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chad
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philsosophy

I think we still feel philsophy connects our wordl- we often speak of an eastern and western philosophy, for example.

Chad
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fanuzzir
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Re: philosopher



ziki wrote:
I am not sure what Melville means by a philosopher.

ziki




I think it means someone who likes to keep watch of the world from the masthead. Isn't that the chapter in which Ishmael said he was in his element?
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Re: philosophy

[ Edited ]

chad wrote:
I think we still feel philsophy connects our wordl- we often speak of an eastern and western philosophy, for example.

Chad




As you say there are many systems.I am not versed in them and I have only a limited understanding of them. Socrates or Merleu-Ponty or Shankara. (Don't worry I am just showing off.) Bob is our trusted expert on this, too. But we are not going there.

I think philosophy is the working of the mind. Cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am)

Our human mind is always in search of meaning, making connections, trying to discover patterns. Perhaps Moby is beyond philosophy.
And I am on this mission of Ahab myself, I chase Moby in pursuit of knowing if there is any knowing without thinking. I stil don't know. :-)

Each night it looks like it is not, then there are dreams and I do not belive in multiple incarnations with the concept of eternal soul....maybe eternal spirit which is not individualized....perhaps this is the whiteness of the whale. Huge scary and fascinating, too. I think Moby will finally have me, white and pale and helpless I will need to resign all my activities including brain waves and all thinking. All lines gone.

And our mind tries to think beyond death, too and create concepts of reincarnation, past lives etc. Maybe those impressions are true, on some level but that level is still within the mind. Moby, he must be of no mind....and that is what mystics say but I can't know.

ziki
learning to abide in not knowing

PS
This book is like good ol' wine, it gets better with time.

Message Edited by ziki on 02-25-200704:17 AM

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Re: philosopher




ziki wrote:
I am not sure what Melville means by a philosopher.

ziki






fanuzzir wrote:I think it means someone who likes to keep watch of the world from the masthead. Isn't that the chapter in which Ishmael said he was in his element?




Oh, how splendid! An important puzzle bit. (I will need to reread the chapter.)

There is a trace of mysticism in Moby Dick that I can't easily pinpoint and in that case Melville (mastheads) speaks of a witness: the witnessing conscsciousness (=Ishmael, the only one that survives). Ah, I get it now.

This witness attitude is almost forced on you when you sail in the vastness of the ocean. Pip went mad from it, without boat and alone in deep water (no lines, no connections) he was too small to handle it.

Sailing is a metaphor: when you sail you are and have to be one with elements and yet they are stronger. If you go against them in a wrong way, you're done with. Finito.

You also need a total discipline (structure) to stay safe. That is why Starbuck doesn't push the mutiny. He knows it might not help.


ziki
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chad
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Re: philosopher and the interface

[ Edited ]
I think I remember Ishmael getting lost in the ocean- his thoughts being absorbed in the ocean, were it not for a momentary shout from below to watch for whales. I think this is the best example of humanity being very disconnected from his world or the man preventing another from being too connected to Nature-- preventing someone from appreciating the beauty and the color of the ocean and essentially making him look for the whiteness of the whale or the spout, to view the world monochromatically.

The interface, where land and sky meets, our skin, a glass window, the hull of ship, our atmosphere, a counterpane or a border are all death itself. Someone mentioned "nihilism" a long time ago-this might explain things, but here's a mind-convoluting concept for the hatin' cookies of the world: the line is essentially death itself, as we come to a close of Moby. I don't want to ruin a sunset, but is the line there, or isn't it?

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 02-25-200710:36 AM

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Captain Ahab and the Pequod

[ Edited ]
Well, I think Ahab is the only captain, along with the Pequod, to hunt Moby Dick, to pierce the very concept of death itself.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 02-26-200712:54 AM

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Philsophopy and Queequeg's mojo

[ Edited ]
My understanding is that the philosphers of the time were focusing on the individual and individual freedoms, and in so doing, ironically and paradoxically created new whales and new unions. The best example would be Queequeg's little mojo, symbolic of the individual, which formed a new religion and ultimately led to his connection with Ishmael.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 02-27-200709:26 AM

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Oh, just some more on the interface

I guess I mean the interface as areas inbetween, the undefinable, nothingness or death? So, interfaces can be visible, but, as we are all connected to each other, as Pocahontas sings it in Disney, death does not exist except where we disconnect, which is in the interface. We don't die as we know it- truly transcendental. Yes, once again the 1800's come through, but a litle complicated they may be...hope that explains what I mean...

