more Moby: democratic inquiries

[ziki]

What say I? I do not quite get life on this planet in all its aspects. People talk about community and brotherhood and togetherness and coopertiona dn all these fine words but when they are in such a situation full of potential in practice mny times the egoism and 'me better than you' and 'me here you dead'is the main attitude on display. Add manipulation and tricks and the game's on. I see it daily and I am very disenchanted with it, I must admit. I better say it really amazes me and I feel sad. This globe could be such a great overflowing place, full of fun and joy and look what we created instead.....sometimes democracy (the way it is 'misused') is just a dictatorship of the majority.

ziki

[Choisya]

Apropos of nothing....a Starbuck's opened in my local shopping centre last weekend. Perhaps it is a sign...

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ziki wrote:

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chad wrote:
Many of you have wondered about the charcater of Starbuck. I think Starbuck represents an American enterprising spirit-- a spirit which can take us to the stars, but a spirit which is also bound by financial concerns, keeping us somewhat grounded.

Chad

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Hmmmm...interesting...after all he went on the whaler so he was adventurous enough but he was also a family father. In that way his situation was similar to Ahab's.Both had wives and small children. But for Ahab his mission was number one, for Starbuck the family seemed to be his preference.


Women writers wrote spin offs about Ahab's wife but why not about Starbucks wife?

ziki

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[chad]

Starbuck's concern for his family may not have been altruistic. I think one owner, a Quaker himself, also gave special compensation to men with families. At least, Starbuck's family values may have stemmed from religion or possibly business. The family is often the core of religion and political platforms here in the states.

One economist told me that currencty exists to facilitate trade, but the absence of money is what I was thinking about, along with Melville, I hope. A will of the world to explore space without budget restraints, might take us beyond the milky way, rather than rely on the whale, who left a trail of milky way white foam behind him.

Chad

[chad]

Starbuck was someone who had to conform to ship and business goals. Was he able to assume a position of leadership after Ahab goes mad, or after being subordinate to Ahab? Did Ahab believe that the Pequod's search for the white whale was civilization's only chance for survival? The only chance for the Pequod's survival? If so, was he right to believe this? Well, maybe. It was a time, as I think I stated, where length of term or service was around, but I'm not sure about mandatory retirement. The wrestle of power or the time when a captain or leader should step down from the seat of power and let another assume control is always controversial and is the subject of Moby, and, I would hope, modern debate-- but I'm reading about Anna Nicole's funeral arrangements.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 03-29-200707:50 PM

[ziki]

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chad wrote: The family is often the core of religion and political platforms here in the states.>

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I think family as the smallest unit plays that role in many societies nowadays. Bu teven teh family s not that stable as it used to be. Previously when survival was more unsure it was the whole group of people, a tribe, that needed to cooperate.

Nowadays single person survives without effort in the cities and that was not possible under other conditions.

ziki

[Choisya]

Ineresting point Ziki. However, the single person (or any person) only survives because of the efforts of thousands of invisible others - those who operate the electricity stations, maintain the streets, run the transport systems, truck the food etc etc etc. No matter how independent we may think ourselves, from the moment we get up in the morning to when we go to sleep at night, we are dependent upon the goodwill and labour of others.

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ziki wrote:

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chad wrote: The family is often the core of religion and political platforms here in the states.>

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I think family as the smallest unit plays that role in many societies nowadays. Bu teven teh family s not that stable as it used to be. Previously when survival was more unsure it was the whole group of people, a tribe, that needed to cooperate.

Nowadays single person survives without effort in the cities and that was not possible under other conditions.

ziki

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[chad]

The notion of family, among other things, certainly keeps him torn between Ahab's quest for vengeance and the Pequod's goal of turning a profit. Family values are important to businesses and business objectives. I don't want to say anything negative, but remember that in this story, family, business, and religion, were all mixed up in one strange ship called the Pequod-- the only ship who sailed to stab death itself, however, so, that's the positive note...

Chad


PS-"who sailed to stab death itself"-- not that the whales or Moby Dick were actually death- I think that was the point, given the monomania, whiteness, etc. etc. in the story. We are indeed the whale, and, the offspring of an unholy union at that-- interestingly Capt Ahab resembles the devil. But it was a union nonetheless, which culminated in the 1800's, I think.

