Problems of Prejudice

[Rachel-K]

We learn in Chamber of Secrets that Slytherin was a promoter of racial discrimination in Hogwarts' admissions. He wanted only wizards from "pure blood" families to be allowed in, witches and wizards with no Muggle ancestry at all.

How important is the theme of working against prejudice in the novels? How does the physical portrayal of some of the characters complicate this?

Which characters, if any, have you misjudged in your first exposure to them?

[PrincessOrual]

It's interesting that Voldemort AND Snape are mixed blood and yet they both want only pure bloods allowed in Hogwarts. Even more interesting is that Slytherin wanted only pure bloods and Voldemort and Snape were both in Slytherin. I was suprised that Snape was mixed blood.

My other question is this: When does the line become 'magical' and no longer 'muggle'. Say, for instance, if Hermione and Ron marry, are their children still considered mixed? She's a witch, he's a wizard.

Message Edited by PrincessOrual on 02-06-200703:22 PM

[Leprechaun72]

I did some reading about pure blood, since you asked and I was curious about the same thing. Apparently, there is a finite number of pure bloods. It is kind of like royalty. They seem to be ancient families that inter-marry a lot. Anyway, I went to the HP lexicon site (address below). Even if two members of the wizarding community marry and have offspring, it does not necessarily mean they automatically become pure blood. Hope this helps.

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html

[Jhuygut]

I think Voldemort and Snape both present an interesting side to issues with prejudice. Both of them are so strongly opposed to those of mixed blood because they are ashamed of it in themselves. Often hate comes out of things we have fears of or are ashamed of in ourselves. Obviously they are exceptions but it is something to consider when we see hate around us.

[jftapia88]

Their kids would be half like Harry, his dad was pure and his mom was muggle-born. It is one of the similarities that Harry and Voldemort share.

[aluna]

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Jhuygut wrote:
I think Voldemort and Snape both present an interesting side to issues with prejudice. Both of them are so strongly opposed to those of mixed blood because they are ashamed of it in themselves. Often hate comes out of things we have fears of or are ashamed of in ourselves. Obviously they are exceptions but it is something to consider when we see hate around us.

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I completely agree with you and I think one reason they are so strongly against anyone but pure bloods is because they blame their parents for a lot of things. Voldemort blames his mom and dad for what they did, and in that hatred he hates anyone like them (even though that technically includes him) he wants to rid the world of them. And by doing that he is proving to the pure blood community that he can be worthy to them. We see the same stuff in society today, and I think that they way JK brought this issue into her book is great.

[Cahill42]

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PrincessOrual wrote:
It's interesting that Voldemort AND Snape are mixed blood and yet they both want only pure bloods allowed in Hogwarts. Even more interesting is that Slytherin wanted only pure bloods and Voldemort and Snape were both in Slytherin. I was suprised that Snape was mixed blood.

My other question is this: When does the line become 'magical' and no longer 'muggle'. Say, for instance, if Hermione and Ron marry, are their children still considered mixed? She's a witch, he's a wizard.

Message Edited by PrincessOrual on 02-06-200703:22 PM

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There is a strong corallory between Slytherin and Voldemort insisting on "pure bloods" being admitted to Hogwarts, and Hilter's Aryan race program. Anyone who has seen a picture of Hilter knows that he did NOT meet the blue-eyed, blonde-haired ideal that he wanted for the "master race." This could be where JKR got her inspiration for the hypocrisy. I'm not 100% certain that Snape has this same prejudice, as he (according to Dumbledore) is not a Death Eater/evil/Voldemort's lackey, although I will admit that one could be prejudiced against non-pure bloods and not be a Death Eater/evil/Voldemort's lackey.

I think that it comes down to the fact that prejudice--in any form--doesn't make sense and is, in and of itself, a huge hypocrisy. I think that this is one of the things that JKR tries to portray throughout all the HP books.

[patz12gal]

The idea of prejudice is introduced from the very beginnings of the series, namely in the first few chapters of the Sorcerers Stone when we learn in "Keeper of the Keys" of the Dursley's true feelings of ignorance, unacceptance and prejudice against the wizarding kind.

We don't even have to wait until we see the pureblood/mudblood divisions in CoS because JKR does a great job of bringing the theme about in the first few chapters she ever wrote.

