SS - Chapters 16-17: Trial and Resolution - SPOILERS

[Nadine]

Lets talk about the book ending here so we don't spoil it for the first time readers

I have noticed that all the books follow a pattern. The pattern is the clearest in the first book and I think will have even more relevance as we move through the series.

1. There is the pre-Hogwart's section, usually at Privet Drive. Here we usually get some idea of the "problem" that Harry must deal with, see him change a bit, and are introduced to some new characters.

2. At Hogwarts the is some character development as the kids mature, we get a new Defence Against the Arts teacher (who is usually very relevant to the plot and the task Harry must ultimately face), more new characters, and we are introduced to the task or test that Harry must deal with in this book.

3. Toward the latter part of the middle section we get some new information to help us ultimately discover the mystery of the series and we learn more about the problem Harry must deal with.

4. Harry must go through his "trial" and solve the task of the book. This "trial" or test often includes Ron and Hermione for they seem to following Harry's initiation as well.

5. At the end of the task, Harry learns a lesson from Dumbledore and returns to Privet Drive.

Numbers 4 and 5 are what make up the final two chapters in SS. The pattern is very clearly indicated in this first book but will appear in all the later books with some variation.

Nadine

[Nadine]

Through the Trap Door

This is the usual "Decent to the Underworld" that Harry (and usually his friends) must undertake to go through their trial in each book. When Harry, Ron and Hermione go through the trap door what they encounter are not so much obstacles to prevent entry as they are puzzles to be solved to allow entry. The entrance (trap door) is guarded by a three-headed dog. This is a very obvious mythic reference to Cerberus, a mythic three-headed dog who is the guardian of the Underworld. In the story of Orpheus, Orpheus gets by Cerberus by lulling him to sleep with music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus


Part of the test requires the assistance of Ron or Hermione which makes it also a lesson in reliance on friends. Each exhibits their strong points with each test and these skills will probably be important for the future tests in the series.

Test 1 - The Three-Headed Dog. Hagrid's contribution that Harry lulls to sleep with the Flute.

Test 2 - The Devil's Snare - This is Professor Sprout's contribution and it is up to Hermione with her vast knowledge of magic to solve the problem with fire.

Test 3 - Flying Keys - This is the problem presented by Professor Flitwick. The task is to catch the door key they need among thousands flying keys. Harry mounts the broomstick and, using his superior skill as a flyer, catches the right key so the trio can continue.

Test 4 - The Chess Game - This is Professor McGonagall's contribution. Ron must show is skill as a chess player to get them through the game to the other side.

Test 5 - The Troll - This is Professor Quirrell's contribution. The Troll has already been dealt with so it is no problem. Maybe this is a false test anyway or maybe it refers to the test of friendship that the trio went through last Halloween.

Test 6 - The Potions - This is Professor Snapes contribution. Some of the potions are poisonous and one will allow one person final entry to the last test. But first a Riddle must be solved and this is handled by Heromione and her superior analytical abilities.

Test 7 - The Mirror or Erised. This is Dumbledore's contribution. He has already prepared Harry for this test. This is the final test and the one that Harry, as the hero of the series, always has to face alone.

Note: There are seven tests! Numbers are very important in this series and the number seven is especially important as we will discover as we proceed through the reading. There are even seven books representing Harry's seven years at Hogwarts.


Nadine

[Nadine]

Hagrid gives away information on how to get past Fluffy when he is given drinks, offered a dragon egg, and asked about the special animals he has. Hagrid tends to be very naive and accidentally gives away information throughout this book and others. The interesting thing about this encounter, though, is that he (and we) do not know who this mysterious dragon dealer is. Quirrell openly admit to Harry all his participation in what happened before but he doesn't take credit for being this person. I don't have any thoughts at this time but as we go forward, we might want to make a Remembrall note about a stranger in the Hoghead.

Nadine

[Nadine]

The more I read this book, the more convinced I am that Dumbledore is controlling all the circumstances and is deliberately training and testing Harry. There are some things to note:


--------Some Spoilers but I'm being vague enough that it should not ruin anything for future readers-----------------

Pg 215 - He indicates "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." This indicates that he can be present more than we know. I wonder if somehow he wasn't present during or just after the attack on the Potters. As we will find out as we go along, he seems to have a lot of information about it, yet to our knowledge, no one was there, except baby Harry, to witness it, and as we will find out later, it was hidden so even a great wizard like Voldemort (and Dumbledore) would have needed special information to find it. Ad how did Hagrid find out about it and find it?

