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bentley
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MY EARLY LIFE~~WHO INFLUENCED WINSTON CHURCHILL (Influencers in Winston's Life)

In discussing some ideas for ancillary threads with Oldesq, one idea came to mind since most of us believe that Winston Churchill was a great statesman and a force to be reckoned with; who were his influencers, who were the people he admired most and sought their advise and counsel; who made a difference in his life.

We all know that Mrs. Everest was a big early influence; but we are discovering that there were many others who might have been personal heroes in Winston Churchill's life and in his eyes.

This thread is being opened in order for us to discuss who those people were, how they influenced Winston Churchill, during what time in his life, and why they made such an impact on him.

One early person was Mrs. Everest who we can also talk about a little bit more in depth on this thread, maybe Doctor Welldon at Harrow, or even his English teacher Mr. Somervell or maybe some of his father's old friends. I think it would be fun to talk about all of these people; maybe some famous, maybe some not and find out what was so wonderful about these individuals which influenced such a great man and maybe helped him become what he became in later life and why he is so memorialized today.

Possibly we can learn from this exercise as well and we might be able to understand or discuss at least what makes someone a great person in their own right.

Do jump into the discussion and there is only one rule: we are talking about Winston Churchill and the influencers on his life which might have made him greater than he otherwise might have been. Of course, we all know that he is the one who had the most to do with the great esteem and respect that he richly deserved and still does today.

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Colonel Brabazon

Colonel Brabazon gets my vote as an influencer of WSC.  In Brabazon, WSC found the embodiment of the Victorian military ideal, a man who commanded and earned respect of his commanders and subalterns alike.  You can tell that Churchill greatly admired him and treats the speech impediment (a problem which WSC also suffered) with droll humor.  I think in Brabazon WSC found that man who had an unerring sense of right even when it conflicted with official military politics.  I enjoyed the story where through an "enbarrassing situation conceivable only in the British army" (p. 68) Brabazon was forced to serve under a man he was superior to in rank and Brabazon jumped at the first opportunity to right the situation when that man abused the power.  It is also clear that WSC admired Brabazon for being very well read (p. 69).  He also admired Brabazon for his common sense when it came to the care and comfort of his men as regarded the training uniform- too bad Brabazon had to sacrifice his "imperial" mustache for that impertinence.  (p. 70). 
 
I would love to know what tone WSC meant to use when describing Brabazon finally as having the fundamental tenets: Protection, Conscription and the revival of the Contagious Disease Acts. (p. 71)  FYI- the Contagious Disease Acts were passed in the late 1860s as a means of controlling venereal disease in military camps.  Under the Acts, any woman believed to be a prostitute could be immediately seized and subjected to a examination by police physicians and held for treatment, originally for as little as three months and later for as long as a year.  Because professional military were discouraged from marrying, prostitution was considered a necessary evil.  Of course, the indignities of the Acts did not apply to customers of prostitutes and, thus, has little effect on the transmission of veneral disease to the troops.     
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Re: Colonel Brabazon


Oldesq wrote:
Colonel Brabazon gets my vote as an influencer of WSC.  In Brabazon, WSC found the embodiment of the Victorian military ideal, a man who commanded and earned respect of his commanders and subalterns alike.  You can tell that Churchill greatly admired him and treats the speech impediment (a problem which WSC also suffered) with droll humor.  I think in Brabazon WSC found that man who had an unerring sense of right even when it conflicted with official military politics.  I enjoyed the story where through an "enbarrassing situation conceivable only in the British army" (p. 68) Brabazon was forced to serve under a man he was superior to in rank and Brabazon jumped at the first opportunity to right the situation when that man abused the power.  It is also clear that WSC admired Brabazon for being very well read (p. 69).  He also admired Brabazon for his common sense when it came to the care and comfort of his men as regarded the training uniform- too bad Brabazon had to sacrifice his "imperial" mustache for that impertinence.  (p. 70). 
 
I would love to know what tone WSC meant to use when describing Brabazon finally as having the fundamental tenets: Protection, Conscription and the revival of the Contagious Disease Acts. (p. 71)  FYI- the Contagious Disease Acts were passed in the late 1860s as a means of controlling venereal disease in military camps.  Under the Acts, any woman believed to be a prostitute could be immediately seized and subjected to a examination by police physicians and held for treatment, originally for as little as three months and later for as long as a year.  Because professional military were discouraged from marrying, prostitution was considered a necessary evil.  Of course, the indignities of the Acts did not apply to customers of prostitutes and, thus, has little effect on the transmission of veneral disease to the troops.     





I think that it would have been interesting to talk to Winston about these tenets of Brabazon (it did seem tongue in cheek). Brabazon was definately an influence on Winston.
I found a couple of writeups on him; but would certainly welcome more information about the man as we progress through the book. Contagious diseases seem to have run rampant without penicillin and some of the antibiotics that are available today. Maybe Brabazon might have seen more of this in the military camps than he wanted to see and it worried him.

