Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. We've said goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

Reply
Moderator
Rachel-K
Posts: 1,495
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Harry and Tom Riddle

When Tom Riddle reveals himself to Harry, he points to their likenesses. "Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by muggles. Probably the only two Pareselmouths to come to Howarts since the great Slytherin himself" (from the Scholastic paperback, p.317/chapter 17.)

He concludes that Harry has been able to elude him by "merely a lucky chance," meaning Lily's self-sacrifice. And that, despite their similarities, there is "really nothing special" about Harry.

What do you make of the parallels between them? What, if any, are Harry's advantages against the (self proclaimed) "greatest wizard in the world?"
Frequent Contributor
zandyr83
Posts: 64
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle


rkubie wrote:
When Tom Riddle reveals himself to Harry, he points to their likenesses. "Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by muggles. Probably the only two Pareselmouths to come to Howarts since the great Slytherin himself" (from the Scholastic paperback, p.317/chapter 17.)

He concludes that Harry has been able to elude him by "merely a lucky chance," meaning Lily's self-sacrifice. And that, despite their similarities, there is "really nothing special" about Harry.

What do you make of the parallels between them? What, if any, are Harry's advantages against the (self proclaimed) "greatest wizard in the world?"


Tom was raised in a muggle world but was riddled with hate. (Sorry for the pun, I could not resist it.) He was abondoned by his father when he found out his son was a wizard. As Tom grew up, the hate intensified. Tom focused that hatred and wanted to dominate anyone who had ever held him back. Harry was raised muggle but only because his mother sacrificed herself for him. This act of love sets the two apart. At his core, Harry is kind and compassionate. While he does not like people who continuously hurt him, (ie Dudley and Draco) is sees a bigger picture and that is the kindness in others.
Zandyr
Frequent Contributor
jftapia88
Posts: 474
Registered: ‎02-01-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle (SPOILER)

Im gonna be such a spoiler for this but, in the OoP the prophecy states that Voldemort would mark him as his equal, meaning not only that Harry has to be the one to kill him, but also that Voldemort MADE him equal. For example Harry wouldnt have been raised by muggles if Voldemort had not killed his parents, and DD also tells Harry at the end of CoS that when Voldemort failed to kill Harry, he transfered some of his own powers into him, i.e. being ables to speak to snakes.
Julie
Contributor
PrincessOrual
Posts: 16
Registered: ‎02-06-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle



rkubie wrote:
When Tom Riddle reveals himself to Harry, he points to their likenesses. "Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by muggles. Probably the only two Pareselmouths to come to Howarts since the great Slytherin himself" (from the Scholastic paperback, p.317/chapter 17.)

He concludes that Harry has been able to elude him by "merely a lucky chance," meaning Lily's self-sacrifice. And that, despite their similarities, there is "really nothing special" about Harry.

What do you make of the parallels between them? What, if any, are Harry's advantages against the (self proclaimed) "greatest wizard in the world?"




Where does it say that they are the only two Parselmouths to go to Hogwarts? The gift is rare but not extremely rare.
Contributor
Leprechaun72
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎01-27-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

I think the key word was "probably". We are not sure they are the only 2 parselmouths. Riddle was just speculating. However, there are many things that they do have in common. It is an interesting parallel to observe. Sort of like good and evil being mirror images.

I do think that HP is only a Parselmouth because of the power transferred to him by Voldemort's attack. As Dumbledore explains later to HP, the attack on HP's family not only killed them off, but left something of Voldemort with him. Since we really don't know much of James Potter's family history, we can't be certain that it was not inherited, but I don't think it was.
Contributor
Leprechaun72
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎01-27-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

Also, it is noted on one site that the gift is extremely rare. The only others known to have it are an ancient wizard who created a basilisk and the Slytherin heirs (at least according to my source.)
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!


Leprechaun72 wrote:
I think the key word was "probably". We are not sure they are the only 2 parselmouths. Riddle was just speculating. However, there are many things that they do have in common. It is an interesting parallel to observe. Sort of like good and evil being mirror images.

I do think that HP is only a Parselmouth because of the power transferred to him by Voldemort's attack. As Dumbledore explains later to HP, the attack on HP's family not only killed them off, but left something of Voldemort with him. Since we really don't know much of James Potter's family history, we can't be certain that it was not inherited, but I don't think it was.




