- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Mark Thread as New
- Mark Thread as Read
- Float this Thread to the Top
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Printer Friendly Page
Re: Chapters 28-54: cpt Ahab
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-14-2007 09:43 PM
friery wrote:
ziki wrote:
To me it was disapointing to read about Ahab as he finally appeared on the planks.
To start with, by making him invisible and introducing Elijah, Melville swept Ahab into mystery but now when he needs to live up to that expectation, it is very meak and unconvincing.
The book looses focus. What happens with POV? How does Ishmael see Ahab in practice? When he's on watch? Is he on watch? Why doesn't Melville show the life on board instead?
I found the description of Ahab fascinating. First, his ivory leg could be seen to make him part whale:
"So powerfully did the whole grim aspect of Ahab affect me, and the livid brand which streaked it, that for the first few moments I hardly noted that not a little of this overbearing grimness was owing to the barbaric white leg upon which he partly stood. It had previously come to me that this ivory leg had at sea been fashioned from the polished bone of the sperm whale's jaw."
And the augur holes drilled into the deck seem to make him him part of the ship:
"I was struck with the singular posture he maintained. Upon each side of the Pequod's quarter deck, and pretty close to the mizen shrouds, there was an auger hole, bored about half an inch or so, into the plank. His bone leg steadied in that hole; one arm elevated, and holding by a shroud; Captain Ahab stood erect, looking straight out beyond the ship's ever-pitching prow. There was an infinity of firmest fortitude, a determinate unsurrenderable wilfulness, in the fixed and fearless, forward dedication of that glance."
Overall, the image I take from Melville's description of Ahab is that of an Old Testament prophet.
Yes, you're right; his counterpart is Elijah, the mad prophet who christens everyone on the voyage with some kind of holy purpose; Ahab does the same. Melville is clearly dramatizing the start of the Judeo-Christian tradition here and its idea of a chosen people embarking on a quest.
And I'm glad you like the imagery of the whale jaw--Ahab takes the body of his adversary into his own, much as cannibals do.
friery wrote:
ziki wrote:
To me it was disapointing to read about Ahab as he finally appeared on the planks.
To start with, by making him invisible and introducing Elijah, Melville swept Ahab into mystery but now when he needs to live up to that expectation, it is very meak and unconvincing.
The book looses focus. What happens with POV? How does Ishmael see Ahab in practice? When he's on watch? Is he on watch? Why doesn't Melville show the life on board instead?
I found the description of Ahab fascinating. First, his ivory leg could be seen to make him part whale:
"So powerfully did the whole grim aspect of Ahab affect me, and the livid brand which streaked it, that for the first few moments I hardly noted that not a little of this overbearing grimness was owing to the barbaric white leg upon which he partly stood. It had previously come to me that this ivory leg had at sea been fashioned from the polished bone of the sperm whale's jaw."
And the augur holes drilled into the deck seem to make him him part of the ship:
"I was struck with the singular posture he maintained. Upon each side of the Pequod's quarter deck, and pretty close to the mizen shrouds, there was an auger hole, bored about half an inch or so, into the plank. His bone leg steadied in that hole; one arm elevated, and holding by a shroud; Captain Ahab stood erect, looking straight out beyond the ship's ever-pitching prow. There was an infinity of firmest fortitude, a determinate unsurrenderable wilfulness, in the fixed and fearless, forward dedication of that glance."
Overall, the image I take from Melville's description of Ahab is that of an Old Testament prophet.
Re: Chapters 53: English Whalers
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-15-2007 03:19 AM
fanuzzir wrote:
Where did England get the energy for the world's first industrial economy? I think the reason that there were less English whalers than American is that England had a coal industry.
