Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : Truth.

[Everyman]

I don't have time to read all the dozens of links you love to embed.  If you have something to say, say it outright and support it with links.  That's what I try to do.  I don't expect people to decipher what I mean by reading dozens of embedded links.  They are there a footnotes, documenting facts, not as appendices to a post.

All you mentioned was the uniforms.  You said nothing about activities.  If you wanted to talk about activities, you should have done so.

I respond to your posts, not to all the things in all the links you toss in.  If I tried to do that, it would take all the bandwidth BN has, and more.

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Choisya wrote:

Yours was the 'straw man' argument in going off on a tangent about 'uniforms' when the embedded link I provided was there to give extensive information on Hitler's reason for setting up the HYM and of their infamous activities within it, not about their uniforms.  I took exception to your inference that because all the European youth movements wore uniforms at this period they were the same.  I was not arguing about uniforms, I was arguing about the activities the HYM engaged in. At no time have you acknowledged the infamy of these activities but instead you continue to propound straw man arguments about uniforms.    

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Everyman wrote:

 Choisya criticised my post by saying: "The truth is that to compare the Hitler Youth Movement to the Boy Scout and Girl Guide Movement is an insult to the thousands of young people who grew up in those organisations and who fought in both world wars. "  As though I had made a general comparison of the two.  Which I had not, and it is both dishonest and shameful to imply that I had.

All I said about the issue was "As to the Hitler Youth wearing military-style uniforms, that is pretty meaningless.  After all, Baden-Powell's English Scouts wore military-style uniforms, in at least some cases deliberately chosen for their military associations.   And as the Wikipedia article on B-P points out, "Several of his military books, written for military reconnaissance and scout training in his African years, were also read by boys. Based on those earlier books, he wrote Scouting for Boys, published in 1908 by Pearson, for youth readership."  Indeed, the very term scout had for him a military connotation.  So it's pretty ironical to criticize the Hitler Youth for having military-style uniforms when the major British youth movement had the same.   It was just the way things were done in Europe at that time of history, and was nothing unique to Hitler or Germany."

This is another example of your frequent practice of changing the ground in the middle of a discussion and setting up false straw men for the fun of knocking them down.  I did not compare the Hitler Youth to the Boy Scout movement (and I didn't even mention the Girl Guide movement, hyour bringing that in is ) other than to uniforms and the overall military aspects of the two organizations.

All that you said in your initial post that I responded to was:  "Historical accuracy also leads me to point out that the Nuremberg Rallies were rallies of members of the National Socialist Party and its spin-off, the Hitler Youth movement, who wore military style uniforms."   You didn't say anything about the activities of the Hitler Youth, anything about what they stood for, but based your criticism only on the fact that they wore military style uniforms.  I accurately pointed out that so did the Baden-Powell Scouts.  If you don't like that aspect of the Scouts, okay, but it was there in both England and Germany, and puffing getting all indignant at me doesn't change that reality.

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[Everyman]

Choisya wrote in part:  yes, the HYM were active in the Jewish ghettoes of Warsaw from the outset.

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?  That members of the Hitler Youth while still members of the HY were active in the Warsaw ghettoes?  

I have no doubt that many of the Hitler Youth had by 1939 joined the military, and as members of the army or other armed forces were involved in the Polish invasion.  But that's a whole different thing.  Some of Baden-Powell's scouts undoubtedly had joined the British air forces and were involved in the bombing of Dresden, but we don't blame that bombing on the scout movement.

This site on the Hitler Youth  doesn't have any mention of activites in Poland.  It mentions such activities as "serving first as special postmen delivering draft notices in their neighborhoods along with monthly ration cards. They also went door to door collecting scrap metals and other needed war materials" and "functioning as air raid wardens and anti-aircraft (flak) gun assistants in Berlin and other cities since the outbreak of war."  It contends that "their first action" came in August, 1940 in the Allied bombing of Berlin.

This doesn't prove, of course, that Hitler Youth weren't active in the Polish ghettoes, but it certainly raises the question whether they in fact were.  Do you have any evidence to support your statement?

Message Edited by Everyman on 08-04-2008 01:46 PM

[Everyman]

jplatzer:  would you define for me, please, what definition you use for "propaganda"?  That, of course, is a critical question in discussing what constitutes propaganda. 