I wonder about Lily and her green eyes and if this could be a link to the Slytherin line. I would think to be magical a person would have to inherit some magic genes. I can't see how a magical person can just suddenly be born to a totally Muggle family, so I would assume that magic abilities is kind of a recessive gene. Two Muggles who both have recessive magic genes could produce a magical child while other children might not be Magical at all (but could or could not carry the recessive Magic gene to future generations). I don't want to get into wild speculation in this group (maybe I'll post this in the other one) but it could explain some things.

Also, when Harry heard the snake it was in the wall and not even the hissing was heard by anyone. I wonder if there is a telepathic ability between snakes and parselmouths. The snake at the zoo in SS was also behind glass when Harry first talked to it.

Nadine
Contributor
Jhuygut
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle

I think that Dumbledore presents the greatest example of the differences between Harry and Voldemort and Harry's greatest advantage at the end of The Chamber of Secrets. The difference between them is the choices Harry has made. These choices givens Harry friends, allies and the ability to question his approach and ability. Voldemort doesn't have this because he has so isolated himself through fear that he has noone to back him if he appears to falter and he can't question himself because he has convinced himself he is the greatest and therefore he has eliminated the ability to grow in his abilities.
Frequent Contributor
Becs_Aunt
Posts: 29
Registered: ‎01-28-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

I keep thinking about the difference between the two ideas: One, that we are born with certain traits and behaviors, and Two, that we are a blank slate onto which life writes--creating our behavior as we go.
Rowling, I believe, likes the first idea, but makes frequent use of the second. Harry is constantly described as like his parents (first idea). But, the love he had when he was a baby (even if we discard his mother's sacrifice for the sake of argument) marks him--as all children are marked (second idea). There is the difference between Harry and Tom: Harry has known love while Tom is a classic sociopath. He has never known love. And therefore finds it easy to take life.

There may be surface similarities with them, and it is true that Voldemort's parseltongue and their mind connection were imparted at the moment of the curse. But they had completely different early lives. I like the middle view. I think we are a bit of our genetics and a bit of our life's circumstance.

Dumbledore reminds Harry about this--he can choose his own path. When he is disturbed by discovering his father's callous (cruel) treatment of Snape when they were schoolmates, or when he is faced with the Prophecy, he is in control. Be like his father or not. Succumb to the Prophecy or mold it to his control.
Frequent Contributor
Becs_Aunt
Posts: 29
Registered: ‎01-28-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

You should all know that as I was crafting my rather torturous post above, Jhuygut beat me to it--only said it in a shorter, better way. :smileywink:
Frequent Contributor
dcsbelle
Posts: 1,041
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

Nadine,

I liked your speculation on how magic comes from all muggle families; perhaps that also explains why some magical parents produce squibs.

Debbie



Nadine wrote:

Leprechaun72 wrote:
I think the key word was "probably". We are not sure they are the only 2 parselmouths. Riddle was just speculating. However, there are many things that they do have in common. It is an interesting parallel to observe. Sort of like good and evil being mirror images.

I do think that HP is only a Parselmouth because of the power transferred to him by Voldemort's attack. As Dumbledore explains later to HP, the attack on HP's family not only killed them off, but left something of Voldemort with him. Since we really don't know much of James Potter's family history, we can't be certain that it was not inherited, but I don't think it was.




I wonder about Lily and her green eyes and if this could be a link to the Slytherin line. I would think to be magical a person would have to inherit some magic genes. I can't see how a magical person can just suddenly be born to a totally Muggle family, so I would assume that magic abilities is kind of a recessive gene. Two Muggles who both have recessive magic genes could produce a magical child while other children might not be Magical at all (but could or could not carry the recessive Magic gene to future generations). I don't want to get into wild speculation in this group (maybe I'll post this in the other one) but it could explain some things.

Also, when Harry heard the snake it was in the wall and not even the hissing was heard by anyone. I wonder if there is a telepathic ability between snakes and parselmouths. The snake at the zoo in SS was also behind glass when Harry first talked to it.