Choisya wrote:
I don't know what the figures are about the number of whales caught respectively by the English and Americans Pmath, although we whaled in different waters - the North Sea and Arctic oceans so that would also account for the lack of meetings on the high seas. Brits are definitely more 'reserved' than the Americans, the more so in times gone by and I would imagine that our superiority, if that was the case, would have been due to the centuries of naval supremacy which the UK had in the world. The British navy is the oldest in the world (and still has the most tonnage) and ruled the seas at this time. This presumably was the reason behind the 'metropolitan superiority' of British seaman. When Melville wrote MD America had not reached the dizzy heights of power and wealth which it has today and the UK still ruled 25 per cent of the world so I guess that Brits did feel superior to these American upstarts, and most other nations too. The times they have a-changed
pmath wrote:
Choisya, what do you think of this passage?Nor would difference of country make any very essential difference; that is, so long as both parties speak one language, as is the case with Americans and English. Though, to be sure, from the small number of English whalers, such meetings do not very often occur, and when they do occur there is too apt to be a sort of shyness between them; for your Englishman is rather reserved, and your Yankee, he does not fancy that sort of thing in anybody but himself. Besides, the English whalers sometimes affect a kind of metropolitan superiority over the American whalers; regarding the long, lean Nantucketer, with his nondescript provincialisms, as a sort of sea-peasant. But where this superiority in the English whalemen does really consist, it would be hard to say, seeing that the Yankees in one day, collectively, kill more whales than all the English, collectively, in ten years. But this is a harmless little foible in the English whale-hunters, which the Nantucketer does not take much to heart; probably, because he knows that he has a few foibles himself.
Re: Ishmael and Bildungsroman.. .
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-15-2007 05:27 AM
I will keep it in mind. So far I didn't get any direct sense of Ishmael's development.
ziki
Re: I miss Ishmael
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-15-2007 08:46 PM
ziki wrote:
Not sure, I am not the lit. expert but as far as I heard the bildungsroman was covering a smaller spectra. Any hero has to undergo a change, otherwise no book. If it costs him life, the better, the drama thrives.
I will keep it in mind. So far I didn't get any direct sense of Ishmael's development.
ziki
That last line is key here, as Melville goes far from his initial plan into something more collaborative and also more obsessive. These chapters seems to be more about putting us inside Ahab's head, getting us to sympathize with his quest, and to schooling us in the lore of the whale in order to enlist us as a kind of crew. That's a darker impulse than he let on in the first part of the book.
Re: Moby Dick: All Aboard the Pequod, Chapters 28-54
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-17-2007 09:24 PM
Re: Moby Dick: All Aboard the Pequod, Chapters 28-54 : Chap 54 Mutiny
[ Edited ]- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-18-2007 12:46 PM - edited 01-18-2007 12:46 PM
There are quite a few similar elements in the story of the Bounty: Bligh, like Ahab, was a bad tempered captain who treated his men unfairly, Steelkit was a ringleader similar to that of Christian Fletcher, as was the journey in longboats to Tahiti, although in the Bounty's case it was Captain Bligh who was set adrift - Melville perhaps indicating that the tables can easily be turned in such circumstances. The men involved in both ships were also volunteers who could legally leave the ship at the first port and it is unwise to treat volunteers as if they were enlisted men (as both Bligh & Ahab do.):-
'Look ye, now,' cried the Lakeman, flinging out his arm towards him, 'there are a few of us here (and I am one of them) who have shipped for the cruise, d'ye see; now as you well know, sir, we can claim our discharge as soon as the anchor is down; so we don't want a row; it's not our interest; we want to be peaceable; we are ready to work, but we won't be flogged.'
Flogging was also a major issue in the Mutiny of the Bounty, as on the Pequod. Perhaps Melville's warning was both against a captain or officer's (Radney) harsh unfair punishment whilst at sea and against mutiny itself, which is a pretty risky undertaking when you are at sea and can be cast adrift. It is also against trusting your fellow-crewmen in these circumstances for they are likely to betray you, as the men betrayed their leader Steelkit. The swearing on the Bible/Evangelists as to the truth of the story at the end indicates that the story told by Melville/Ishmael was a true one, just as the story of the Bounty was.
http://www.lareau.org/sagaintro.htm
fanuzzir wrote:
As we close out this section of the book does anyone want to have a go at the Town-Ho's story? (Chapter 54) Melville put that story there as a corrective or warning, I think.
Message Edited by Choisya on 01-18-200701:00 PM
Re: Moby Dick: All Aboard the Pequod, Chapters 28-54
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-19-2007 10:18 PM
Re: Moby Dick: All Aboard the Pequod, Chapters 28-54 : Chap 54 Mutiny
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-19-2007 10:22 PM
Re: Moby Dick: All Aboard the Pequod, Chapters 28-54
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-19-2007 10:24 PM
Re: Pasteboard masks
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 12:36 PM
Denise
Re: help -end of Chapter 33
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 12:39 PM
Denise
Re: Comparing chapters 36 and 42
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 12:53 PM
Denise
Re: The first lowering
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 01:06 PM
fanuzzir wrote:
This is such a wonderful reading and selection of a pivotal character and plot point. It seems, as Choisya finds, that Ahab himself is not too immersed in his own quest to neglect the mundane aspects of maritime operations, chief of which is pacification. I know that Melville was both fascinated and horrified throughout his career how easy it was to produce consent in subjugated peoples (sailors), which is why he stuck with the naval theme for so long. Here he's putting Ahab's own romanticism in a new light: when he uses that word himself to refer to the crew's (and by extension, Ishmael's) manufactured motivation, then does he have a sincere one himself?
