MY EARLY LIFE~~August 4th - August 10th (Chapters XXI, XXII, XXIII, XXIV - pages 268 - 317)

[bentley]

---

bentley wrote:

Note: We are trying to figure out Winston Churchill's relationship to spiritualism and his account during the Boer War when he escaped.  The following was documented later on but does support the theory that he was dabbling into spiritualism, etc.  

Do not read this if you are worried about spoilers.  This is only posted because of its relevance to the current chapters.

POTENTIAL SPOILERS:  

Regarding Winston Churchill (Spiritualism/Psychic?)

I have found a picture of Winston Churchill in 1908 being allegedly inducted and photographed at Blenheim Palace being installed into the Albion Lodge of the Ancient Order of Druids in 1908.  (This is the oldest existing neo-Druid organization).  You know the Stonehedge worshippers of old.

He also allegedly was very friendly and visited a Helen Duncan in her cell (Helen Duncan was

a medium) who ran into problems with the police because of British Witchcraft laws in 1951.  He had been very friendly with her for many years.  

One of the first things that Winston Churchill repealed when he became prime minister again were these laws as a promise to help her.  There is even an official letter with Winston asking about the tomfoolery related to Helen.  I could post these sites but they are readily available.  Additionally, his bodyguard of 18 years also spoke of his psychic capabilities.  I think Winston thought of himself as rather a medium.  The following is interesting if it loads.

http://www.helenduncan.org.uk/articles/winstoncomments.html 

I think he was an eccentric in the extreme.   

Maybe he was just being political and had his picture taken with the Druids but he is in the picture even though he is not dressed in robes like many of the others are.   

---

By the way, he was also a Free Mason. 

[Timbuktu1]

When I first read his account I gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought that perhaps he was describing something that can happen to someone under extreme pressure.  It's easy to become spiritual/superstitious when your life is on the line.  But the odd thing was that not only did he experience this but he tells us about it.  Seriously.  

Nancy Reagan turned to astrology in a desperate effort to keep her husband "safe".  But she was smart enough to keep quiet about it and kind of apologize for it after it came out.  And she wasn't the president.

When you think about it maybe it was this over the top belief in himself that gave him the strength to do what needed to be done.   

[bentley]

---

Timbuktu1 wrote:

When I first read his account I gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought that perhaps he was describing something that can happen to someone under extreme pressure.  It's easy to become spiritual/superstitious when your life is on the line.  But the odd thing was that not only did he experience this but he tells us about it.  Seriously.  

Nancy Reagan turned to astrology in a desperate effort to keep her husband "safe".  But she was smart enough to keep quiet about it and kind of apologize for it after it came out.  And she wasn't the president.

When you think about it maybe it was this over the top belief in himself that gave him the strength to do what needed to be done.   

---

That is exactly what historical analysts say and psychoanalysts.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt too until I started reading the other and when I saw the picture - well....

He dabbled in many things that interested him and I guess that spiritualism was one of them.  The Dream which is another one of his works shows these side interests.   I do not think that he thought that there was anything odd at all about any of this. 

He was very much one of a kind.  Why you would even tell the world about it yourself is something quite different; you are correct.  A very revealing book.

Bentley 

[Oldesq]

One thing that I think is very interesting is what is missing from Churchill's account of his escape from Pretoria, that being that he left a note behind.  IMHO the note could have been interpreted in two ways.  First, it purported to assure the command that he had not been assisted in his escape and that he was treated well,  but, second, it had a stick in your eye taunt.  I don't have Gilbert with me right now so I will dig up the contents of the note later.  Do you wonder why he omitted that? 

Also, I saw that in April 1900 Captain Haldane (one of the original escape comrades) and a Lieutenant LeMesurier made daring escapes from Pretoria filled with near-misses as well.  I am surprised that Churchill didn't share a small aside with us that Haldane eventually got out. 

[bentley]

---

Oldesq wrote:

One thing that I think is very interesting is what is missing from Churchill's account of his escape from Pretoria, that being that he left a note behind.  IMHO the note could have been interpreted in two ways.  First, it purported to assure the command that he had not been assisted in his escape and that he was treated well,  but, second, it had a stick in your eye taunt.  I don't have Gilbert with me right now so I will dig up the contents of the note later.  Do you wonder why he omitted that? 