[lacalladita]

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rkubie wrote:
We learn in Chamber of Secrets that Slytherin was a promoter of racial discrimination in Hogwarts' admissions. He wanted only wizards from "pure blood" families to be allowed in, witches and wizards with no Muggle ancestry at all.

How important is the theme of working against prejudice in the novels? How does the physical portrayal of some of the characters complicate this?

Which characters, if any, have you misjudged in your first exposure to them?

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In the beginning of SS, I believed, as Harry does, that Snape is no good and on Voldemort's side. But, as I kept reading SS and then COS, I don't think that Snape is on Voldemort's side anymore. I think he is part of Dumbledore's plan on training Harry for the big fight that will inevitably happen between Harry and Voldemort. Snape saved Harry during the quidditch match during SS, told the class about the polyjuice potion and where to find it (pg. 159, paperback) and how to disarm wizards (pg. 190, paperback).

[dcsbelle]

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lacalladita wrote:

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rkubie wrote:
We learn in Chamber of Secrets that Slytherin was a promoter of racial discrimination in Hogwarts' admissions. He wanted only wizards from "pure blood" families to be allowed in, witches and wizards with no Muggle ancestry at all.

How important is the theme of working against prejudice in the novels? How does the physical portrayal of some of the characters complicate this?

Which characters, if any, have you misjudged in your first exposure to them?

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In the beginning of SS, I believed, as Harry does, that Snape is no good and on Voldemort's side. But, as I kept reading SS and then COS, I don't think that Snape is on Voldemort's side anymore. I think he is part of Dumbledore's plan on training Harry for the big fight that will inevitably happen between Harry and Voldemort. Snape saved Harry during the quidditch match during SS, told the class about the polyjuice potion and where to find it (pg. 159, paperback) and how to disarm wizards (pg. 190, paperback).

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Congratulations, lacalladita, you are now an official member of the Severus Snape fan club which boasts a bevy of female posters from the Waiting for Harry boards. I too believe he's on the right side although my heart belongs to a certain character in book three. And if you want to learn about the value of first impressions that's THE book to read. Nuff said!

Debbie

[lacalladita]

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dcsbelle wrote:

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lacalladita wrote:

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Congratulations, lacalladita, you are now an official member of the Severus Snape fan club which boasts a bevy of female posters from the Waiting for Harry boards. I too believe he's on the right side although my heart belongs to a certain character in book three. And if you want to learn about the value of first impressions that's THE book to read. Nuff said!

Debbie

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It's true that Year 3 plays heavily on the first impressions but you can find it also in Years 1 & 2. In Year 1, his first impressions of Hagrid, Malfoy, and the Weasleys are dead on. In Year 2, his first impression of Lucius and Lockhart are also dead on. But, his first impression of Hermione was wrong since they end up being the best of friends. Then you wonder about his first impression of Snape. Is he wrong or right?

[maggie21]

Harry is blinded by how he feels about snape,because of how snape deals with him in the begening,then as the story progresses,Harry can't stand him because he learns of the history he shared with his father.Snape is a true Slythrin,ambitious,looks out for number one, himself.I don't think Snape has choosen a side,yet.He's a fox,that one,but i think we will finally find out about his true loyalities with Harry in book 7.

[dcsbelle]

Lacalladita wrote:

It's true that Year 3 plays heavily on the first impressions but you can find it also in Years 1 & 2. In Year 1, his first impressions of Hagrid, Malfoy, and the Weasleys are dead on. In Year 2, his first impression of Lucius and Lockhart are also dead on. But, his first impression of Hermione was wrong since they end up being the best of friends. Then you wonder about his first impression of Snape. Is he wrong or right?

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Okay, so I see you're not an "ickle firstie" to the HP books! I guess JKR wants to keep us on our toes regarding the true loyalties of her characters. Personally, I think Snape is on the good side although he and Harry genuinely loathe each other. If you've been following the Waiting for Harry boards the true motives of almost the entire faculty is suspect due to the posted suspicions of our dear, crazy Patty. We'll all know the truth in another five months.