Some write-ups:

http://www.brabazonarchive.com/Pages/Major-General%20John%20Palmer%20Brabazon.htm

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=173

Interesting Time Article (1941):

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,795497,00.html?promoid=googlep
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William Bourke Cockran: Churchill's American Mentor

“THE EARTH IS A GENEROUS MOTHER”

William Bourke Cockran: Churchill’s American Mentor

Curt J. Zoller


http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=926

There is also a book which discusses Winston's relationship with Cockran; I referred to it in the glossary (glossary excerpt below)

6. Becoming Winston Churchill, The Untold Story of Young Winston and His American Mentor by Michael McMenamin, Curt J. Zoller, Curt Zoller

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Becoming-Winston-Churchill/Michael-McMenamin/e/9781846450051/?itm=3...

The above book looks rather interesting because it really deals with a mentor that Winston Churchill had because of the relationship his mother Lady Churchill had with Bourke Cockran.
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Lord Randolph Churchill

Whether Lord Randolph was a good father or not is certainly a matter of discussion; but there is no doubt that Lord Randolph's very existence was a influence in Winston's life and what he actually was able to accomplish and how he accomplished it (I think if had everything to do with his father and son relationship)

The Writing of Lord Randolph Churchill

By John G. Plumpton
Published in Finest Hour 51, Spring 1986

This article is from the Churchill Center archives and is really a brilliant piece. It actually explains a lot; that Winston knew about his father's illness and the details (he had gotten the details from the doctors); that he revered his father no matter what their father and son relationship had been.

Plumpton notes how Churchill worshipped the memory of his father and really agonized over it:

"In his own writings Winston provides us with considerable evidence of filial hero-worship. In Thoughts and Adventures, he writes:

The greatest and most powerful influence in my early life was of course my father. . . .1 conceived an intense admiration and affection for him - and, after his death, for his memory. I read industriously almost every word he had ever spoken and learnt by heart large portions of his speeches.2"
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Re: MY EARLY LIFE~~WHO INFLUENCED WINSTON CHURCHILL (Influencers in Winston's Life)

John Churchill - The first Duke of Marlborough (who's father incidentally was called Sir Winston Churchill) I belive was great influence on Churchill as he grew older, specifically after he researched and wrote Marlborough his life and times.

I have been researching Churchill for the second volume in my series of books about him called "What Would Churchill Do?" which takes Churchill’s talents for managing the war and translates them into personal business advice.

When you compare the two great men it is striking the similarities between them even though they lived 250 years apart, a lot of the characteristics Churchill displayed in WW2 are very similair to those of Marlborough during the war of the Spanish succession at the beginning of the the 18th century.

Both men were pivotal in saving Europe from someone who wanted to impose his unquestioned authority upon the people.

Both were ejected from power at their point of triumph, and both were later revered by the people they saved.

If you like a good thick book you can do a lot worse than read Volumes 1 + 2 of Marlborough his life and times.

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Re: MY EARLY LIFE~~WHO INFLUENCED WINSTON CHURCHILL (Influencers in Winston's Life)


Stuart_Finlay wrote:

John Churchill - The first Duke of Marlborough (who's father incidentally was called Sir Winston Churchill) I belive was great influence on Churchill as he grew older, specifically after he researched and wrote Marlborough his life and times.

I have been researching Churchill for the second volume in my series of books about him called "What Would Churchill Do?" which takes Churchill’s talents for managing the war and translates them into personal business advice.

When you compare the two great men it is striking the similarities between them even though they lived 250 years apart, a lot of the characteristics Churchill displayed in WW2 are very similair to those of Marlborough during the war of the Spanish succession at the beginning of the the 18th century.

Both men were pivotal in saving Europe from someone who wanted to impose his unquestioned authority upon the people.

Both were ejected from power at their point of triumph, and both were later revered by the people they saved.

If you like a good thick book you can do a lot worse than read Volumes 1 + 2 of Marlborough his life and times.






Thank you Stuart; I am so glad that you joined in the discussion; please feel free to join us on any of the threads. Your books also sound fascinating. I had toyed with the idea of reading those two volumes on Marlborough. I guess you are saying that while researching one of his ancestors what he discovered had a great influence on how he viewed who he was, what he had accomplished and how folks might interpret it. I see the similarities very strikingly. Again, your point has added a lot to this thread and conversation.

