so much whale detail (partly political)

[Choisya]

That's true Ziki but on the other hand there are far more protests groups today and far more protective legislation has been enacted than in Melville/Sinclair's day. We are also far more aware than people ever were, especially globally. I saw Gore's film the other day, it was on our TV. As for Bush - don't get me going! But it is said over here that until America does something to address these issues, global warming, Kyoto etc etc, the rest of the world might as well not bother because America is still the world's worst polluter and gobbler up of resources. Until 'Chindia' gets up to speed of course......Heighho

[Choisya]

Ziki - what are you doing posting at this time of my day?? What time is it wherever you are? I hope you are not burning midnight whale oil?!

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ziki wrote:
That is a good point, Choisya, I am selfish enough here just to look with my 'reader requirements' of today and that is an artificial construction in itself.
However, when we talk about the book it can open some doors.

ziki

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[ziki]

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Choisya wrote:. Until 'Chindia' gets up to speed of course......Heighho

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Gosh; I do not even dare to think the thought!
I started a separate thread where we can rant&rave about this.

To heighten the consciousness of the population is a slow process, so far only undertaken by a few if they enter a therapy situation. Some can choose to get engaged politically on the base of their care (not just sheer power). It is an issue of leadership and example.

Majority of people are followers because it is the easiest thing to do that also enables them to stay safe by blaming others (=the evil game).

In this case you'll have to make people to follow. It is a task for generations but we might not have enough time left for that generational shift to happen, especially when the parents of today do not do their job= teach their kids by example...and they don't. Consumption is still the king. We need to reach some consensus on the top levels and it has to be implemented/respected by all the nations no matter how the national standard looks.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 01-25-200702:47 PM

[Choisya]

Message deleted by Choisya and moved to another thread.

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-25-200709:38 AM

[ziki]

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Choisya wrote:
Ziki - what are you doing posting at this time of my day?? >

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hehe, some times I just work :-)

ziki

[donyskiw]

This used to be a big "science" back then. It makes me wonder what other current "sciences" will go the same way.

Denise

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fanuzzir wrote:
Do you know you were supposed to be able to know a person's character by feeling the bumps on his or her head? That's why Melville is so entranced by the great expense of Moby Dick's brow, as he calls it (a joking comparison to Daniel Webster, this titan of the Senate revered for the height of his forehead, if you can believe it).

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[Choisya]

I guess most of science if Creationists come to the forefront?

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donyskiw wrote:
This used to be a big "science" back then. It makes me wonder what other current "sciences" will go the same way.

Denise

---

fanuzzir wrote:
Do you know you were supposed to be able to know a person's character by feeling the bumps on his or her head? That's why Melville is so entranced by the great expense of Moby Dick's brow, as he calls it (a joking comparison to Daniel Webster, this titan of the Senate revered for the height of his forehead, if you can believe it).

---

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[Laurel]

Gabriel was the angel of life, not death. He was the angel who announced to Mary that she would be the mother of the Messiah.

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Choisya wrote:
Ziki wrote: And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

Isn't Gabriel the Avenging Angel and the Angel of Death? Father Mapple's sermon foreshadowed all that was to happen on board the Pequod and yes, the shipmates of the Pequod were already sold to the devil once they embarked with Ahab.

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ziki wrote:
We have the character of Gabriel, fortified by the death of Macey.
No doubt this is a foreshadowing but is there more to that episode?

Gabriel wouldn't even go too near the Pequod (as if Pequod,not Jeroboam were smitten by sickness, evil).

And there's also the inversion of power: A Jeroboam's captain made impotent by the 'faith of the men into the words of Gabriel'. What to make out of that? Were the shipmates of Pequod sold already to devil?

In what way is Gabriel different from Ahab? Both managed to control the crew. Gabriel didn't even have an official madate to do so.
And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

ziki
headspins

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[Laurel]

Exactly.

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donyskiw wrote:
This used to be a big "science" back then. It makes me wonder what other current "sciences" will go the same way.

Denise

---

fanuzzir wrote:
Do you know you were supposed to be able to know a person's character by feeling the bumps on his or her head? That's why Melville is so entranced by the great expense of Moby Dick's brow, as he calls it (a joking comparison to Daniel Webster, this titan of the Senate revered for the height of his forehead, if you can believe it).

