Thanks fanuzzir, I get all that but what does 'doozy' mean?
I found a reference to Melville's anti-Trancendentalism in a couple of essays online - what do you think:-
'Herman Melville, the author of Moby Dick, attacks the views of the Transcendentalists by portraying Moby Dick, the white whale, as the personification of evil. This completely opposes the Transcendentalist idea that there is only good in the world. Throughout the story, Melville also incorporates the Anti-Transcendental principles that the truths of existence are illusive and that nature is indifferent, unforgiving, and often unexplainable.
Moby Dick and Captain Ahab both refute the Transcendentalist principle that there is no evil, there is only love. The Transcendentalists feel that the world is filled with goodness, however, the Anti-Transcendentalists believe in the more reasonable idea that man has the potential to be either good or bad.'
and
'Transcendentalism is the term linked to the Emersonian-Thoreauvian set of beliefs which incorporated the existence of an Oversoul and the benevolent disposition of man as the default one. Such writers as Melville of this time period were opposed to the Transcendental views. The natural opposition to a theory of man’s general benevolence is one of his malevolence toward everything around him; the primary idea behind anti-Transcendentalism was that all human people have a capacity for evil and that, given the proper circumstances, the evil in anyone would come forth in their actions.'
I found a reference to Melville's anti-Trancendentalism in a couple of essays online - what do you think:-'Herman Melville, the author of Moby Dick, attacks the views of the Transcendentalists by portraying Moby Dick, the white whale, as the personification of evil. This completely opposes the Transcendentalist idea that there is only good in the world. Throughout the story, Melville also incorporates the Anti-Transcendental principles that the truths of existence are illusive and that nature is indifferent, unforgiving, and often unexplainable.
Moby Dick and Captain Ahab both refute the Transcendentalist principle that there is no evil, there is only love. The Transcendentalists feel that the world is filled with goodness, however, the Anti-Transcendentalists believe in the more reasonable idea that man has the potential to be either good or bad.'
and
'Transcendentalism is the term linked to the Emersonian-Thoreauvian set of beliefs which incorporated the existence of an Oversoul and the benevolent disposition of man as the default one. Such writers as Melville of this time period were opposed to the Transcendental views. The natural opposition to a theory of man’s general benevolence is one of his malevolence toward everything around him; the primary idea behind anti-Transcendentalism was that all human people have a capacity for evil and that, given the proper circumstances, the evil in anyone would come forth in their actions.'
fanuzzir wrote:
Choisya wrote:
Yes Fedallah and his compatriots are 'other', like Queequeg. But Queegueg (an Antipodean) is presented as a good guy and Ishmael's friend. Fedallah & Co are Oriental pagans who are allied with Ahab and he chooses their blood to 'anoint' his harpoon. The former pagan rite with the crew (drinking from their harpoon sockets etc) was mainly with Christians, this time Ahab has sunk to truly devilish behaviour which signifiies a diabolical end....
I found this very interesting reference to Muslim women and 19th Century Orientalism:-
http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/arthistory/ah369/westernrepresent.htm
Fanuzzir: I have found references to the 19th Century fascination with the Orient and on the now controversial book Orientalism by Edward Said but I can't seem to pull it together in any meaningful way with regard to Melville. I also found references to Transcendentalism (and Thoreau!) but couldn't source that well either. I can't get to my local library easily so would be grateful if you could spell some of this out for us in relation to Melville and MD. Here is a piece on Transcendentalism, which refers also to Unitarianism, which I have brought up in the Gaskell's discussions (the Gaskells were Unitarians).
http://thoreau.eserver.org/amertran.html
Laurel may be able to tell us more about this aspect of American religious history.
ziki wrote:
fanuzzir wrote:
The sudden appearance of Fedallah & Co was strange and although I can understand why they were smuggled aboard as extra hands, I am puzzled as to why they are Orientals and wonder what significance that has. Did Oriental people have special significance at this the time of writing? Any ideas?
Can anyone help us with Choisya's excellent question? It would seem Ahab has a brought aboard a secret, personal crew of Asian whalehunters. It's an scenario full of symbolism, historical significance, and dramatic import.