----


pg 214 - There has been some discussion in the group that Dumbledore may sometimes lie. I wish I had this information before rereading the SS and would have watched more closely for it. We tend to take information from Dumbledore as gospel but he can lie, mis-lead, hide information and he can be just wrong. When Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, he says he is holding a pair of socks. (Now remember socks might be an important information indicator) but then Harry thinks:

"It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful."

I don't think there is a "throw-away" sentence in this whole book. Every sentence has significance.

---

My feeling is that Dumbledore did "guide" Harry into all that happened in this book and here are some others.

- Dumbledore made sure Harry got the invisibility cloak AND when Harry forgot it in the Astronomy Tower he made sure Harry got it back.

- Hagrid seem to drop (accidentally) a lot of important information. Probably at Dumbledore's bidding.

- Hagrid took Harry into the forbidden forest to look for the Unicorn. That seems like a strange and dangerous detention. Could that have been planned as a means for Harry to encounter Voldemort?

- As I mentioned elsewhere, the barriers that were put up to protect the Stone seemed more like tests (and had solutions) specifically designed by teachers to test the abilities of the trio.

- Dumbledore was conveniently not present at the time the trio felt they had to go through the Trap Door. A bit more below.

pg 297 - "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore sounding quite delighted. "You did do the thing properly, didn't you?" That sounds like a statement from someone who had planned the whole thing.

And then on page 302:

"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round--that took a while--and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall-he already knew--he just said, 'Harry's gone after him, hadn't he?' and hurled off to the third floor."

"D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. Sending you you father's cloak and everything?"

"Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did--I mean to say--that's terrible--you could have been killed." [I am developing a lot of confidence in Hermione's judgment and this reaction might be worth noting.]

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He is a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It is almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."

Harry was only eleven years old and this was a lot of danger to put him in. Especially if during their conversation (pg 298-299), when Harry ask why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, Dumbledore says that Harry is not old enough to know that information!

It is the deliberate manipulation that seems out of place. We will learn more as we continue through the series but I think if we pay attention we may find more questionable information about Dumbledore. And we still don't know a lot by the sixth book.

Nadine

[dedaviswright]

---

Nadine wrote:
The more I read this book, the more convinced I am that Dumbledore is controlling all the circumstances and is deliberately training and testing Harry. There are some things to note:


--------Some Spoilers but I'm being vague enough that it should not ruin anything for future readers-----------------

Pg 215 - He indicates "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." This indicates that he can be present more than we know. I wonder if somehow he wasn't present during or just after the attack on the Potters. As we will find out as we go along, he seems to have a lot of information about it, yet to our knowledge, no one was there, except baby Harry, to witness it, and as we will find out later, it was hidden so even a great wizard like Voldemort (and Dumbledore) would have needed special information to find it. Ad how did Hagrid find out about it and find it?

----


pg 214 - There has been some discussion in the group that Dumbledore may sometimes lie. I wish I had this information before rereading the SS and would have watched more closely for it. We tend to take information from Dumbledore as gospel but he can lie, mis-lead, hide information and he can be just wrong. When Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, he says he is holding a pair of socks. (Now remember socks might be an important information indicator) but then Harry thinks:

"It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful."

I don't think there is a "throw-away" sentence in this whole book. Every sentence has significance.

---

My feeling is that Dumbledore did "guide" Harry into all that happened in this book and here are some others.

- Dumbledore made sure Harry got the invisibility cloak AND when Harry forgot it in the Astronomy Tower he made sure Harry got it back.

- Hagrid seem to drop (accidentally) a lot of important information. Probably at Dumbledore's bidding.

- Hagrid took Harry into the forbidden forest to look for the Unicorn. That seems like a strange and dangerous detention. Could that have been planned as a means for Harry to encounter Voldemort?

- As I mentioned elsewhere, the barriers that were put up to protect the Stone seemed more like tests (and had solutions) specifically designed by teachers to test the abilities of the trio.