---

---

[Choisya]

Thanks Laurel: Perhaps it is a Judaic reference then. I think there is a tradition of Gabriel also being the bringer of death. Perhaps because he sits on the left hand of God (Jehovah?) and brings both good and bad news - the left being connected with evil or the sinister? I know that there are supposedly 'six angels of death' and that Gabriel is one of them. It is possibly a Talmudic reference but I don't have my Talmud concordance to hand at the moment - it is in the lodger's room!

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Laurel wrote:
Gabriel was the angel of life, not death. He was the angel who announced to Mary that she would be the mother of the Messiah.

---

Choisya wrote:
Ziki wrote: And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

Isn't Gabriel the Avenging Angel and the Angel of Death? Father Mapple's sermon foreshadowed all that was to happen on board the Pequod and yes, the shipmates of the Pequod were already sold to the devil once they embarked with Ahab.

---

ziki wrote:
We have the character of Gabriel, fortified by the death of Macey.
No doubt this is a foreshadowing but is there more to that episode?

Gabriel wouldn't even go too near the Pequod (as if Pequod,not Jeroboam were smitten by sickness, evil).

And there's also the inversion of power: A Jeroboam's captain made impotent by the 'faith of the men into the words of Gabriel'. What to make out of that? Were the shipmates of Pequod sold already to devil?

In what way is Gabriel different from Ahab? Both managed to control the crew. Gabriel didn't even have an official madate to do so.
And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

ziki
headspins

---

---

---

[Laurel]

I think you're right, choisya. I the book of Daniel, Gabriel prophesies the terror of Antiochus Epiphanes.

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Choisya wrote:
Thanks Laurel: Perhaps it is a Judaic reference then. I think there is a tradition of Gabriel also being the bringer of death. Perhaps because he sits on the left hand of God (Jehovah?) and brings both good and bad news - the left being connected with evil or the sinister? I know that there are supposedly 'six angels of death' and that Gabriel is one of them. It is possibly a Talmudic reference but I don't have my Talmud concordance to hand at the moment - it is in the lodger's room!

---

Laurel wrote:
Gabriel was the angel of life, not death. He was the angel who announced to Mary that she would be the mother of the Messiah.

---

Choisya wrote:
Ziki wrote: And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

Isn't Gabriel the Avenging Angel and the Angel of Death? Father Mapple's sermon foreshadowed all that was to happen on board the Pequod and yes, the shipmates of the Pequod were already sold to the devil once they embarked with Ahab.

---

ziki wrote:
We have the character of Gabriel, fortified by the death of Macey.
No doubt this is a foreshadowing but is there more to that episode?

Gabriel wouldn't even go too near the Pequod (as if Pequod,not Jeroboam were smitten by sickness, evil).

And there's also the inversion of power: A Jeroboam's captain made impotent by the 'faith of the men into the words of Gabriel'. What to make out of that? Were the shipmates of Pequod sold already to devil?

In what way is Gabriel different from Ahab? Both managed to control the crew. Gabriel didn't even have an official madate to do so.
And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

ziki
headspins

---

---

---

---

[Choisya]

Thanks Laurel - the things this books gets us into!

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Laurel wrote:
I think you're right, choisya. I the book of Daniel, Gabriel prophesies the terror of Antiochus Epiphanes.

---

Choisya wrote:
Thanks Laurel: Perhaps it is a Judaic reference then. I think there is a tradition of Gabriel also being the bringer of death. Perhaps because he sits on the left hand of God (Jehovah?) and brings both good and bad news - the left being connected with evil or the sinister? I know that there are supposedly 'six angels of death' and that Gabriel is one of them. It is possibly a Talmudic reference but I don't have my Talmud concordance to hand at the moment - it is in the lodger's room!

---

Laurel wrote:
Gabriel was the angel of life, not death. He was the angel who announced to Mary that she would be the mother of the Messiah.

---

Choisya wrote:
Ziki wrote: And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

Isn't Gabriel the Avenging Angel and the Angel of Death? Father Mapple's sermon foreshadowed all that was to happen on board the Pequod and yes, the shipmates of the Pequod were already sold to the devil once they embarked with Ahab.