Message Edited by chad on 04-01-200709:25 PM

[chad]

The unknown is a big concept in the literature of this time period, and Moby I think, but I just wondered if you felt that "the unknown" was something that fuels research, or something that impedes it? Indeed, insurance comprises a large sector of business and economy. Can we only go so far due to our own orientation to "the unknown", due to our desire to minimize risk and control fate? Is our world or is human nature inherently equatorial, keeping us a little more grounded than I think we would like to be?

Chad

PS-- Verne models his character of Captain Nemo using this concept- one of my favorites!

Message Edited by chad on 04-03-200711:13 AM

[ziki]

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Choisya wrote:
Ineresting point Ziki. However, the single person (or any person) only survives because of the efforts of thousands of invisible others - those who operate the electricity stations, maintain the streets, run the transport systems, truck the food etc etc etc. No matter how independent we may think ourselves, from the moment we get up in the morning to when we go to sleep at night, we are dependent upon the goodwill and labour of others.

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Absolutely. Once I was trying to investigate how many people were 'active' before I could eat my breakfast. It's quite daunting.

ziki

[ziki]

I think we both fear and crave the unknown. We also know that the unknown can't be known which fuels the whole process of dealing with the predicament. We want to master it but we are not all that sure that we can.

ziki

[chad]

Ziki-

I know exactly what you're saying. The unknown, another way of saying uncertainty or risk, manifests itself in the insurance business. Risk is calculated and translated into dollar amounts. Couldn't these dollars be used in another sector of the economy?-could these dollars boost ourselves to planet Mars, for instance?--I haven't visited the planet Mars since fourth grade, I think.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 04-04-200712:43 PM

[friery]

This thread is taking longer than it took The Pequod to go around the world.

[chad]

I'm not sure I know how to start a new thread.

Chad

[chad]

Hey fellow space cadets!

The great equalizer would be our rotation around the sun-- something that we have may have to eventually leave permanently? But I think the whale helped us to escape the earth's gravitational pull.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 04-07-200701:36 PM

[ziki]

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chad wrote:
Hey fellow space cadets!

The great equalizer would be our rotation around the sun-- something that we have may have to eventually leave permanently? But I think the whale helped us to escape the earth's gravitational pull.

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 04-07-200701:36 PM

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What?

ziki

[ziki]

I do not want to move to Mars, there are no whales on Mars
it's good we do not need whales for economy (some countries would disagree-but we've exhaused that topic).
I don't think you can live without risks if you really think about it.

ziki

[ziki]

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friery wrote:
This thread is taking longer than it took The Pequod to go around the world.

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hahah, what's the hurry? We are on back burner anyhow, moreover, fanuzir fell overboard ...what's there to do?

ziki
in masthead, seeing no land, no whale, no nothing

[chad]

Just kidding,

By the way, Ahab's ultimate goal is to be immortal or to keep himself from dying, and, the only way he can do this is try to remain in that interface, to become death himself. At one point, I believe he screams, "Leaky caskets within leaky caskets!" and literally goes insane realizing that everything in the world is connected, he is unable to remain in that interface-- everthing leaks through and nothing has integrity- For example, we are connedtced through our world by our nostrils, the whale through his spout, etc. etc.

Hope this continues to clue everyone in, but I'll try and write more later, later,

Chad

[chad]

Ziki:

I think that current astronomical thinking is that our sun won't last forever?

Chad

[chad]

The B&N forum doesn't really allow room to go really, really in depth- you could write books on all of these things. But Melville writes about the forces that pull or bind us- these forces could be politics, business, religion, biology, physics, etc. etc. The drama and intensity in Moby Dick comes from tension in reaization that those forces that pull me may lead to my own destruction or the disintegration of my own skin- forces which are insurmountable. For example, I'm not sure if I should leave the country with my "stove self." That is, will the union of the U.S. survive or lead me on a path to the Middle East? A question on a larger scale mght be: will humanity collectively be able to leave the pull of the sun when it's time to leave? Will we ever feel it is time?

Off to the gym once again! have a great day!
Chad