- Dumbledore was conveniently not present at the time the trio felt they had to go through the Trap Door. A bit more below.

pg 297 - "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore sounding quite delighted. "You did do the thing properly, didn't you?" That sounds like a statement from someone who had planned the whole thing.

And then on page 302:

"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round--that took a while--and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall-he already knew--he just said, 'Harry's gone after him, hadn't he?' and hurled off to the third floor."

"D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. Sending you you father's cloak and everything?"

"Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did--I mean to say--that's terrible--you could have been killed." [I am developing a lot of confidence in Hermione's judgment and this reaction might be worth noting.]

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He is a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It is almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."

Harry was only eleven years old and this was a lot of danger to put him in. Especially if during their conversation (pg 298-299), when Harry ask why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, Dumbledore says that Harry is not old enough to know that information!

It is the deliberate manipulation that seems out of place. We will learn more as we continue through the series but I think if we pay attention we may find more questionable information about Dumbledore. And we still don't know a lot by the sixth book.

Nadine

---

I totally agree with you. I believe the events were orcastrated carefully around the "teachings and preparing" for Harry's future. Dumbledore seemed to be in full control and even though there were dangers, Harry had been given all the friends (were they deliberate), circumstances and information he needed to complete the tasks in SS.

[Leprechaun72]

I have to agree that Dumbledore seems to be "training" HP through the book for coming face to face with Quirrel/Voldemort. He seems to guide HP in tasks that either lead to skill development or new knowledge about the situation at hand. Has it crossed anyone else's mind that if Dumbledore is this much in charge, he couldn't possibly not know that the Defense Against the Dark Arts teach was not who he seemed to be? Perhaps this is a training session for some clandestine future event that will not take place at Hogwarts, but someplace off the campus where Harry does not have Dumbledore's protection. What do you all think?

[redwing480]

---

Nadine wrote:
The more I read this book, the more convinced I am that Dumbledore is controlling all the circumstances and is deliberately training and testing Harry. There are some things to note:


--------Some Spoilers but I'm being vague enough that it should not ruin anything for future readers-----------------

Pg 215 - He indicates "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." This indicates that he can be present more than we know. I wonder if somehow he wasn't present during or just after the attack on the Potters. As we will find out as we go along, he seems to have a lot of information about it, yet to our knowledge, no one was there, except baby Harry, to witness it, and as we will find out later, it was hidden so even a great wizard like Voldemort (and Dumbledore) would have needed special information to find it. Ad how did Hagrid find out about it and find it?

----


pg 214 - There has been some discussion in the group that Dumbledore may sometimes lie. I wish I had this information before rereading the SS and would have watched more closely for it. We tend to take information from Dumbledore as gospel but he can lie, mis-lead, hide information and he can be just wrong. When Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, he says he is holding a pair of socks. (Now remember socks might be an important information indicator) but then Harry thinks:

"It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful."

I don't think there is a "throw-away" sentence in this whole book. Every sentence has significance.

---

My feeling is that Dumbledore did "guide" Harry into all that happened in this book and here are some others.

- Dumbledore made sure Harry got the invisibility cloak AND when Harry forgot it in the Astronomy Tower he made sure Harry got it back.

- Hagrid seem to drop (accidentally) a lot of important information. Probably at Dumbledore's bidding.

- Hagrid took Harry into the forbidden forest to look for the Unicorn. That seems like a strange and dangerous detention. Could that have been planned as a means for Harry to encounter Voldemort?

- As I mentioned elsewhere, the barriers that were put up to protect the Stone seemed more like tests (and had solutions) specifically designed by teachers to test the abilities of the trio.

- Dumbledore was conveniently not present at the time the trio felt they had to go through the Trap Door. A bit more below.

pg 297 - "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore sounding quite delighted. "You did do the thing properly, didn't you?" That sounds like a statement from someone who had planned the whole thing.

And then on page 302:

"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round--that took a while--and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall-he already knew--he just said, 'Harry's gone after him, hadn't he?' and hurled off to the third floor."

"D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. Sending you you father's cloak and everything?"

"Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did--I mean to say--that's terrible--you could have been killed." [I am developing a lot of confidence in Hermione's judgment and this reaction might be worth noting.]

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He is a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It is almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."

Harry was only eleven years old and this was a lot of danger to put him in. Especially if during their conversation (pg 298-299), when Harry ask why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, Dumbledore says that Harry is not old enough to know that information!