Chad
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Re: philosopher and the interface

[ Edited ]

chad wrote:
I think I remember Ishmael getting lost in the ocean- his thoughts being absorbed in the ocean, were it not for a momentary shout from below to watch for whales. I think this is the best example of humanity being very disconnected from his world or the man preventing another from being too connected to Nature-- preventing someone from appreciating the beauty and the color of the ocean and essentially making him look for the whiteness of the whale or the spout, to view the world monochromatically.

The interface, where land and sky meets, our skin, a glass window, the hull of ship, our atmosphere, a counterpane or a border are all death itself. Someone mentioned "nihilism" a long time ago-this might explain things, but here's a mind-convoluting concept for the hatin' cookies of the world: the line is essentially death itself, as we come to a close of Moby. I don't want to ruin a sunset, but is the line there, or isn't it?




chad this reads almost like a poem...thoughts being absorbed in the ocean...hmmm..I need that these days...I'm taking it with me home :-)

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-28-200705:41 PM

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fanuzzir
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Re: philosopher and the interface

Chad, just wondering, will you be joining us for Huck Finn in March?
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Choisya
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Re: philosopher and the interface

[ Edited ]
Beautiful, poetic post chad - thankyou. I am enjoying reading these philosophical posts even though they are too deep for cynical, pragmatic old me.:smileyhappy:




chad wrote:
I think I remember Ishmael getting lost in the ocean- his thoughts being absorbed in the ocean, were it not for a momentary shout from below to watch for whales. I think this is the best example of humanity being very disconnected from his world or the man preventing another from being too connected to Nature-- preventing someone from appreciating the beauty and the color of the ocean and essentially making him look for the whiteness of the whale or the spout, to view the world monochromatically.

The interface, where land and sky meets, our skin, a glass window, the hull of ship, our atmosphere, a counterpane or a border are all death itself. Someone mentioned "nihilism" a long time ago-this might explain things, but here's a mind-convoluting concept for the hatin' cookies of the world: the line is essentially death itself, as we come to a close of Moby. I don't want to ruin a sunset, but is the line there, or isn't it?

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 02-25-200710:36 AM



Message Edited by Choisya on 03-01-200704:34 AM

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Re: philosopher and the interface

posts even though they are too deep for cynical, pragmatic old me.

But not just cynical old pragmatic you- pragmatic humanity had used the whale in horrific ways. This era really started noticing civilization's impact on the world. So, whether you are a transcendentalist or not, I bet the world had a different feel to it. It's something we won't know until we back in sync with environment, something indescribable, maybe well nigh impossible to get back to- you've sen our huge cities. The U.S. was in a unique spot in history, civilization's intrusion into Nature was, I believe, felt more on this side of the Atlantic, but something that European writers also obviously felt. I'll try and get a copy of Huck, I'm also working on my own novel.

Chad
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Choisya
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Re: philosopher and the interface

The U.S. was in a unique spot in history, civilization's intrusion into Nature was, I believe, felt more on this side of the Atlantic, but something that European writers also obviously felt.

I don't see much evidence of Americans today feeling that intrusion Chad given their attitude towards the Kyoto Agreement, global warming etc etc.:smileysad::smileysad: The rest of us are probably 'going to h*** in a handcart' because of this un-feeling. Europe is far more advanced in this regard, especially mainland Europe.





chad wrote:
posts even though they are too deep for cynical, pragmatic old me.

But not just cynical old pragmatic you- pragmatic humanity had used the whale in horrific ways. This era really started noticing civilization's impact on the world. So, whether you are a transcendentalist or not, I bet the world had a different feel to it. It's something we won't know until we back in sync with environment, something indescribable, maybe well nigh impossible to get back to- you've sen our huge cities. The U.S. was in a unique spot in history, civilization's intrusion into Nature was, I believe, felt more on this side of the Atlantic, but something that European writers also obviously felt. I'll try and get a copy of Huck, I'm also working on my own novel.