Debbie

[lacalladita]

No, I'm not an "ickle firstie". LOL! I have been trying to keep up with the other board. I came rather late in the game so I decided to read through them first and post my two cents afterwards. It's time consuming to say the least. I do agree with you that Snape and Harry loathe each other. No one ever said that you have to like each other to be on the same side. Harry thinking that Snape is on Voldemort's side is both a positive and a negative. It's a positive because it will give Snape room to do what he needs to do that would be against Voldemort and give him creditability with Voldemort. It's a negative because Harry might foil Snape's plans which will hamper the fight against Voldemort.


Lacalladita wrote:
It's true that Year 3 plays heavily on the first impressions but you can find it also in Years 1 & 2. In Year 1, his first impressions of Hagrid, Malfoy, and the Weasleys are dead on. In Year 2, his first impression of Lucius and Lockhart are also dead on. But, his first impression of Hermione was wrong since they end up being the best of friends. Then you wonder about his first impression of Snape. Is he wrong or right?

dcsbelle:
Okay, so I see you're not an "ickle firstie" to the HP books! I guess JKR wants to keep us on our toes regarding the true loyalties of her characters. Personally, I think Snape is on the good side although he and Harry genuinely loathe each other. If you've been following the Waiting for Harry boards the true motives of almost the entire faculty is suspect due to the posted suspicions of our dear, crazy Patty. We'll all know the truth in another five months.

Debbie

Message Edited by lacalladita on 02-20-200703:31 PM

[patz12gal]

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maggie21 wrote:
Harry is blinded by how he feels about snape,because of how snape deals with him in the begening,then as the story progresses,Harry can't stand him because he learns of the history he shared with his father.Snape is a true Slythrin,ambitious,looks out for number one, himself.I don't think Snape has choosen a side,yet.He's a fox,that one,but i think we will finally find out about his true loyalities with Harry in book 7.

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My personal theory is that Snape was in love with Lily and that's why he hated James Potter even more than if James/Sirius/Lupin had just tormented him at Hogwarts. That's also why Snape has continually saved Harry and not just in the obvious way to "save" someone...he's been constantly keeping tabs on Harry, whether we know it or it's just a "coincidence" he drops little hints that essentially help the trio in their adventures...he uses the occlumency lessons as yet another way to read Harry' mind and thus protect him.

Plus I can't help coming back to the connection to Lily's eyes. In practically every single book, JKR makes mention of Harry having the same eyes as Lily. In book seven I think we're going to find out just how important that really is...also, I think when Snape sees Harry, he sees a little part of Lily each time, thus reminding him where his loyalties truly lie.

I'll even be as bold to predict Snape dies in book seven in an effort to save Harry.

Any thoughts???

[lacalladita]

I also thought Snape was in love with Lily. He hated James because Lily was in love with him and not Snape. He can't help seeing Lily when he looks at Harry but he also can't help seeing James in Harry which will lend a hand to why Snape hates Harry so much. Snape has so much displaced anger that he can't help but take it out on Harry.

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patz12gal wrote:

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maggie21 wrote:
Harry is blinded by how he feels about snape,because of how snape deals with him in the begening,then as the story progresses,Harry can't stand him because he learns of the history he shared with his father.Snape is a true Slythrin,ambitious,looks out for number one, himself.I don't think Snape has choosen a side,yet.He's a fox,that one,but i think we will finally find out about his true loyalities with Harry in book 7.

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My personal theory is that Snape was in love with Lily and that's why he hated James Potter even more than if James/Sirius/Lupin had just tormented him at Hogwarts. That's also why Snape has continually saved Harry and not just in the obvious way to "save" someone...he's been constantly keeping tabs on Harry, whether we know it or it's just a "coincidence" he drops little hints that essentially help the trio in their adventures...he uses the occlumency lessons as yet another way to read Harry' mind and thus protect him.

Plus I can't help coming back to the connection to Lily's eyes. In practically every single book, JKR makes mention of Harry having the same eyes as Lily. In book seven I think we're going to find out just how important that really is...also, I think when Snape sees Harry, he sees a little part of Lily each time, thus reminding him where his loyalties truly lie.

I'll even be as bold to predict Snape dies in book seven in an effort to save Harry.

Any thoughts???

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[dcsbelle]

We can only hope that Harry's extreme dislike of Snape doesn't lead him into trouble. If he ignores Snape or deliberately circumvents him he may fall right into Voldy's web. Especially when you're so young it's easy to ignore good advice just because you don't like the author of it.