It is the deliberate manipulation that seems out of place. We will learn more as we continue through the series but I think if we pay attention we may find more questionable information about Dumbledore. And we still don't know a lot by the sixth book.

Nadine

---

I agree with you on the fact that Dumbledore is controlling a lot, what happens when the kids go through the trap door illustrates this

1- Fluffy, Dumbledore knows that the kids are friends with Hagrid and probably knows that there is a good chance that they will get the needed information from Hagrid.

2-Devil's Snare, Hermione is the one who knows everything, or possibly DD could have put this test in for Neville(he's very good in herbology), and later he does play more important parts as the story goes on.Also, Neville would have followed them to try and stop them, except that Hermione cursed him. Perhaps DD is trying to teach Harry to look in less likely places for help.

3-Keys, there were broomsticks in this room and we know that Harry is an excellent flyer and seeker.

4-Chess, this is definitely one of Ron's strong points.

5-Troll, the troll was already knocked out, but the kids had already proven themselves against the troll earlier on.

6-Potions, Logic! Hermione says, "This isn't magic-it's logic-a puzzle-A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." This test is tailor made for Hermione.

7-Mirror of Erised, DD left the mirror long enough for Harry to realize how it worked and then explained it to him further.

These tasks play to the kid's strengths so perfectly, that it does seem that they were designed specifically.

[Nadine]

Excellent summary. I want to comment on one of your points:

----------------------------------------------------
2-Devil's Snare, Hermione is the one who knows everything, or possibly DD could have put this test in for Neville(he's very good in herbology), and later he does play more important parts as the story goes on.Also, Neville would have followed them to try and stop them, except that Hermione cursed him. Perhaps DD is trying to teach Harry to look in less likely places for help.
--------------------------------------------------

I hadn't thought abut this being planned for Neville and I think you are right. Hermione already had her test with the potions and this one was made for Neville. It all fits. At the end the the book Dumbledore rewards all four.

When I first read the series I totally overlooked Neville as a significant character until much later on in the series. He certainly was a planned major participant in the ultimate story. After Snape, Neville might turn out to be the most interesting and surprising character.

Nadine

---

redwing480 wrote:

---

Nadine wrote:
The more I read this book, the more convinced I am that Dumbledore is controlling all the circumstances and is deliberately training and testing Harry. There are some things to note:


--------Some Spoilers but I'm being vague enough that it should not ruin anything for future readers-----------------

Pg 215 - He indicates "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." This indicates that he can be present more than we know. I wonder if somehow he wasn't present during or just after the attack on the Potters. As we will find out as we go along, he seems to have a lot of information about it, yet to our knowledge, no one was there, except baby Harry, to witness it, and as we will find out later, it was hidden so even a great wizard like Voldemort (and Dumbledore) would have needed special information to find it. Ad how did Hagrid find out about it and find it?

----


pg 214 - There has been some discussion in the group that Dumbledore may sometimes lie. I wish I had this information before rereading the SS and would have watched more closely for it. We tend to take information from Dumbledore as gospel but he can lie, mis-lead, hide information and he can be just wrong. When Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, he says he is holding a pair of socks. (Now remember socks might be an important information indicator) but then Harry thinks:

"It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful."

I don't think there is a "throw-away" sentence in this whole book. Every sentence has significance.

---

My feeling is that Dumbledore did "guide" Harry into all that happened in this book and here are some others.

- Dumbledore made sure Harry got the invisibility cloak AND when Harry forgot it in the Astronomy Tower he made sure Harry got it back.

- Hagrid seem to drop (accidentally) a lot of important information. Probably at Dumbledore's bidding.

- Hagrid took Harry into the forbidden forest to look for the Unicorn. That seems like a strange and dangerous detention. Could that have been planned as a means for Harry to encounter Voldemort?

- As I mentioned elsewhere, the barriers that were put up to protect the Stone seemed more like tests (and had solutions) specifically designed by teachers to test the abilities of the trio.

- Dumbledore was conveniently not present at the time the trio felt they had to go through the Trap Door. A bit more below.

pg 297 - "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore sounding quite delighted. "You did do the thing properly, didn't you?" That sounds like a statement from someone who had planned the whole thing.

