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bentley
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]
Here is the url of the book kitkat is referring to on the barnes and noble site:

The Winthrop Woman by Seton


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&bnit=H&bnrefer=NYHBC&EAN=97815565264...

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:26 PM
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jimmackin
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]
To the earlier point regarding the Mayflower Compact as a key beginning to the United States, I think I see Philbrook's point that it was key to be based on civil consent rather than divine decree. And yet is was so local - not directly emanating from mother England, and well before the later colony of Massachussetts.

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]

jimmackin wrote:
To the earlier point regarding the Mayflower Compact as a key beginning to the United States, I think I see Philbrook's point that it was key to be based on civil consent rather than divine decree. And yet is was so local - not directly emanating from mother England, and well before the later colony of Massachussetts.




Jim,

Yes, and to think that Robinson had much to do with that interested me. I thought that it was important in that it was the first consensus agreement which segregated church and state. Was the Mayflower Covenant at all important to any of the other colonies aside from Plymouth. Did the Massachusetts Bay Colony which didn't begin until 10 years later ever take note of what came before or that document? Did the document influence any settlers that came after the Pilgrims? The Puritans were quite a different breed than the Pilgrims.

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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bentley
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]

jimmackin wrote:
To the earlier point regarding the Mayflower Compact as a key beginning to the United States, I think I see Philbrook's point that it was key to be based on civil consent rather than divine decree. And yet is was so local - not directly emanating from mother England, and well before the later colony of Massachussetts.




Jim, I am not sure if you have gotten used to posting yet on the site. But if you want to refer to any specific post that you want to respond to specifically. All you have to do is just go to that post click on reply which would be to the upper left of the post itself. A blank box will appear; then you just immediately click Quote Post which is to the upper right. Then scroll down after the last blockquote and br and press enter and then just type in whatever you want. You can preview your post if you like and all of the codes disappear; then once you like what you see..you can then hit submit post.

Regards,

Bentley

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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CallMeLeo
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS

[ Edited ]
The initial survival of pilgrim colony appeared to have relied a great deal on the depopulation of the Native Americans by the plague. Their lack of strength made them more tolerant of the pilgrims when the natives already had sufficient reason to hate and be suspicious of the Europeans.

Indeed, the success of the settlement at Plymouth could be said to have been pure chance.

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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bentley
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS

[ Edited ]

CallMeLeo wrote:
The initial survival of pilgrim colony appeared to have relied a great deal on the depopulation of the Native Americans by the plague. Their lack of strength made them more tolerant of the pilgrims when the natives already had sufficient reason to hate and be suspicious of the Europeans.

Indeed, the success of the settlement at Plymouth could be said to have been pure chance.




There seemed to be plenty enough Indians to take on this small band if this was the intention of Massasoit with his friends the Massachusetts and the Nausets. And if the Pokanokets did not get the Pilgrims, the Narragansetts could. The Pilgrims were fortunate that Squanto persuaded Massasoit to see things differently never mind his ulterior motives. It was a combination of Brewster's and Winslow's efforts as well as some others (Bradford especially, as well as Standish and Hopkins initially).

You are correct that anything could have gone wrong at any time, and also with the powerplay of Squanto, things could have turned out for the worse had it not been for Bradford's quick action with firing the cannon.

I do not think that the success of the settlement was pure chance..it was diligence, hard work, sacrifice, trials and tribulations, and strict discipline and the good of the group over the individual. Also, the Pilgrims were used to adversity. But they had complete faith in God and took each day as it came. They were survivors.

Message Edited by bentley on 09-11-2007 08:58 PM

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS

[ Edited ]
I enjoyed Bradford's account of the shallop searching for a livable location for their settlement. It seemed as if something could go wrong it did. "glazed" with salt spray as they set sail, indian uprisings, their shallop being tossed and turned and eventually broken by the winds, almost crashing onto a beach ...........It's almost laughable. Surely if indian eyes were watching some if not all of this, they were probably laughing too. Perhaps thinking that these pilgrims had no idea what they were doing!

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS

[ Edited ]

Carmenere_lady wrote:
I enjoyed Bradford's account of the shallop searching for a livable location for their settlement. It seemed as if something could go wrong it did. "glazed" with salt spray as they set sail, indian uprisings, their shallop being tossed and turned and eventually broken by the winds, almost crashing onto a beach ...........It's almost laughable. Surely if indian eyes were watching some if not all of this, they were probably laughing too. Perhaps thinking that these pilgrims had no idea what they were doing!




They were survivors who could handle every type of adversity.

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]
SPOILER ALERT!!

Hi Bentley~

Great questions! I wondered that as well since, as we see from the progression of time, the Plymouth colony really takes a dive in prominence and importance with the growth of the Puritan colonies around it. Although I have not yet finished the book, I find it a bit ironic that the United States places such a significant importance on the Mayflower Compact when Plymouth Plantation started slipping into "backwater town" with the rise of the Massachusettes Bay settlements. It is another interesting aside when considering history: why do certain events or certain productions rise to levels of such fame and prominence considering their meager contemporary circumstances? There are countless examples of historical events or artifacts that have such a huge significance today but meant very little in their own time ...