[patz12gal]

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dcsbelle wrote:
We can only hope that Harry's extreme dislike of Snape doesn't lead him into trouble. If he ignores Snape or deliberately circumvents him he may fall right into Voldy's web. Especially when you're so young it's easy to ignore good advice just because you don't like the author of it.

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SPOILER>>>> Even when we hear Dumbledore saying "Severus, please..." in HBP it's because he's pleading not for Snape to save him, but to in fact do what Snape ended up doing because it was what was supposed to happen. It will be interesting to see how Snape's promise to Draco's mother will play out, seeing as how he promsied to protect Draco, but since Draco is now caught up with LV and his followers, it's just another way Snape provides protection in an unobvious way.

I agree, I think it'll have to come down to Harry truly believing that Snape was/is acting under Dumbledore's orders. Right now, he's at the point where he hasn't trusted Snape the past six years and his hatred was given another (the first being Bellatrix in OOtP) focal point in Snape thanks to the HBP events. Somehow he has to realize-and will-what's Snape's true motivations are...

[patz12gal]

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lacalladita wrote:
I also thought Snape was in love with Lily. He hated James because Lily was in love with him and not Snape. He can't help seeing Lily when he looks at Harry but he also can't help seeing James in Harry which will lend a hand to why Snape hates Harry so much. Snape has so much displaced anger that he can't help but take it out on Harry.

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patz12gal wrote:

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maggie21 wrote:
Harry is blinded by how he feels about snape,because of how snape deals with him in the begening,then as the story progresses,Harry can't stand him because he learns of the history he shared with his father.Snape is a true Slythrin,ambitious,looks out for number one, himself.I don't think Snape has choosen a side,yet.He's a fox,that one,but i think we will finally find out about his true loyalities with Harry in book 7.

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My personal theory is that Snape was in love with Lily and that's why he hated James Potter even more than if James/Sirius/Lupin had just tormented him at Hogwarts. That's also why Snape has continually saved Harry and not just in the obvious way to "save" someone...he's been constantly keeping tabs on Harry, whether we know it or it's just a "coincidence" he drops little hints that essentially help the trio in their adventures...he uses the occlumency lessons as yet another way to read Harry' mind and thus protect him.

Plus I can't help coming back to the connection to Lily's eyes. In practically every single book, JKR makes mention of Harry having the same eyes as Lily. In book seven I think we're going to find out just how important that really is...also, I think when Snape sees Harry, he sees a little part of Lily each time, thus reminding him where his loyalties truly lie.

I'll even be as bold to predict Snape dies in book seven in an effort to save Harry.

Any thoughts???

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I don't necassarily think Snape Hates Harry, that's too strong for how Snape feels towards Harry. Hate is such a powerful emotion and I don't think Snape would've been able to do anything in favor of Harry if he really hated him, ie. showing up at opportune times in CoS, dropping tidbits of helpful info for the trio, etc. If he hated Harry, I don't think anything positive would have come from Snape to Harry-be in something huge or something small.

SPOILER...I don't even think Harry hates him until the final chapters of HBP. It's this idea that Harry can't face LV until he can identify with him. LV is driven by hatred and evil, hence why he can take lives so commonly. Up until the events in OOtP and HBP, Harry had no idea what it was like to feel that emotion, thus giving LV the upper-hand...in book seven, Harry has experienced true anger and hatred because of the losses he's suffered and will be able to channel that when he faces LV..the difference will be Harry can also act due to love, whereas LV can't.

But, I digress, getting back to my original thought...Snape is simply an angry soul, he's been picked on as a child, who knows what his childhood was like (although, that would be interesting to read about) and he's not that pleasant to anyone, really. If you think about it, he's the quintisential grouch, but to a higher extent...his anger comes out on everyone: the students (unless they're a Slytherin)-especially the trio, especially Harry- heck, he's even grumpy to the faculty.

Completely loathed James and his friends, yes, Very angry and extremely bitter about James and Lily, yes...but does that translate to hating Harry? I don't think so.

[PrincessOrual]

I do think Snape loathes Harry, as much for what he represents as for whose child he is. It makes sense that Lily would have been an object of affection for Snape, but a disgusting one since she was Muggle-born. For me, the jury is still out on Snape. I hope he is with the good guys, but I wonder.