---

ziki wrote:
We have the character of Gabriel, fortified by the death of Macey.
No doubt this is a foreshadowing but is there more to that episode?

Gabriel wouldn't even go too near the Pequod (as if Pequod,not Jeroboam were smitten by sickness, evil).

And there's also the inversion of power: A Jeroboam's captain made impotent by the 'faith of the men into the words of Gabriel'. What to make out of that? Were the shipmates of Pequod sold already to devil?

In what way is Gabriel different from Ahab? Both managed to control the crew. Gabriel didn't even have an official madate to do so.
And how do you relate Gabriel to Father Mapple?

ziki
headspins

---

---

---

---

---

[ziki]

I was long wondering how the whalers managed with drinking water. They couldn't live on rum alone, LOL. I don't know exactly how long since they left Nantucket but it seems it has been quite a while...but indeed finally around page 400 the mention of it appears. It is hard to imagine that the ship could store so much water.

Also whatever they carried from the hunt they stored it all?

ziki

[ziki]

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fanuzzir wrote:
Do you know you were supposed to be able to know a person's character by feeling the bumps on his or her head? That's why Melville is so entranced by the great expense of Moby Dick's brow, as he calls it (a joking comparison to Daniel Webster, this titan of the Senate revered for the height of his forehead, if you can believe it).

---

a book:


Appearance of Character: Physiognomy and Facial Expression in Eighteenth-Century France, The


Melissa Percival



Physiognomy - the notion that there is a relationship between character and physical appearance - is often dismissed as a marginal pseudoscience; however, The Appearance of Character argues that it is central to many disciplines and thought processes, and that it constantly adapts itself to current patterns of thought and modes of discourse. This interdisciplinary study determines the characteristics of physiognomical thought in France during the previously neglected period leading up to the reception of Johann Caspar Lavater's physiognomy in the early 1780s. It establishes a corpus of physiognomical texts, juxtaposing `mainstream' figures such as Buffon and Diderot with a host of minor writers. It then considers the representation of the passions in art, examining the legacy of Charles LeBrun, and revealing an aesthetics of facial representation where the passions are conceived in terms of multiplicity, speed, and nuance. The contribution of the Comte de Caylus to the development of the `tête d'expression' is analysed, as well as the innovations of Greuze in the field of expression. Physiognomy in portraiture is also addressed through the work of La Tour. Facial expression in painting is found to have strong parallels with contemporary acting theory and stage practice. Finally, The Appearance of Character addresses the notion of character, outlining various predominant theories, and analysing the complex relationship between character and passions. In this respect, the study has ramifications for theories of the self and individualism in the Enlightenment and beyond.

[ziki]

---

pmath wrote:
This is fascinating: does anyone know more about this?

If you attentively regard almost any quadruped's spine, you will be struck with the resemblance of its vertebrae to a strung necklace of dwarfed skulls, all bearing rudimental resemblance to the skull proper. It is a German conceit, that the vertebrae are absolutely undeveloped skulls. ... Now, I consider that the phrenologists have omitted an important thing in not pushing their investigations from the cerebellum through the spinal canal. For I believe that much of a man's character will be found betokened in his backbone. I would rather feel your spine than your skull, whoever you are. A thin joist of a spine never yet upheld a full and noble soul. I rejoice in my spine, as in the firm audacious staff of that flag which I fling half out to the world.

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pmath, that is one of many passages that I noticed but didn't know what to do with...especially the end....I'd rather feel your spine than your skull.
In the light of the discussion here...it can be a subtle remark....we know what feeling someone's spine stands for x[rather than some 'silly' science of feeling someone's skull.]

dunno
ziki

[pmath]

What is "that flag?"

(BTW, Ziki, I love your new icon! I changed mine, too, yesterday.)

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ziki wrote:
pmath, that is one of many passages that I noticed but didn't know what to do with...especially the end....I'd rather feel your spine than your skull.

---

pmath wrote:
This is fascinating: does anyone know more about this?