And then on page 302:

"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round--that took a while--and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall-he already knew--he just said, 'Harry's gone after him, hadn't he?' and hurled off to the third floor."

"D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. Sending you you father's cloak and everything?"

"Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did--I mean to say--that's terrible--you could have been killed." [I am developing a lot of confidence in Hermione's judgment and this reaction might be worth noting.]

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He is a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It is almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."

Harry was only eleven years old and this was a lot of danger to put him in. Especially if during their conversation (pg 298-299), when Harry ask why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, Dumbledore says that Harry is not old enough to know that information!

It is the deliberate manipulation that seems out of place. We will learn more as we continue through the series but I think if we pay attention we may find more questionable information about Dumbledore. And we still don't know a lot by the sixth book.

Nadine

---

I agree with you on the fact that Dumbledore is controlling a lot, what happens when the kids go through the trap door illustrates this

1- Fluffy, Dumbledore knows that the kids are friends with Hagrid and probably knows that there is a good chance that they will get the needed information from Hagrid.

2-Devil's Snare, Hermione is the one who knows everything, or possibly DD could have put this test in for Neville(he's very good in herbology), and later he does play more important parts as the story goes on.Also, Neville would have followed them to try and stop them, except that Hermione cursed him. Perhaps DD is trying to teach Harry to look in less likely places for help.

3-Keys, there were broomsticks in this room and we know that Harry is an excellent flyer and seeker.

4-Chess, this is definitely one of Ron's strong points.

5-Troll, the troll was already knocked out, but the kids had already proven themselves against the troll earlier on.

6-Potions, Logic! Hermione says, "This isn't magic-it's logic-a puzzle-A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." This test is tailor made for Hermione.

7-Mirror of Erised, DD left the mirror long enough for Harry to realize how it worked and then explained it to him further.

These tasks play to the kid's strengths so perfectly, that it does seem that they were designed specifically.

---

[redwing480]

---

Nadine wrote:
Excellent summary. I want to comment on one of your points:

----------------------------------------------------
2-Devil's Snare, Hermione is the one who knows everything, or possibly DD could have put this test in for Neville(he's very good in herbology), and later he does play more important parts as the story goes on.Also, Neville would have followed them to try and stop them, except that Hermione cursed him. Perhaps DD is trying to teach Harry to look in less likely places for help.
--------------------------------------------------

I hadn't thought abut this being planned for Neville and I think you are right. Hermione already had her test with the potions and this one was made for Neville. It all fits. At the end the the book Dumbledore rewards all four.

When I first read the series I totally overlooked Neville as a significant character until much later on in the series. He certainly was a planned major participant in the ultimate story. After Snape, Neville might turn out to be the most interesting and surprising character.

Nadine

---

redwing480 wrote:

---

Nadine wrote:
The more I read this book, the more convinced I am that Dumbledore is controlling all the circumstances and is deliberately training and testing Harry. There are some things to note:


--------Some Spoilers but I'm being vague enough that it should not ruin anything for future readers-----------------

Pg 215 - He indicates "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." This indicates that he can be present more than we know. I wonder if somehow he wasn't present during or just after the attack on the Potters. As we will find out as we go along, he seems to have a lot of information about it, yet to our knowledge, no one was there, except baby Harry, to witness it, and as we will find out later, it was hidden so even a great wizard like Voldemort (and Dumbledore) would have needed special information to find it. Ad how did Hagrid find out about it and find it?

----


pg 214 - There has been some discussion in the group that Dumbledore may sometimes lie. I wish I had this information before rereading the SS and would have watched more closely for it. We tend to take information from Dumbledore as gospel but he can lie, mis-lead, hide information and he can be just wrong. When Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, he says he is holding a pair of socks. (Now remember socks might be an important information indicator) but then Harry thinks:

"It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful."

I don't think there is a "throw-away" sentence in this whole book. Every sentence has significance.

---

My feeling is that Dumbledore did "guide" Harry into all that happened in this book and here are some others.

- Dumbledore made sure Harry got the invisibility cloak AND when Harry forgot it in the Astronomy Tower he made sure Harry got it back.

- Hagrid seem to drop (accidentally) a lot of important information. Probably at Dumbledore's bidding.