The on-line Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it as "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person...ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect"

That's such a broad definition, it certainly takes in Triumph of the Will, but it also takes in George Will's latest column for Newsweek, almost all of Michael Moore's film work and indeed almost every book review in the New York Review of Books, most of which are spreading ideas to help or injure the author of the work.   Or were you using the term in a narrower sense than this, and if so what sense?

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jplatzer wrote:

Choisya -

Thanks for all of your valuable insight. You provide alot of great background material. I'm looking forward to your thoughts when we get to Herodotus next month.

I liked your comments about the Reifenstahl film. It's definitely a propaganda film of the highest order. I agree with you that although Hitler and the Nazis had an anti-Semite platform, they got the German people to embrace them by perpetuating a strong German nationalism and blaming the "failure" of WWI and the Treay of Versailles (which they abhorred) to those they deemed the "November criminals". (i.e. the men who formed the Weimar Republic. Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer is an excellent book on all of this.

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[bentley]

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Choisya wrote:

Which translation are you/others using Bentley?  I have an old Penguin somewhere.

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bentley wrote:

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Oldesq wrote:
I am looking forward to exploring the Histories together although all I remember from a reading a long time ago is that there is a lot of stealth boiling and serving one's relations to an unknowing diner as revenge!

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Oldesq, 

Well you know since we haven't anything one way or another I will put a syllabus up for the Histories starting September 2nd. Hopefully, we will get the green light or get a response.

Bentley 

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Bentley responded: 

Penguin; I am open to leaving this to the group to decide which translation they would like to use; let us face it; this work is also offered free on line and folks should be free to decide to use the one they want and the one they can afford.

The discussion will take 14 weeks; it will start September 2nd and end on December 7th. 

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[Everyman]

The discussion will take 14 weeks; it will start September 2nd and end on December 7th.

A notable ending date for a History board.

[Timbuktu1]

Thanks Choisya, I'll check it out. 

Speaking of India, I noticed a small article in this week's "Time" magazine about a series of coordinated terrorist attacks there.  I couldn't help thinking how easily ignored these attacks are, when they're in India... 

[Timbuktu1]

I hope we can make it work.  I was a little worried as I'm committed to  taking two courses in September and this book club.  I was so happy and relieved to discover that one of the courses will require reading Herodotus!  I read about half of it a year or so ago but it's one of those books that really deserve a thorough re-reading.  

[bentley]

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Everyman wrote:

The discussion will take 14 weeks; it will start September 2nd and end on December 7th.

A notable ending date for a History board.

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Totally unintentional I can assure you; no symbolism or connection with Pearl Harbor.

Bentley 

Message Edited by bentley on 08-04-2008 04:27 PM

[Everyman]

We'll have to see whether we can find an ancient equivalent to Pearl Harbor in Herodotus!

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bentley wrote:

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Everyman wrote:

The discussion will take 14 weeks; it will start September 2nd and end on December 7th.

A notable ending date for a History board.

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Totally unintentional I can assure you; no symbolism or connection with Pearl Harbor.

Bentley

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[Choisya]

Your link doesn't work and you have objected to my giving links because you do not have time to read their contents. I am unwilling to look up or give any more links than I have given already.  Whitewash the Hitler Youth if you will, there is plenty of evidence from people who suffered at their hands out there and it is their testimony that I stand by. 

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Everyman wrote:

Choisya wrote in part:  yes, the HYM were active in the Jewish ghettoes of Warsaw from the outset.

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?  That members of the Hitler Youth while still members of the HY were active in the Warsaw ghettoes?  

I have no doubt that many of the Hitler Youth had by 1939 joined the military, and as members of the army or other armed forces were involved in the Polish invasion.  But that's a whole different thing.  Some of Baden-Powell's scouts undoubtedly had joined the British air forces and were involved in the bombing of Dresden, but we don't blame that bombing on the scout movement.

This site on the Hitler Youth  doesn't have any mention of activites in Poland.  It mentions such activities as "serving first as special postmen delivering draft notices in their neighborhoods along with monthly ration cards. They also went door to door collecting scrap metals and other needed war materials" and "functioning as air raid wardens and anti-aircraft (flak) gun assistants in Berlin and other cities since the outbreak of war."  It contends that "their first action" came in August, 1940 in the Allied bombing of Berlin.