If you attentively regard almost any quadruped's spine, you will be struck with the resemblance of its vertebrae to a strung necklace of dwarfed skulls, all bearing rudimental resemblance to the skull proper. It is a German conceit, that the vertebrae are absolutely undeveloped skulls. ... Now, I consider that the phrenologists have omitted an important thing in not pushing their investigations from the cerebellum through the spinal canal. For I believe that much of a man's character will be found betokened in his backbone. I would rather feel your spine than your skull, whoever you are. A thin joist of a spine never yet upheld a full and noble soul. I rejoice in my spine, as in the firm audacious staff of that flag which I fling half out to the world.

---

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Message Edited by pmath on 01-31-200702:35 PM

[ziki]

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pmath wrote:
BTW, Ziki, I love your new icon! I changed mine, too, yesterday.)

---

;-) I thought it was very daring of you. This was closest to Ahab I could get.

ziki

PS
that flag I didn't get either. I estimate I am missing at least 70% of the book's hidden meanings. Amen.

[ziki]

I think the part of the chapter (The Grand Armada) where they get into the "eye of the whales" was nothing short of magic.
From the mad hunt straight into the peace, Queequeg starts patting them on their heads...now, that's my boy....thre's some hope for the human race.

Melville really worked nicely with the contrasts here, it was very visual.
----------
But then he wonders if I am a Loose-Fish or Fast-Fish??? Sometimes I do not get him at all. Do you?

ziki

[pmath]

As I told Bob earlier (here), I didn't understand most of what Ahab said! We're just going to have to read MD again, and again, and again,...

Why daring? There's a photograph of a blue whale and more information here:

http://www.yoto98.noaa.gov/books/whales/whale3.htm

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ziki wrote:
;-) I thought it was very daring of you. This was closest to Ahab I could get.

ziki

PS
that flag I didn't get either. I estimate I am missing at least 70% of the book's hidden meanings. Amen.

---

pmath wrote:
What is "that flag?"

(BTW, Ziki, I love your new icon! I changed mine, too, yesterday.)

---

ziki wrote:
pmath, that is one of many passages that I noticed but didn't know what to do with...especially the end....I'd rather feel your spine than your skull.

---

pmath wrote:

...I would rather feel your spine than your skull, whoever you are. A thin joist of a spine never yet upheld a full and noble soul. I rejoice in my spine, as in the firm audacious staff of that flag which I fling half out to the world.

Message Edited by pmath on 01-31-200702:30 PM

[Choisya]

This seems a bit different to reading bumps on the head though Ziki - physiognomy/facial characteristics can be hereditary, can be caused by climate (fat noses in the tropics thin ones in the Andes), eating habits - chewing a lot etc.

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ziki wrote:

---

fanuzzir wrote:
Do you know you were supposed to be able to know a person's character by feeling the bumps on his or her head? That's why Melville is so entranced by the great expense of Moby Dick's brow, as he calls it (a joking comparison to Daniel Webster, this titan of the Senate revered for the height of his forehead, if you can believe it).

---

a book:


Appearance of Character: Physiognomy and Facial Expression in Eighteenth-Century France, The


Melissa Percival



Physiognomy - the notion that there is a relationship between character and physical appearance - is often dismissed as a marginal pseudoscience; however, The Appearance of Character argues that it is central to many disciplines and thought processes, and that it constantly adapts itself to current patterns of thought and modes of discourse. This interdisciplinary study determines the characteristics of physiognomical thought in France during the previously neglected period leading up to the reception of Johann Caspar Lavater's physiognomy in the early 1780s. It establishes a corpus of physiognomical texts, juxtaposing `mainstream' figures such as Buffon and Diderot with a host of minor writers. It then considers the representation of the passions in art, examining the legacy of Charles LeBrun, and revealing an aesthetics of facial representation where the passions are conceived in terms of multiplicity, speed, and nuance. The contribution of the Comte de Caylus to the development of the `tête d'expression' is analysed, as well as the innovations of Greuze in the field of expression. Physiognomy in portraiture is also addressed through the work of La Tour. Facial expression in painting is found to have strong parallels with contemporary acting theory and stage practice. Finally, The Appearance of Character addresses the notion of character, outlining various predominant theories, and analysing the complex relationship between character and passions. In this respect, the study has ramifications for theories of the self and individualism in the Enlightenment and beyond.

---