- Hagrid took Harry into the forbidden forest to look for the Unicorn. That seems like a strange and dangerous detention. Could that have been planned as a means for Harry to encounter Voldemort?

- As I mentioned elsewhere, the barriers that were put up to protect the Stone seemed more like tests (and had solutions) specifically designed by teachers to test the abilities of the trio.

- Dumbledore was conveniently not present at the time the trio felt they had to go through the Trap Door. A bit more below.

pg 297 - "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore sounding quite delighted. "You did do the thing properly, didn't you?" That sounds like a statement from someone who had planned the whole thing.

And then on page 302:

"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round--that took a while--and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall-he already knew--he just said, 'Harry's gone after him, hadn't he?' and hurled off to the third floor."

"D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. Sending you you father's cloak and everything?"

"Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did--I mean to say--that's terrible--you could have been killed." [I am developing a lot of confidence in Hermione's judgment and this reaction might be worth noting.]

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He is a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It is almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."

Harry was only eleven years old and this was a lot of danger to put him in. Especially if during their conversation (pg 298-299), when Harry ask why Voldemort wanted to kill him in the first place, Dumbledore says that Harry is not old enough to know that information!

It is the deliberate manipulation that seems out of place. We will learn more as we continue through the series but I think if we pay attention we may find more questionable information about Dumbledore. And we still don't know a lot by the sixth book.

Nadine

---

I agree with you on the fact that Dumbledore is controlling a lot, what happens when the kids go through the trap door illustrates this

1- Fluffy, Dumbledore knows that the kids are friends with Hagrid and probably knows that there is a good chance that they will get the needed information from Hagrid.

2-Devil's Snare, Hermione is the one who knows everything, or possibly DD could have put this test in for Neville(he's very good in herbology), and later he does play more important parts as the story goes on.Also, Neville would have followed them to try and stop them, except that Hermione cursed him. Perhaps DD is trying to teach Harry to look in less likely places for help.

3-Keys, there were broomsticks in this room and we know that Harry is an excellent flyer and seeker.

4-Chess, this is definitely one of Ron's strong points.

5-Troll, the troll was already knocked out, but the kids had already proven themselves against the troll earlier on.

6-Potions, Logic! Hermione says, "This isn't magic-it's logic-a puzzle-A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." This test is tailor made for Hermione.

7-Mirror of Erised, DD left the mirror long enough for Harry to realize how it worked and then explained it to him further.

These tasks play to the kid's strengths so perfectly, that it does seem that they were designed specifically.

---

---

I, too, had kind of overlooked Neville. I've read all the books a number of times and didn't notice the correlations between the kids and the tests once they went through the trap door, and then when you mentioned that it seemed as though DD was in some way calling the shots it just all of a sudden seemed so clear.

[lacalladita]

I am not sure that Hagrid is naive when giving away information. He does tell the dragon egg dealer what he wants to know but he's drunk. Lots of alcohol makes for loose lips. There is a theory going around that Hagrid, being such a great confident of Dumbledore, that he slips information and pretends to have done it by mistake (minus the alcohol). It is possible that Hagrid could be such a great actor.

[lacalladita]

I agree about the training theory. If Dumbledore is suppose to know everything, he has to be training Harry for things to come. Harry didn't have the benefit as the other students who come from wizarding families and know the different elements that make up the wizarding world including its history.

[lacalladita]

Last tidbits I noticed that I hope might tie in together at the end of the book or in the other books. (All the pages I list are from the paperback edition)

1. Harry thought he couldn't figure out what he forgot to do (pg. 264). But then he went to Hagrid's to talk to him about the dragon egg dealer. I am left wondering if it was this that he forgot to do or something else.

2. Harry saw an owl in the sky when he was by the lake after the exams (pg. 264). Was this the owl that carried the supposed note from the Ministry?

3. Harry had this outburst of anger on why he was going to the third floor and said that he was never going over to the dark side (pg. 270). Where did this come from? Who ever told him that Dumbledore wanted him to join him?

4. It was noted that Harry had a knack for spotting things that others can't while in the room with the winged keys (pg 280). Will this "knack" come in handy in later books?

5. When Harry asked Dumbledore what would happen to Nicolas Flamel, Dumbledore was happy and asked him "You did do the thing properly, didn't you?" (pg. 297). What exactly did he mean by this? Harry's detective work?