Thanks!
Rachel






Jim,

Yes, and to think that Robinson had much to do with that interested me. I thought that it was important in that it was the first consensus agreement which segregated church and state. Was the Mayflower Covenant at all important to any of the other colonies aside from Plymouth. Did the Massachusetts Bay Colony which didn't begin until 10 years later ever take note of what came before or that document? Did the document influence any settlers that came after the Pilgrims? The Puritans were quite a different breed than the Pilgrims.



Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:27 PM
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]
Bentley - Thanks for the tip. I'll be using it soon.

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:28 PM
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]

Bastet wrote:
SPOILER ALERT!!

Hi Bentley~

Great questions! I wondered that as well since, as we see from the progression of time, the Plymouth colony really takes a dive in prominence and importance with the growth of the Puritan colonies around it. Although I have not yet finished the book, I find it a bit ironic that the United States places such a significant importance on the Mayflower Compact when Plymouth Plantation started slipping into "backwater town" with the rise of the Massachusettes Bay settlements. It is another interesting aside when considering history: why do certain events or certain productions rise to levels of such fame and prominence considering their meager contemporary circumstances? There are countless examples of historical events or artifacts that have such a huge significance today but meant very little in their own time ...

Thanks!
Rachel





Hi Rachel,


A history major friend of mine once told me that the Mayflower group became so prominent due to its promotion by the ancestors of those who arrived on the Mayflower, and there were plenty of them! It became prestigious to have been related to one of these tough and steadfast people. In addition to that, we know that many may have arrived before the Mayflower but none may have been so completely documented by its travelers, such as Wm Bradford's journals.

Message Edited by Carmenere_lady on 09-17-2007 06:05 AM

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:28 PM
Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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bentley
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]

Bastet wrote:
SPOILER ALERT!!

Hi Bentley~

Great questions! I wondered that as well since, as we see from the progression of time, the Plymouth colony really takes a dive in prominence and importance with the growth of the Puritan colonies around it. Although I have not yet finished the book, I find it a bit ironic that the United States places such a significant importance on the Mayflower Compact when Plymouth Plantation started slipping into "backwater town" with the rise of the Massachusettes Bay settlements. It is another interesting aside when considering history: why do certain events or certain productions rise to levels of such fame and prominence considering their meager contemporary circumstances? There are countless examples of historical events or artifacts that have such a huge significance today but meant very little in their own time ...

Thanks!
Rachel






Jim,

Yes, and to think that Robinson had much to do with that interested me. I thought that it was important in that it was the first consensus agreement which segregated church and state. Was the Mayflower Covenant at all important to any of the other colonies aside from Plymouth. Did the Massachusetts Bay Colony which didn't begin until 10 years later ever take note of what came before or that document? Did the document influence any settlers that came after the Pilgrims? The Puritans were quite a different breed than the Pilgrims.






Thank you Rachel..everything seemed to take off with the Massachusetts Bay settlements and yet the Pilgrims and others did the really hard work. I still would like to know what the Mayflower Covenant had in terms of impact or influence on others who came afterwards. Maybe it had no impact?

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:28 PM
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bentley
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Mayflower: Re: Part I: Discovery PILGRIMS VERSUS PURITANS

[ Edited ]

Carmenere_lady wrote:

Bastet wrote:
SPOILER ALERT!!

Hi Bentley~

Great questions! I wondered that as well since, as we see from the progression of time, the Plymouth colony really takes a dive in prominence and importance with the growth of the Puritan colonies around it. Although I have not yet finished the book, I find it a bit ironic that the United States places such a significant importance on the Mayflower Compact when Plymouth Plantation started slipping into "backwater town" with the rise of the Massachusettes Bay settlements. It is another interesting aside when considering history: why do certain events or certain productions rise to levels of such fame and prominence considering their meager contemporary circumstances? There are countless examples of historical events or artifacts that have such a huge significance today but meant very little in their own time ...

Thanks!
Rachel





Hi Rachel,


A history major friend of mine once told me that the Mayflower group became so prominent due to its promotion by the ancestors of those who arrived on the Mayflower, and there were plenty of them! It became prestigious to have been related to one of these tough and steadfast people. In addition to that, we know that many may have arrived before the Mayflower but none may have been so completely documented by its travelers, such as Wm Bradford's journals.

Message Edited by Carmenere_lady on 09-17-2007 06:05

AM





Yes,,that is true I think as well. So many want to be associated with those who were so steadfast and brave as the Pilgrims..it is like a red badge of courage having been handed down through generations. We owe a lot to Bradford's journals and the writings of Winslow.

Message Edited by Maria_H on 09-26-2007 04:28 PM