuts.* Okay, let's try it this way: In other fantasy books set in different worlds in different times or dimensions, I can enjoy the experience of reading them. I can be swept up to some far away place and time and ride along with Septimus Heap or Eragon. But Harry Potter...even though I know it's fiction...I can relate. Yes, there is a government and hospitals and school system in the magical world just like we have. Arthur's fascination with plugs and asking Harry "just what is the purpose of a rubber duck" is great. WE know what rubber ducks are for and how plugs work so we can understand Harry's reactions.

The younger people reading the books can relate to them because JKR pulls in every day, real-life situations...just in a magical world. We, as adults, can relate to what is going on because we've all been there at some point in time in our lives. Teenage angst, prejudice, government messing up...they're all things we've handled ourselves. All the fantasy is there for our enjoyment, but along with it, JKR weaves in things we know and understand.

Have I gone off the subject?

Message Edited by DebsScott on 01-15-200712:44 AM

---

I understand what you're saying. It's fiction but she uses a lot of reality. She pulls you in using things we can all relate to but then she shows us this whole new world she has created parallel to ours. I think she does an excellent job of it too.

[Ineen]

I have always seen the Dursley's as Rowling's commentary on what is wrong with society in general and with parenting in particular. The Dursley's are overindulgent, small-minded and constantly comparing themselves to others in order to feel good about themselves. The way they treat Harry for nearly ten years exhibits the worst of "middle-class" smugness and contempt for anyone who doesn't share their same views. It makes a good counterpoint to the magical world of Hogwarts. However the world of wizards is never portrayed as better than the world of muggles, just different.
Another thought that strikes me is the abundance of affection Harry finds in the wizarding world. It's as though, to make up for the lack in the muggle word, Rowling has showered Harry with people who love and care about him. I see a "doubling up" in the wizarding world; two father figures in Dumbledore and Hagrid, two mother figures in McGonagall and Mrs. Weasley and two best friends in Ron and Hermoine. If the muggle world represents a famine then Hogwarts becomes the feast for Harry, of both food and affection.

[dedaviswright]

I found the Wizarding World much more intriguing. It seemed to bring the Old World culture/history back and mix it with the 21st century. The idea of cloaks, and middle age castles are fantasy to many Americans. The HP books brings those fantasies to life.