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Re: MY EARLY LIFE~~WHO INFLUENCED WINSTON CHURCHILL (Influencers in Winston's Life)

INTERESTING WRITE-UP; NOT SURE I AGREE WITH ALL THE DETAILS - (BUT A GOOD OVERALL OUTLINE)

http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/churchill2.htm
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Re: MY EARLY LIFE~~WHO INFLUENCED WINSTON CHURCHILL (Influencers in Winston's Life)

Some great photos and some interesting observations; a great younger photo of Winston which I have never seen (very young photo of him); a real cute little boy; some interesting observations, details some info on the work The Dream:


http://www.levenger.com/press/LPFeatures_ChurchDream.asp
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Re: MY EARLY LIFE~~MRS. EVEREST

Mrs. Everest was one of the most loved of his influencers right up until he died. I think from her he felt very loved as a little boy.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:epuYZ6-2xrIJ:www.purejoypublications.com/includes/excerpts/winston1.pdf+Who+influenced+Winston+Churchill&hl=en&ct...
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Re: Colonel Brabazon

Hmmm, I wonder if Buchannon read the Time article?
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Re: Colonel Brabazon



Timbuktu1 wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if Buchannon read the Time article?




Who knows, maybe he did (lol).
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Re: William Bourke Cockran

This is a letter that Winston wrote to his brother Jack; a splendid letter which describes his impression of American (lol), judges and juries, firehouses, American journalists, etc.

A delight to read since this was written when he was on his way to his first big war adventure in Cuba. This url is terrific and was part of the Library of Congress exhibit on Winston. It appears that he stayed at first with Cockran.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/interactive/_html/wc0019.html
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Re: Clementine (his wife)

Clementine had an awful lot of influence on Winston as did his younger daughter Mary. But Clementine understood Winston having had indifferent parents very similar to Winston's.

Clementine could admonish Winston and get away with it.

"She was the only person who could handle the unpredictable Churchill; soothing tantrums, insuring he had precious hours of relaxation during the Second World War, sometimes advising him on a course of action or a speech, but always so tactfully that he thought the idea was his own. Often she would quietly comment as he drafted a fiery speech: "Winston, I wouldn't say that." He usually took her advice.

- Source: The Churchill Center

A TRIUMPHANT 56 YEAR MARRIAGE:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=758
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Re: Clementine (his wife)



bentley wrote:
Clementine had an awful lot of influence on Winston as did his younger daughter Mary. But Clementine understood Winston having had indifferent parents very similar to Winston's.

Clementine could admonish Winston and get away with it.

"She was the only person who could handle the unpredictable Churchill; soothing tantrums, insuring he had precious hours of relaxation during the Second World War, sometimes advising him on a course of action or a speech, but always so tactfully that he thought the idea was his own. Often she would quietly comment as he drafted a fiery speech: "Winston, I wouldn't say that." He usually took her advice.

- Source: The Churchill Center

A TRIUMPHANT 56 YEAR MARRIAGE:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=758




This was described in the DVD. His secretary said that he was the most inconsiderate man she'd ever met. Very demanding. But somehow it worked with Clementine. He consulted with her on everything too. Lucky for both of them.
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Re: Clementine (his wife)



Timbuktu1 wrote:


bentley wrote:
Clementine had an awful lot of influence on Winston as did his younger daughter Mary. But Clementine understood Winston having had indifferent parents very similar to Winston's.

Clementine could admonish Winston and get away with it.

"She was the only person who could handle the unpredictable Churchill; soothing tantrums, insuring he had precious hours of relaxation during the Second World War, sometimes advising him on a course of action or a speech, but always so tactfully that he thought the idea was his own. Often she would quietly comment as he drafted a fiery speech: "Winston, I wouldn't say that." He usually took her advice.

- Source: The Churchill Center

A TRIUMPHANT 56 YEAR MARRIAGE:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=758




This was described in the DVD. His secretary said that he was the most inconsiderate man she'd ever met. Very demanding. But somehow it worked with Clementine. He consulted with her on everything too. Lucky for both of them.




I think so; I think he wanted a happy marriage and basically said he got married and lived happily ever after; a real turning point in his life.
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Re: Clementine (his wife): Engagement Photo

Clementine and Winston: I believe this was their published engagement photo; a week before their marriage (wouldn't this couple see so much in their married life); Clementine knew how to get around Winston.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/interactive/_html/wc0048.html
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Re: Clementine (his wife): Engagement Photo

[ Edited ]
Gilbert writes that they first met 10 years earlier with WSC being so stumbling shy as to not take a chance to speak to Clementine and missing the opportunity.


Message Edited by Oldesq on 07-14-2008 01:12 PM
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Re: Clementine (his wife): Engagement Photo


Oldesq wrote:
Gilbert writes that they first met 10 years earlier with WSC being so stumbling shy as to not take a chance to speak to Clementine and missing the opportunity.


Message Edited by Oldesq on 07-14-2008 01:12 PM




I haven't read Gilbert's biography; but at the Churchill Museum; there was a display regarding their courtship and that story which I do not believe was Churchill folklore was cited. I don't think he spoke two words and walked away I think or something totally embarrassing; I guess he was smitten from the get go.

I think that is sweet in a way.