This doesn't prove, of course, that Hitler Youth weren't active in the Polish ghettoes, but it certainly raises the question whether they in fact were.  Do you have any evidence to support your statement?

Message Edited by Everyman on 08-04-2008 01:46 PM

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[Everyman]

Come, now, Choisya: as a former political researcher you should not be so inaccurate or so hostile to a legitimate discussion.

I was in no way "whitewashing" the Hitler Youth, and you know it.   I don't know why you feel the need to falsify my positions, but you and I both know it is dishonest and not the standard of conduct we expect of each other.  

 I was simply asking, and will continue to expect, that their record be reported accurately and truthfully, and that they not be demonized beyond what they deserve, which I agree is certainly part of their history.  

But when you state that they were in the Warsaw Ghetto from the beginning, I believe you should, since this is a history board and so should hew to some sort of historical accuracy, provide some basis for that accusation when it is questioned.   So I ask you again to provide some documentary evidence to support which is quite a strong accusation.  Neither you nor I were there at the time, so we both need to rely on other records for what we say happened then and there.  

As to links, here is the link to try again.   I have checked it and it works fine from my comuter. 

I think links are fine, and in fact important, to show the source of a statement made in a post.  Like a footnote in a text; if one doubts a fact asserted it's good to be able to go to the source to verify.  That's an excellent use of links.  A bald assertion of a controversial statement without any attribution or basis does not, at least in my opinion, belong in a serious history discussion.  

What I objected to in your linking was that you expected me to go to the link to uncover some information in it that you did not allude to in your post.  You simply asserted a fact about uniforms: I agreed with you, so saw no reason to go to a link to validate the fact.  

But to expect me to go to a link to find whatever it is in it that you didn't mention in your post but wanted me somehow to figure out that you wanted included in your position is, IMO, not appropriate, any more than it would be appropriate to do the same thing in a history article.

But you knew all that; you were just being feisty.

[bentley]

Still listening to the audio of the unabridged Buchanan Book:

Some additional points Buchanan is pushing:

• Churchill was the only one bellicose about entering into World War I except for one other lord.  All of the prime minister's cabinet were against it. Churchill was arguing that England had to support France their ally and that they had promised to do so.  Lord Salisbury, Lloyd George and Lord Asquinth were against it.
• Then it was argued that if Germany invaded neutral Belgium that they must fight to protect Belgium; the English were not so enamored about protecting France; but every heart was in the right place for little Belguim.
• All of the cabinet members were still against entering the war but Churchill was banging on the war drums to protect little Belgium and France.  If Lloyd George had stuck to his guns; they may not have entered the war at least not then; but George was worried about becoming prime minister after waiting for it for about 25 years so he did what he thought the populace wanted him to do at that time but his conscience was still troubled.
• Buchanan is using Charmley as a source and that discredits Buchanan from the get go with me (and it is not isolated); according to Charmley he had produced a letter to Clementine where Churchill was actually thrilled about England entering World War I.  
• At this point England is entering the war and Lloyd George secured his position with his vote of being the next prime minister.  Asquinth and others were devastated by this choice but were ultimately forced to go along with the vote.  At least this is how Buchanan is portraying the events.   

[Choisya]

Extract from one of the links already given:

'Jan Karski was a liaison officer of the Polish underground. Because of his photographic memory, he was chosen to infiltrate both the Warsaw Ghetto and a German concentration camp and then carried the first eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust. He did so and reported to the Allies. He recounted seeing naked dead bodies lying in the streets and emaciated and starving people, listless infants and older children with expressionless eyes.  One observation concerned the Hitler Youth. He described two pudgy teen-aged boys in the uniforms of the Hitler Youth hunting Jews for sport. He described the boys cheering and laughing when one of their rifle shots hit a Jew bringing screams of agony. [Wood] Karski is a very creditable source. Given the conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto, there was no need to make up anything. What was happening was unbelievaeable enough.'