OK, I take a stab at it---I think if it was a Johnny Dope and Perry Scope from Philly it wouldn't have the same dramatic effect.These are yellow savages and one with turban that competes whith full moon! I definitely associate to pirates.Nobody in that crew invites others too close....even if they quickly melted into the crowd after the first chase.
Being visually different race from others they are more likely to be suspect and their characters will gel more easily with Ahab's. Not sure about the last part because the shipcrew as presented during the shakespearian nigth was pretty internationaland I am not sure the seamen were so small-minded.
zikiMessage Edited by Choisya on 01-08-200711:54 PM
Choisya, as to your first point, I would say that you help clarify the issue by reminding us that the "Oriental" crew baptizes the harpoon in a perverse, unholy ritual. As to your second point on Said's Orientalism: one of the more fascinating points the book makes is that Western knowledge, considered as a universal archive of thought, is actually founded upon a secret renunciation and false representation of Eastern thought, and that contains not so surreptious arguments about the superiority of West to East.
That being said, Melville does seem fascinated by the polarity of world views, and brings out so much of the exotic in Queeqeg in a way that makes him more appealing (but not necessarily more familiar). However, the end of chapter 50, on Fedallah, is a doozy, making " muffled mystery" of a person into a symbol for the eternal mysteries of the East. (There you have it: West equals rational, transparent knowlege and motives; East is subterfuge, mystery, obtuse motivations). But wait! Melville makes sly move by placing this mystery in Ahab's hands, and making the whole thing a mystery about Ahab's own motives in outfitting the ship. Ahab, the fatalist, the Calvinist, the man of predetermined fate, is in league with the Oriental. That's also the answer to your question; Calvinism, not Transcendentalism, seems the spiritual reference in the book, though Melville would like to believe in Plato, I think.
LOL. Blame the English yes, but at least we have moved much further away from that Puritanism than has America when it comes to religious beliefs, given the strong streak of Calvinist fundamentalism which still runs through American Christianity. I think perhaps that Melville would say that you are still on that mission, particularly in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6252305.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6252305.stm
fanuzzir wrote:
Anti-Transcendentalism here is just another name for Calvinism, the fatalist doctrine of sin and salvation that a reviled sect of English Puritans took with them from the mother country and brought to the New England colonies. This is significant as an intellectual stand on Melville's part, but it is even more significant as a dramatization of American history, for Calvinism and the need to see potential evil in every heretical or foreign aspect of their lives (see their treatment of "witches," Native Americans, Quakers, Baptists, religious dissenters) was central to the "mission" that Puritans imposed on their colony. This is the same mission, Melville is arguing, that America is still on, and that Ahab is renewing with his chase of the ultimate evil, Moby Dick (the joke being on him, as Moby Dick is a cipher for his own twisted motivations); the fact that the successor to Calvinist Puritan founders of this mission is employing scary pagan harpooners should tell you how twisted Melville thinks that mission really is. (Then there's the obvious question: are we still on it?)
I find the easiest way to keep track of what folks are posting is to 'subscribe' to the Email facility, either on the thread itself or in your Profile. This way an email is sent to your computer Inbox each time someone posts something on that thread and you can choose to answer it or not. Folks will also be doing the same when you post. Hope this helps
ALK wrote:
fanuzzir--I do not know enough about bulletin boards to know if you still follow this one now that you are on Hemingway--Anyway--
I was industriously reading all the back posts so that I could contribute something meaningful to the discussion of MD when I came across your thread, "Dramatic Personae." Intrigued, I read your first post where you talked about Melville's colorful, strong characters, like Shakespeare's. Wow, I thought, what a great pun--"dramatic" reflecting the characters and personae alluding to a play, as in Shakespeare and the various aspects of MD being a play.
I thought this pun would be discussed, so I read on to enjoy the discussion. Nothing, until I got to reply 22, where you refer to "dramatis persona." Oh no, I thought, is that great pun just the result of a typo?
Anyway, I enjoyed it, and it got me thinking more about the "dramatic characters" acting in this play.