Also, I saw that in April 1900 Captain Haldane (one of the original escape comrades) and a Lieutenant LeMesurier made daring escapes from Pretoria filled with near-misses as well.  I am surprised that Churchill didn't share a small aside with us that Haldane eventually got out. 

---

Oldesq,

I would be very interested in seeing the note or hearing of its contents; I am only surmising the tone based upon your post.

It could have been that he wanted the command to know that he was safe and had not been killed indiscriminately (possibly if you believe someone's note); but it would have been left in his own handwriting giving it credibility or

It could have been look at me; I am going to be a great hero and I am very clever and here is a note which you can publish at a later date.  

He certainly knew how to market himself and this escape paved the way for his illustrious career didn't it.  And as far as sharing the limelight; I am not sure what to say about that; because many times he has done that.  Maybe it was just an oversight.  I wonder sometimes at the things he puts in and the things he leaves out.

In the Sandhurst chapter, did he ever mention that he was eighth in his class there; maybe it just slipped my mind.  But I heard that elsewhere in the Buchanan book!  Sometimes he seems to toot his own horn and other times I am not so sure; he seems to be diminishing himself in his own eyes and others.  

~Bentley 

 

[Timbuktu1]

---

bentley wrote:

---

Oldesq wrote:

One thing that I think is very interesting is what is missing from Churchill's account of his escape from Pretoria, that being that he left a note behind.  IMHO the note could have been interpreted in two ways.  First, it purported to assure the command that he had not been assisted in his escape and that he was treated well,  but, second, it had a stick in your eye taunt.  I don't have Gilbert with me right now so I will dig up the contents of the note later.  Do you wonder why he omitted that? 

Also, I saw that in April 1900 Captain Haldane (one of the original escape comrades) and a Lieutenant LeMesurier made daring escapes from Pretoria filled with near-misses as well.  I am surprised that Churchill didn't share a small aside with us that Haldane eventually got out. 

---

Oldesq,

I would be very interested in seeing the note or hearing of its contents; I am only surmising the tone based upon your post.

It could have been that he wanted the command to know that he was safe and had not been killed indiscriminately (possibly if you believe someone's note); but it would have been left in his own handwriting giving it credibility or

It could have been look at me; I am going to be a great hero and I am very clever and here is a note which you can publish at a later date.  

He certainly knew how to market himself and this escape paved the way for his illustrious career didn't it.  And as far as sharing the limelight; I am not sure what to say about that; because many times he has done that.  Maybe it was just an oversight.  I wonder sometimes at the things he puts in and the things he leaves out.

In the Sandhurst chapter, did he ever mention that he was eighth in his class there; maybe it just slipped my mind.  But I heard that elsewhere in the Buchanan book!  Sometimes he seems to toot his own horn and other times I am not so sure; he seems to be diminishing himself in his own eyes and others.  

~Bentley 

 

Yes, I think I do remember that he did well at Sandhurst.  I think he was trying to say that when he was interested and motivated he was capable.  BTW, I just heard John McCain on the View repeating that he graduated 5th from the bottom at Annapolis.  I've heard him say this several times and each time I'm left wondering why is he advertising this?

---

[bentley]

---

Timbuktu1 wrote:

---

bentley wrote:

---

Oldesq wrote:

One thing that I think is very interesting is what is missing from Churchill's account of his escape from Pretoria, that being that he left a note behind.  IMHO the note could have been interpreted in two ways.  First, it purported to assure the command that he had not been assisted in his escape and that he was treated well,  but, second, it had a stick in your eye taunt.  I don't have Gilbert with me right now so I will dig up the contents of the note later.  Do you wonder why he omitted that? 

Also, I saw that in April 1900 Captain Haldane (one of the original escape comrades) and a Lieutenant LeMesurier made daring escapes from Pretoria filled with near-misses as well.  I am surprised that Churchill didn't share a small aside with us that Haldane eventually got out. 

---

Oldesq,

I would be very interested in seeing the note or hearing of its contents; I am only surmising the tone based upon your post.

It could have been that he wanted the command to know that he was safe and had not been killed indiscriminately (possibly if you believe someone's note); but it would have been left in his own handwriting giving it credibility or

It could have been look at me; I am going to be a great hero and I am very clever and here is a note which you can publish at a later date.  