[Everyman]

In your quotation you omitted the next sentences, which I think are quite important to understand the portion you quoted.  That article goes on to say

"This leads us to several questions. Who were these boys? Presumably they were the sons of NAZI officials in Warsaw. It is difficult to believe that this was an actual HJ assignment, but we winder [sic] if the boys descrribdd [sic] what they were doing to the other boys or leaders in their HJ unit and what the reaction was."

The reality, then, seems to be that there is no evidence that the Hitler Youth as a group or as part of their HY program were involved, but that yes, there may well have been members of HY (or youths who had formerly been members and retained their uniforms) who carried out atrocities. This I can well believe.  That's a different thing than saying that the HY as a group or in any official capacity were involved in the Warsaw Ghetto. (When boys who happen to be wearing boy scout uniforms do something cruel unrelated to their scouting program or activities, I don't blame the scout movement for that.)

In addition, I would note that there is no indication when this observation took place.   If they were their with their fathers who were Nazi officers, it's highly unlikely that they would have been there at the "outset."  (Your statement was "the HYM were active in the Jewish ghettoes of Warsaw from the outset." )  It is unlikely, I think, that Nazi officers would have broght their families with them during the invasion process, but much more likely that they would have done so after things had settled down.  This incident may have taken place years after the invasion.  

This history from the Jewish Virtual Library suggests this.   They say "At the outbreak of World War II in 1939, he [Karski] became a POW of the Red Army. Two months later he escaped and returned to occupied Poland, joining the Underground Polish Army. As a member of the Polish underground resistance movement in World War II, Karski repeatedly crossed enemy lines to act as a courier between his occupied nation and the West. Prior to his last departure from Poland, he was smuggled into the Warsaw Ghetto by the Jewish underground in order to witness the horrendous conditions and report to the outside world."  So any observation he made of the Ghetto would have been not "at the outset" but after his capture, escape, and a considerable period of activity with the Polish underground. 

So your statement that  "the HYM were active in the Jewish ghettoes of Warsaw from the outset" so far seems to boil down to this: two young men in Hitler Youth uniforms but most likely not acting under HY orders were, at some point well after the invasion when Nazi officers had brought their families to live with them in Poland, seen committing atrocities.  This I can well believe.

There is no doubt at all that there were many horrendous atrocities committed by Nazis, some of whom at points in their lives were members of the Hitler Youth.  But I don't see the need to go beyond the truth.  The truth is bad enough; we do not need to exaggerate or mis-state it.  As Frost said in his poem Mowing "Anything more than the truth would have seemed too weak."

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Choisya wrote:

Extract from one of the links already given:

'Jan Karski was a liaison officer of the Polish underground. Because of his photographic memory, he was chosen to infiltrate both the Warsaw Ghetto and a German concentration camp and then carried the first eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust. He did so and reported to the Allies. He recounted seeing naked dead bodies lying in the streets and emaciated and starving people, listless infants and older children with expressionless eyes.  One observation concerned the Hitler Youth. He described two pudgy teen-aged boys in the uniforms of the Hitler Youth hunting Jews for sport. He described the boys cheering and laughing when one of their rifle shots hit a Jew bringing screams of agony. [Wood] Karski is a very creditable source. Given the conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto, there was no need to make up anything. What was happening was unbelievaeable enough.'

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Message Edited by Everyman on 08-04-2008 11:37 PM

[bentley]

If you are planning to read Herodotus and planning to participate starting on September 2nd, could you please sign in to Herodotus~~The Histories - Introduction thread.  

This would help us know the numbers out there who are interested in participating on this board in any capacity even if it is posting in our Off Topic Cafe or reading along.  Of course, we would love for you to be with us posting on the weekly threads; because that is what makes the club successful.

So if you are planning to be on the board in any capacity, could you please sign into the Introduction thread for each book; this will help show B&N and us who is out there and the numbers involved.

Thanks for the cooperation in advance.

Bentley 

[Choisya]

Because I can find nothing on the internet does not mean that these things did not take place. There is plenty of documentary evidence elsewhere.  Also, my younger daughter has married into a Polish-Jewish family and I have heard them describe what happened in Warsaw from the outset of the invasion. I do not feel a need to whitewash what happened to preserve the purity of historical accuracy - I have heard and read of  such events from far too many real people since my childhhood.