Nadine


Debbie

Hedwig is not really dead; it was all just a big misunderstanding
Frequent Contributor
zandyr83
Posts: 64
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

I don't believe that Lily has a link to Slytherin. She was like Hermione, I can't think of the proper name. a witch born to a muggle family. I have a hard time believing that with all the power Slytherin had, it would have taken so long for someone to show up with strong powers, even if it were a recessive gene. I am very curious about the link between parselmouths and snakes that you mentioned. I have always assumed that if you speak "snake", you would share a connection. Does this make any sense or am I just jumping to conclusions?
Zandyr
Frequent Contributor
zandyr83
Posts: 64
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

I can't help but feel that Jjuygut's point simply goes back to how one was raised. Harry was treated subservient and therefore always second guessses himself. He needs to know that what he does is acceptable and right by those who come to mean the most to him- his friends. Voldermort, as Jhuygut points out, has isolated himself. But I believe that that is becasue he has been neglected. Instead of finding comfort in those around him who also are powerful, Tom falls into his "own world", where he controls everything. There are two reasons for this. If he is the best, who can deny him anything. His father denied him love after finding out he was a wizard. Anything that is denied therefore, he can simply create for himself. Moreover, he can exercise his control over others in various situations. By haing the power over others, he cannot be hurt or abondoned again. Think about how he reacts later in the series to those who abondon him?!

Is there anyone else who thinks Voldermort's evil ways are going back to his father. In hurting others, he is getting back at all the person who hurt him. DD says that it was Lily's love that saved Harry in PoA. Could it be that V tries to destroy all forms of the love he never had?
Zandyr
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!



zandyr83 wrote:
I can't help but feel that Jjuygut's point simply goes back to how one was raised. Harry was treated subservient and therefore always second guessses himself. He needs to know that what he does is acceptable and right by those who come to mean the most to him- his friends. Voldermort, as Jhuygut points out, has isolated himself. But I believe that that is becasue he has been neglected. Instead of finding comfort in those around him who also are powerful, Tom falls into his "own world", where he controls everything. There are two reasons for this. If he is the best, who can deny him anything. His father denied him love after finding out he was a wizard. Anything that is denied therefore, he can simply create for himself. Moreover, he can exercise his control over others in various situations. By haing the power over others, he cannot be hurt or abondoned again. Think about how he reacts later in the series to those who abondon him?!

Is there anyone else who thinks Voldermort's evil ways are going back to his father. In hurting others, he is getting back at all the person who hurt him. DD says that it was Lily's love that saved Harry in PoA. Could it be that V tries to destroy all forms of the love he never had?




Very good analysis! Harry at least had a family--though a pretty terrible family. He also had the experience of social--or better anti-social, relationships that helped build his character. Maybe Vernon served a good purpose. Harry ignored his "magic gift" thinking it was wrong and perverted. Tom was a loaner. He discovered early that he had the "magic gift", though not recognizing it for what it was, and it gave him power. His social relationships were non-existent. Harry later on made friends and established relationships while Tom always remained a loner never trusting anyone. Trust and reliance on friends seems to be a major theme in these books and I'm sure will, and have, play an important role in the final part of the series. Oddly enough, Tom was probably better treated in his youth than Harry.

Nadine
Contributor
Jhuygut
Posts: 25
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

In response to Zandyr83 and the idea that is how you are raised, I think there is some truth but there is some matter of choice as well. Harry being neglected probably does lead to some insecurities but he has different ways he could respond. One response is to get in with the right people and value their insights to build up security in what you do, the other is to align yourself with power so that you can feel secure. Harry clearly picks one and not the other in his rejection of Malfoy in SS.
Contributor
aluna
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎01-26-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

This is a definite SPOILER!
Voldemort was born and brought into the world as a lie as told in the HPB. His mom bewitched his father, inturn creating a lie and a "fake" life which Voldemort was brought into. When the truth was told his whole life was ripped out from under him, and of course he hated all those who caused it. Harry on the other hand was brought into the world by his loving parents and then evil is what changed his life changed him forever, but he did not know the truth while growing up. Of course he hated the fact that he lost his parents, but he didn't know why until he was much older. Harry and Voldemort both led bad childhoods, but Voldemort was just so full of hate for what caused his, while Harry just accepted his situation and tried to live his life for what it was. I think that is one major thing that seperates them and their outlook on life.

Ashley
Contributor
potterd
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎01-28-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!