He certainly knew how to market himself and this escape paved the way for his illustrious career didn't it.  And as far as sharing the limelight; I am not sure what to say about that; because many times he has done that.  Maybe it was just an oversight.  I wonder sometimes at the things he puts in and the things he leaves out.

In the Sandhurst chapter, did he ever mention that he was eighth in his class there; maybe it just slipped my mind.  But I heard that elsewhere in the Buchanan book!  Sometimes he seems to toot his own horn and other times I am not so sure; he seems to be diminishing himself in his own eyes and others.  

~Bentley 

 

Yes, I think I do remember that he did well at Sandhurst.  I think he was trying to say that when he was interested and motivated he was capable.  BTW, I just heard John McCain on the View repeating that he graduated 5th from the bottom at Annapolis.  I've heard him say this several times and each time I'm left wondering why is he advertising this?

---

---

I do not remember the chapter giving his class standing though.  I do remember that he mentioned that he was capable when interested.  

Yes, why would someone advertise something like that; is he trying to compete with Bush or appeal to the group in Americana who appreciate their leaders not being intelligent.

Why would you want an unintelligent leader; it beats me.   Getting back to Churchill; I have always thought him a very intelligent and gifted man; though after these chapters an eccentric one.

~Bentley 

[Timbuktu1]

Page 59

My course at Sandhurst soon came to an end.  Instead of creeping in at the bottome, almost by charity, I passed out with honours eighth in my batch of a hundred and fifty.  Imention this because it shows that I could learn quickly enough the things that mattered.  It had been a hard but happy experience. 

[bentley]

---

Timbuktu1 wrote:

Page 59

My course at Sandhurst soon came to an end.  Instead of creeping in at the bottome, almost by charity, I passed out with honours eighth in my batch of a hundred and fifty.  Imention this because it shows that I could learn quickly enough the things that mattered.  It had been a hard but happy experience. 

---

I wondered whether I had missed it; so he did acknowledge it; but what about that he could learn quickly enough the things that mattered; I think that Harrow tried to teach him what mattered too.  Thank you Timbuktu; I thought that it must have been mentioned somewhere. 

[Oldesq]

---

bentley wrote:

I wondered whether I had missed it; so he did acknowledge it; but what about that he could learn quickly enough the things that mattered; I think that Harrow tried to teach him what mattered too.  Thank you Timbuktu; I thought that it must have been mentioned somewhere. 

---

I think it was military strategy (Sandhurst) versus Latin and Greek (Harrow).

[Timbuktu1]

Right.  Remember his lesson about addressing a "table" in the proper Latin form?

[bentley]

---

Oldesq wrote:

---

bentley wrote:

I wondered whether I had missed it; so he did acknowledge it; but what about that he could learn quickly enough the things that mattered; I think that Harrow tried to teach him what mattered too.  Thank you Timbuktu; I thought that it must have been mentioned somewhere. 

---

I think it was military strategy (Sandhurst) versus Latin and Greek (Harrow).

---

More than likely; although there were other subjects he could have excelled in at Harrow; it is funny he spurned Latin and Greek from what I recall yet yearned later on for what he had spurned.  I think he always felt as an adult that he had missed out; even though he became a self made man with the books his mother sent him.  Curious; I always thought that this omission in his education made him feel inferior in some way like he did not measure up.   

[Oldesq]

Don't we all experience those feelings though?  Even on those subjects that I feel very informed about I always think others may know more than I do.  Although I must say that I am good at faking it because people are amazed when I express those self-doubts aloud.

[Timbuktu1]

Yes.  I think it takes maturity to realize the importance of an education.  

[bentley]

---

Oldesq wrote:
Don't we all experience those feelings though?  Even on those subjects that I feel very informed about I always think others may know more than I do.  Although I must say that I am good at faking it because people are amazed when I express those self-doubts aloud.

---

Oldesq, I do not know you well at all; but I suspect all of the self doubts we all have originated in child hood (not that our parents did not do the best they could) but they were more than likely exacting and sought perfection.  I think in my case I tried to always live up to the ideal.  Nobody would realize that about me either.  But surprisingly enough, there are many people who do not have these self doubts at all and feel very entitled and superior.  Believe me, there are a lot of them out in the world.   