Chad


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fanuzzir
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Re: philosopher and the interface



chad wrote This era really started noticing civilization's impact on the world. br>
Chad




Very very very true. As the nation's first global writer (possibly second after the Arabist Washington Irving), Melville was in a special position to judge the moral and poltical and culural encounter between an avowedly White Anglo-Saxon Protestant nation and the world's natural diversity. The novel really is about civilization: the Christianizing impulse, the civilizing impulse, the predatory impulse to just go out there and project our self-image. It's that simple, and that complicated.
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Re: philosopher and the interface

[ Edited ]
project our self-image

I agree and I think that projection can create our skin, even change the color.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 03-02-200709:38 AM

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all of them are me

I have a whale to deal with IRL and I feel like a Starbuck (I think) I just can't really divide the other roles and I couldn't decide who is the Ahab of the drama. There's a guy who's driving one viewpoint so hard so it now threatens to sink the whole Pequod...and you know what? he doesn't give a damn if the ship sinks because he thinks he is Ishmael. Jesuz christo it is really complicated and I have to stop the war.
It is a nasty situation and finally I reached to moby script to get some clues about what is going on and how to handle it. Moby might be the task no one wants to handle,
and majority of the shipmates think it should be abandoned except Ahab. But Ahab is not dumb, he has a point!

I have to mutate and become Queequeg next week to harpoon the whale and cut its head of (I tried Starbuck, it worked so so, just for a little while. People get suspicious of Starbucks I discovered).Instead I need a sound portion of Ahab myself; mark my word the ship is mine to sail to the harbor and in the midst of it I sure feel like Ishmael,detached, just watchin' the drama, wondering whatthe bleep is fueling them. That also looks suspicious, when everyone is on heat and has an assigned role/mission to kill they want you in it ....what a pretty mess.

ziki
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Choisya
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Re: all of them are me

Great, great post Ziki - I understood every word of it:smileysad:. Big Hugs.




ziki wrote:
I have a whale to deal with IRL and I feel like a Starbuck (I think) I just can't really divide the other roles and I couldn't decide who is the Ahab of the drama. There's a guy who's driving one viewpoint so hard so it now threatens to sink the whole Pequod...and you know what? he doesn't give a damn if the ship sinks because he thinks he is Ishmael. Jesuz christo it is really complicated and I have to stop the war.
It is a nasty situation and finally I reached to moby script to get some clues about what is going on and how to handle it. Moby might be the task no one wants to handle,
and majority of the shipmates think it should be abandoned except Ahab. But Ahab is not dumb, he has a point!

I have to mutate and become Queequeg next week to harpoon the whale and cut its head of (I tried Starbuck, it worked so so, just for a little while. People get suspicious of Starbucks I discovered).Instead I need a sound portion of Ahab myself; mark my word the ship is mine to sail to the harbor and in the midst of it I sure feel like Ishmael,detached, just watchin' the drama, wondering whatthe bleep is fueling them. That also looks suspicious, when everyone is on heat and has an assigned role/mission to kill they want you in it ....what a pretty mess.

ziki


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fanuzzir
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Re: all of them are me



Choisya wrote:
Great, great post Ziki - I understood every word of it:smileysad:. Big Hugs.




ziki wrote:
I have to mutate and become Queequeg next week to harpoon the whale and cut its head off (I tried Starbuck, it worked so so, just for a little while. People get suspicious of Starbucks I discovered).

ziki







I would much rather be Queeqeg than Starbuck, so I'm glad you made the switch.
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Re: all of them are me : civilization

Civilization is also an interface or a skin for the human being, protecting him from Nature. Removing layers can eventually lead to death.

Chad
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Re: all of them are me



fanuzzir wrote:I would much rather be Queeqeg than Starbuck, so I'm glad you made the switch.




Less the tatoos in my case :-) But I could deal in dried human skulls if it was necessary, I think.

ziki
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