I wish to end this exchange because I have found it very distasteful and upsetting, having to actually prove what atrocities took place in Nazi Germany when I thought that most educated people knew of them.  It has revived memories for me which I would rather remain suppressed and has caused me several sleepless nights.  I am not a Jew but because of the newsreels my father took me to and the books and articles I read at an early age, I feel very strongly about what happened. I also lived for 20 years very near to the largest Jewish quarter in the UK and met many, many survivors from those dreadful times. I do not really need the history books to tell me any 'truths' about their sufferings under Hitler.      

[bentley]

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Choisya wrote:

Because I can find nothing on the internet does not mean that these things did not take place. There is plenty of documentary evidence elsewhere.  Also, my younger daughter has married into a Polish-Jewish family and I have heard them describe what happened in Warsaw from the outset of the invasion. I do not feel a need to whitewash what happened to preserve the purity of historical accuracy - I have heard and read of  such events from far too many real people since my childhhood.

I wish to end this exchange because I have found it very distasteful and upsetting, having to actually prove what atrocities took place in Nazi Germany when I thought that most educated people knew of them.  It has revived memories for me which I would rather remain suppressed and has caused me several sleepless nights.  I am not a Jew but because of the newsreels my father took me to and the books and articles I read at an early age, I feel very strongly about what happened. I also lived for 20 years very near to the largest Jewish quarter in the UK and met many, many survivors from those dreadful times. I do not really need the history books to tell me any 'truths' about their sufferings under Hitler.      

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Choisya, I think that is a good idea; I do not even think the Off Topic Cafe is a place to continue this.  Both of you have presented your arguments, what more is there to say except you disagree.

One or both of you has to be intelligent enough to stop.

Bentley 

[Oldesq]

Reply in off topic cafe

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bentley wrote:

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Timbuktu1 wrote:
Yes.  I think it takes maturity to realize the importance of an education.  

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I agree with that too. 

As someone who finally made it to graduate school years after my peers, I can attest to this more than most.  Because I knew how precious each penny was that my spouse and I (and our two children!) were putting out for my classes/books and fees, I could not justify missing classes or not being prepared.  I also realized how education is not confined to the classroom and that what you learn and experience in all parts of your life shades and enriches educational opportunities. 

[bentley]

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Oldesq wrote:
Reply in off topic cafe

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bentley wrote:

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Timbuktu1 wrote:
Yes.  I think it takes maturity to realize the importance of an education.  

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I agree with that too. 

As someone who finally made it to graduate school years after my peers, I can attest to this more than most.  Because I knew how precious each penny was that my spouse and I (and our two children!) were putting out for my classes/books and fees, I could not justify missing classes or not being prepared.  I also realized how education is not confined to the classroom and that what you learn and experience in all parts of your life shades and enriches educational opportunities. 

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Wow terrific.  You should try out the new Greek one.  

I understand Oldesq what you are saying; and you had to make good on your promises of succeeding to your husband, your children and yourself.  And you are right about what we learn from life; the school of hard knocks teaches you things you never believed you needed to know.   You should feel very proud of yourself and I am sure your husband is proud of you and your children.  

~Bentley 

[Timbuktu1]

I too went back to school, in my 30's for a master's.  Yes, I appreciated every moment.  Then, of course, I started the program I'm in now, two years ago.  I attended a lecture last Friday and the prof mentioned how differently the classes go with adults compared to undergrads.  He said that in reading King Lear, for instance, the undergrads all side with the daughters and think Lear is a pain.  The adults have sympathy for Lear.  It's a totally different play.

I have to say, however, in reading this discussion about WWII, I do not feel as optimistic about the power of education.  Socrates/Plato (as Churchill said they're the same person) had the wonderful idea that education can create good people and a good state.  That the problems of the world can be solved with knowledge.  That no one would willingly reject the good if they knew it because it would be self-defeating.  That truth would set people free and allow everyone to live a good life.  I don't want to open up a very painful and discouraging discussion that should die a natural death.  But I have to say that the splitting of hairs, the twists and turns taken with the truth, a truth that is so well documented that it needs no further support and yet inspires denial is horrifying to me. It says something about human nature, that reason is not enough.  That truth is not all-powerful.  That injustice will always be with us.