[bentley]

---

Timbuktu1 wrote:
Yes.  I think it takes maturity to realize the importance of an education.  

---

I agree with that too. 

[Oldesq]

Reply in off topic cafe

---

bentley wrote:

---

Timbuktu1 wrote:
Yes.  I think it takes maturity to realize the importance of an education.  

---

I agree with that too. 

---

[bentley]

---

Oldesq wrote:
Reply in off topic cafe

---

bentley wrote:

---

Timbuktu1 wrote:
Yes.  I think it takes maturity to realize the importance of an education.  

---

I agree with that too. 

---

---

Excellent Oldesq and I saw the reply; you should try out next time the new Greek landing place.  

[Oldesq]

Bentley,

Sorry but it took me some time to find the contents of the note that WSC left behind on his escape.  I truly cannot tell if he is being tongue in check or respectful but I think the circumstances say even more than the note itself- the note was in the Ladysmith book rather than the Gilbert:

While I was looking about for means, and awaiting an opportunity to break out of the Model Schools, I made every preparation to make a graceful exit when the moment should arrive. I gave full instructions to my friends as to what was to be done with my clothes and the effects I had accumulated during my stay; I paid my account to date with the excellent Boshof; cashed a cheque on him for 20l.; changed some of the notes I had always concealed on my person since my capture into gold; and lastly, that there might be no unnecessary unpleasantness, I wrote the following letter to the Secretary of State:

States Model Schools Prison: December 10, 1899.

Sir,—I have the honour to inform you that as I do not consider that your Government have any right to detain me as a military prisoner, I have decided to escape from your custody. I have every confidence in the arrangements I have made with my friends outside, and I do not therefore expect to have another opportunity of seeing you. I therefore take this occasion to observe that I consider your treatment of prisoners is correct and humane, and that I see no grounds for complaint. When I return to the British lines I will make a public statement to this effect. I have also to thank you personally for your civility to me, and to express the hope that we may meet again at Pretoria before very long, and under different circumstances. Regretting that I am unable to bid you a more ceremonious or a personal farewell,
I have the honour, to be, Sir,
Your most obedient servant,
WINSTON CHURCHILL.

To Mr. de Souza,
Secretary of War, South African Republic.

I arranged that this letter, which I took great pleasure in writing, should be left on my bed, and discovered so soon as my flight was known.

[bentley]

---

Oldesq wrote:

Bentley,

Sorry but it took me some time to find the contents of the note that WSC left behind on his escape.  I truly cannot tell if he is being tongue in check or respectful but I think the circumstances say even more than the note itself- the note was in the Ladysmith book rather than the Gilbert:

While I was looking about for means, and awaiting an opportunity to break out of the Model Schools, I made every preparation to make a graceful exit when the moment should arrive. I gave full instructions to my friends as to what was to be done with my clothes and the effects I had accumulated during my stay; I paid my account to date with the excellent Boshof; cashed a cheque on him for 20l.; changed some of the notes I had always concealed on my person since my capture into gold; and lastly, that there might be no unnecessary unpleasantness, I wrote the following letter to the Secretary of State:

States Model Schools Prison: December 10, 1899.

Sir,—I have the honour to inform you that as I do not consider that your Government have any right to detain me as a military prisoner, I have decided to escape from your custody. I have every confidence in the arrangements I have made with my friends outside, and I do not therefore expect to have another opportunity of seeing you. I therefore take this occasion to observe that I consider your treatment of prisoners is correct and humane, and that I see no grounds for complaint. When I return to the British lines I will make a public statement to this effect. I have also to thank you personally for your civility to me, and to express the hope that we may meet again at Pretoria before very long, and under different circumstances. Regretting that I am unable to bid you a more ceremonious or a personal farewell,
I have the honour, to be, Sir,
Your most obedient servant,
WINSTON CHURCHILL.

To Mr. de Souza,
Secretary of War, South African Republic.

I arranged that this letter, which I took great pleasure in writing, should be left on my bed, and discovered so soon as my flight was known.

---

Oldesq, I am with you on this one; I honestly cannot tell.    But thank you for posting; it is a most interesting letter to write to you captor.  

~Bentley