I came up with a wild thought while working on SS. Maybe the color green leads to Voldemort. Slytherin's colors are green (which is the house that Voldemort was in), the ink on the letter to Hogwarts was written in green (which led to him meeting Voldemort for the second time), the smoke in the vault at Gringotts was green (the vault contained the stone which brought Harry in contact with Voldemort), and Lilly's eyes are green (she gave her life to Voldemort in place of Harry). I've only read all of the books once and as I re-read them, I find a lot that I missed the first time, so I'm not sure if this is actually true throughout. But so far, if it is green, it will either lead directly to Voldemort, or will do something that will eventually direct Harry to him.

-Diane
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle Spoiler Alert!



potterd wrote:
I came up with a wild thought while working on SS. Maybe the color green leads to Voldemort. Slytherin's colors are green (which is the house that Voldemort was in), the ink on the letter to Hogwarts was written in green (which led to him meeting Voldemort for the second time), the smoke in the vault at Gringotts was green (the vault contained the stone which brought Harry in contact with Voldemort), and Lilly's eyes are green (she gave her life to Voldemort in place of Harry). I've only read all of the books once and as I re-read them, I find a lot that I missed the first time, so I'm not sure if this is actually true throughout. But so far, if it is green, it will either lead directly to Voldemort, or will do something that will eventually direct Harry to him.

-Diane




I think you are on to a connection here. I think JKR uses "pointers" that say this is significant, and I think you are right--the color green points to a Voldemort/Slytherin connection. I keep thinking there is more of a connection of Lily (and thereby Harry) to Voldemort because of the green eyes (though Voldemort himself seems to have red eyes). JKR certainly keeps bringing them up. When Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised, he not only saw that his mother had green eyes but that other people in the Mirror also had green eyes. I don't think there is a connection of her to Voldemort but maybe to the Slytherin line. ****Minor Spoiler***Like the Black family, the Slytherin line probably ahd their "good" and "bad" people and some (most likely taken off the family tree like the Blacks) probably intermixed with Muggles.

Nadine
Contributor
LadyDallas
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎02-10-2007
0 Kudos

Tom and Harry...be warned..it is long!

If I were to take every preposted quote that has struck a gong with me, This post would never get finished.
Tom: a child born because of deceit...daddy was the heir of well-off family; Mom wanted a better life or was she in love? Do we know who did the deceiving? Tom's father, from what I read, was a man who took as much advantage of girls as he could. 'nuff said there.
There is a bit of a parallel among Potter's yearmates. Seamus Finnegan:"Irish boy with sandy hair, he is a Half-blood: his father is a Muggle, and his mother didn't tell his dad that she was a witch until after they were married, which was a "bit of a nasty shock for him." --Harry Potter Lexicon.
Seamus' father stayed the course, allowing love to make all things possible.
In a small village, everyone knows everyone else's business, and harsh judgements are made. Often kindness isn't in it. It is doubtful that Tom was ever allowed to forget his origins,even in the orphanage. We assume he knew his mother's love for a short while, but she became ill, and died. Could he have inherited his father's Arrogance? Yes, it is as inheritible as Blue eye vs Brown. As is Magic. Remember, Blue is a recessive gene.
Harry has some of the same situation, although he grows up knowing that neither parent abandoned him. That makes a difference. Yet the bottom line is that Harry and Tom both make a choice. THEY chose how they would deal with life.
Okay...didn't mean to write a book here! I will let the rest go. :smileyhappy:
Contributor
feenix
Posts: 8
Registered: ‎02-05-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Harry and Tom Riddle

Not sure if this is the best place, it sort of fits this thread.

But I sometimes find it hard to compare Harry to LV because while LV was "Top of his Class", Prefect, head boy, and lots more from what I remember. Harry isn't any of those things. Sometimes it's almost hard to take with the only thing it seems Harry is REALLY good at, is Quidditch. His dad learned how to become an animagus on his own during his time at Hogwarts and from all reports was a very good Wizard. We don't see much of this in Harry. Sure his Patronus is showing of a more advanced level of wizardry than he should have given his age and training. But he seems to be lacking in some areas that cause him to just not match up with LV.

but maybe I'm just being critical of harry.

:Luke
Users Online
Currently online: 100 members 631 guests
Please welcome our newest community members: