08-28-2007 08:23 AM
So....as an example, I can't sit in your classrooms and feel that I'm free if I feel have to go to school. I would be afraid of an "unfree existence" or a "life" sentence of any kind- these things exist in our society, in and out of prison. And if you feel that someone isn't talking to you out of this fear, then you can talk to him/her, but I don't know how effective communication would be in this kind of society anyway. We didn't want to ever go there throughout my life, we just continued as stupidly as we ever did, and, if I complain, people just take the little freedom that I had and threw me in hospitals and prions. This is how wonderful we are in the US. So, I side with the economic union argument, not one formed on democratic principles.
What say you?
08-28-2007 08:45 PM
It makes little difference in Moby: Nature forms whales or unions which swallow other living things. We sometimes don't know whether we are fast fish or loose fish; we sometimes can't see the surface of our skin--we could be inside a whale and not know it. We could be pulled the by the gravitational forces of the sun, or the principles of a democracy, and not be able to escape.
But no matter what, we are still part of this earth, as far as I know. Not any space cadets out there that I know of, are there?
08-29-2007 09:20 AM
So, hypothetically, my mind or my will wasn't strong enough to form a new whale of my own, and I am left with no choice but to take my own life. Or, to take Cato's situation, the will of the masses, led by Caesar, was all powerful. Cato could not break away from Rome with his own philosophy- it would not be strong enough to muster his own army. It's an interesting story.
The American civil war might be one with which you're more familiar. The confederate states could not break away from the union. The union won. I don't condone slavery, obviously, but Melville makes a strong case that we had something similar to slavery in the north anyway. Probably, semantics to Melville.
But to close: my body would be a slave to my mind. Suicide is an extreme example. It's hard to imagine that it actually happens.
08-30-2007 10:39 AM - edited 08-30-2007 11:17 AM
Or perhaps there are larger whales which we heither have difficulte seeing or which we cannot see- whales whose skin is not so visible, created my minds like Pythagoras for example. In fact, a whale might become so large, it might appear that Nature is commiting suicide, as depicted in the painting at the Spouter Inn.
So, a war is not a war necessarily, but could be a suicide. The final war would be something holocostal, but also something akin to a whale impaling itself on three masts...and its difficult to imagine a philosophy strong enough to swallow a whale, but democratic principles swallowed the northern right whale to form the union in the 1800's, and whale hunting continues today...
That's the Moby way of thinking! So I ask again, "Hast thou seen the white whale?"
Message Edited by chad on 08-30-2007 11:17 AM
09-01-2007 08:15 AM - edited 09-01-2007 08:17 AM
My guess is the source of religion would be somewhere in the middle east- religion is often cited as the reason we are currently there. Terrorism would be a white whale that would be difficult to see. Regime analysis in policy and political science could have began with Moby Dick, but I never hear the book cited as the impetus of modern- day political science. Had we read this one a little better, who knows?
Message Edited by chad on 09-01-2007 08:17 AM
09-02-2007 11:22 AM - edited 09-02-2007 11:25 AM
Note 2: Zoroastrian religion may be the beginning of religions, and the founder was possibly from a region around Afghanistan. The sects that have derived from the original zoroastrian religion have become quite large, and, having become large whales ourselves, we may now approach the apocolyptal stories found in religions or resemble the painting at the Spouter Inn. The final battle, I hope, if we survive the battles of the whales here on earth, will be our battle with the sun. At that point, everything will have converged: good and evil, man and whale, land and sea, black and white... space exploration is/"will have to" be a cooperative effort among nations. Our war effort in the middle east would be a drain on NASA's funding.
Message Edited by chad on 09-02-2007 11:25 AM
09-02-2007 07:34 PM
But, remember, language, like nature, has a ghostlike but a magical "now you see it, now you don't" quality about it. We sometimes see language can appear on the surfaces of our buildings(hieroglyphics), skin(tattoos), ivory(scrimshaw), just to name a few things. But sometimes we may never see all that is written on our skin, and we are at a loss to discern how we might be connnected to the world and each other. The important tattoos are those we get from the sun. The tattoos were a bit more revealing on the sailors in the 1800's.
And our languages imitate Nature. The sun can disappear behind clouds, day turns into night, the water turns white, smoke evaporates into thin air, just like the whale's spout. So, the question might not be, "Will our languages destroy the world?, but as languages are characteristic of Nature herself, the questions might be, "Is Nature inherently self-destructive? Can it last? Can we understand connections that we can't see?"
09-03-2007 12:38 PM
09-04-2007 08:26 AM - edited 09-04-2007 08:41 AM
But our fates are now under more control- we are now under a new layer of skin. And what's worse? Everything under this new layer of skin is a possible subject to Ahab's mind. But what's that? I think I see a cross in Ahab's forehead. Do the lines of the cross become the lines in his face, which later become the lines of the chart?
Some of the symbols and images that influence Ahab appear on the chart, and some are not visible. In other words, our fates are contolled by Ahab's mind, but we do not know all that drives Ahab to hunt the whales- not all of his influences appear on the chart or skin. Influential images sometimes appear on our skin, some do not. But religion is obviously one driving force of Ahab- the Pequod is a Quaker-run operation.
Message Edited by chad on 09-04-2007 08:41 AM
09-04-2007 08:19 PM - edited 09-04-2007 08:45 PM
Break through those layers of commiseration that takes place in bars across the country! Wrench your hearts from your souls! --they are but words, and being such, they carry the same meaning!
Religions are different, but church services meet in one place and time. Religions can be at war- regardless.
Message Edited by chad on 09-04-2007 08:45 PM
09-05-2007 10:54 AM - edited 09-05-2007 10:55 AM
Message Edited by chad on 09-05-2007 10:55 AM
09-06-2007 12:49 AM - edited 09-06-2007 12:57 AM
Message Edited by chad on 09-06-2007 12:57 AM
09-07-2007 09:06 AM
Land was claimed in the name of religion. Bodies of water and lands were named after saints, and borders surrounded the name. See Mohican, by Fennimore-Cooper.
09-08-2007 09:09 AM
09-09-2007 11:41 PM
09-10-2007 08:51 AM - edited 09-10-2007 10:16 AM
Spain was a probably a better idea for me personally, but I don't know....
Message Edited by chad on 09-10-2007 10:16 AM