I think the quote Philomath posted earlier about Ahab's insane quest for vengeance being feline in nature and being able to hide is evident in the way he keeps control of the ship by keeping in the forefront of both the crew and the investors the need to turn a profit. When they killed the first whale, I half expected Ahab to interfere and call them off the hunt or to abandon the body because it was keeping them from hunting the White Whale. But he knew he had to keep everyone hunting up money, too.
Denise
Re: The first lowering
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 01:07 PM
fanuzzir wrote:
You draw great attention to Ishmael's stake in Ahab's quest. What is Ishmael's journey so far to everyone else?
Ishmael's journey is mentioned at the beginning of the book: every so often, he must go to the sea and take a voyage. It is some calling he has. He doesn't do this for a living, and he doesn't have some insane quest like Ahab.
Denise
Re: Moby Dick: All Aboard the Pequod, Chapters 28-54
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 01:18 PM
Denise
fanuzzir wrote:
As we close out this section of the book does anyone want to have a go at the Town-Ho's story? (Chapter 54) Melville put that story there as a corrective or warning, I think.
Re: Comparing chapters 36 and 42
[ Edited ]- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 01:52 PM - edited 01-22-2007 01:52 PM
donyskiw wrote:
Asking whose quest is more pure and more moral is assuming the reader some kind of right to make that decision, like we stand on some higher moral ground. I can say Ishmael's quest is more moral because I don't agree with Ahab's quest for vengeance. Dr. Phil may say that Ahab's quest for vengeance is unhealthy. Or Dr. Phil may pronounce both Ahab and Ishmael both unhealthy.
Denise
Message Edited by Choisya on 01-22-200701:56 PM
Re: Ishmael's journey
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 02:02 PM
donyskiw wrote:
fanuzzir wrote:
You draw great attention to Ishmael's stake in Ahab's quest. What is Ishmael's journey so far to everyone else?
Ishmael's journey is mentioned at the beginning of the book: every so often, he must go to the sea and take a voyage. It is some calling he has. He doesn't do this for a living, and he doesn't have some insane quest like Ahab.
Denise
Re: Comparing chapters 36 and 42
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 05:42 PM
donyskiw wrote:
Asking whose quest is more pure and more moral is assuming the reader some kind of right to make that decision, like we stand on some higher moral ground. I can say Ishmael's quest is more moral because I don't agree with Ahab's quest for vengeance. Dr. Phil may say that Ahab's quest for vengeance is unhealthy. Or Dr. Phil may pronounce both Ahab and Ishmael both unhealthy.
Denise
Point taken. So Ishmael and Ahab are morally equal?
Re: Comparing chapters 36 and 42
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-22-2007 06:02 PM
fanuzzir wrote:
donyskiw wrote:
Asking whose quest is more pure and more moral is assuming the reader some kind of right to make that decision, like we stand on some higher moral ground. I can say Ishmael's quest is more moral because I don't agree with Ahab's quest for vengeance. Dr. Phil may say that Ahab's quest for vengeance is unhealthy. Or Dr. Phil may pronounce both Ahab and Ishmael both unhealthy.
Denise
Point taken. So Ishmael and Ahab are morally equal?
Hardly!
Re: Comparing chapters 36 and 42
- Mark Message as New
- Bookmark
- Subscribe
- Subscribe to this message's RSS Feed
- Highlight This Message
- Print This Message
- E-mail this Message to a Friend
- Report Abuse to a Moderator
01-23-2007 11:30 AM
Denise
fanuzzir wrote:
donyskiw wrote:
Asking whose quest is more pure and more moral is assuming the reader some kind of right to make that decision, like we stand on some higher moral ground. I can say Ishmael's quest is more moral because I don't agree with Ahab's quest for vengeance. Dr. Phil may say that Ahab's quest for vengeance is unhealthy. Or Dr. Phil may pronounce both Ahab and Ishmael both unhealthy.
Denise
Point taken. So Ishmael and Ahab are morally equal?