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Timbuktu1
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : For Timbukto - Bosnia

Choisya, you inspired me to sit down and watch what is going on in Bosnia.  I don't know where my son heard that business about being a "hoax".  The pictures were horrifying.  

 

One day I will have to devote a couple of hours to figuring it all out.  It's hard to follow as they keep changing the names. LOL!

 

BTW, have you  written a book?  I imagine you'd have a lot to say and I for one would love to read it. 

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Choisya
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : For Timbukto - Bosnia

I am very pleased to hear this Timbukto and I hope you will pass the news on to your son.  Yes, the changing geographical names in the world makes things very difficult at times:smileysad:

 

I have not written a book, I have had many articles published and have contributed to other people's books but somehow I can't get around to writing one of my own.  Perhaps I should spend less time here:smileyvery-happy:

 

 

 

Timbuktu1 wrote:

Choisya, you inspired me to sit down and watch what is going on in Bosnia.  I don't know where my son heard that business about being a "hoax".  The pictures were horrifying.  

 

One day I will have to devote a couple of hours to figuring it all out.  It's hard to follow as they keep changing the names. LOL!

 

BTW, have you  written a book?  I imagine you'd have a lot to say and I for one would love to read it. 


 

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Oldesq
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : For Timbukto - Bosnia

Thought you might be interested in the information that the majority of the Grand Jury testimony from the Rosenberg spy case is going to be released.  Here is a link to a CNN article about the release.  http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/22/rosenberg.hearing/index.html
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Everyman
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR

And in two days of firebombing of Dresden an unknown number of people but generally accepted to be at least 25,000 civilians were killed and many times that number left homeless refugees. 

 

While Churchillians try to distance Churchill from this horror, and he himself after the fact expressed concern, it was done under his watch and control.


Timbuktu1 wrote:
Just discovered that in five months in l940, 22,000 civilians were killed in London.

 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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Everyman
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : Why we went to war.

Just how would you negotiate with Bin Laden?  Negotiation involves give-and-take.  What would you ask of him -- that he stop attacks on US soil? That he stop attacks on any Western country?  That he stop any attacks anywhere and become a peaceful disciple of Ghandi? 

 

And the Taliban -- what would you offer and ask of them?  What would you offer to get them to let girls attend schools?   Or isn't that a concern and would you negotiate their right to prevent girls from attending school anywhere they have influence?

 

It's just not clear to me what you would expect negotiation to accomplish.  If a people truly believe that the path to heaven consists in killing infidels, it's not clear to me what you can offer an an alternative.

 


bentley wrote:

Choisya wrote:

 

Negotiation:  Britain has negotiated itself out of many conflicts, particularly within the Empire. There are those who always say 'we will never negotiate with terrorists' but if you look at history you will see that we nearly always do and it often works.  Peace has to be 'brokered', it does not just happen. 

 


Bentley responded:

 

Not negotiating with terrorists is a statement that I personally heard out of Tony Blair's mouth many times.  When you start doing that, you are on a slippery slope with no return.  I disagree strongly on doing that.

 

As far as the Empire negotiating, conquering other countries and taking them as one' s own is not negotiating.  In our American conflict, the colonists tried to negotiate their way out of the onerous taxes and sent appeal after appeal to the King which was never even entertained: hence America.  So here in this country we have a long memory of non negotiation.  Maybe the King thought that the Concord colonists and the Sons of Liberty were terrorists and that is why they refused to listen to their own people: the Colonists.  So the tea went overboard into Boston Harbor; I think that caught his attention.   

 


 

 

_______________
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Choisya
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR

 

And in two days of firebombing of Dresden an unknown number of people but generally accepted to be at least 25,000 civilians were killed and many times that number left homeless refugees. 

 

Yes, that is still a very controversial raid:smileysad:.  The bombing of Dresden towards the end of the war has been compared to the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima because it was in part calculated to bring the war to an end sooner.  

 

The civilian casualties list for WWII is interesting, with China topping the list at 16,200,000 Russia at 11,400,000, Germany at 1,600,000, France at 267,000,  and the UK at 67,800. Presumably this has something to do with the density of the populations in the places which were bombed. 

 

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

And in two days of firebombing of Dresden an unknown number of people but generally accepted to be at least 25,000 civilians were killed and many times that number left homeless refugees. 

 

While Churchillians try to distance Churchill from this horror, and he himself after the fact expressed concern, it was done under his watch and control.


Timbuktu1 wrote:
Just discovered that in five months in l940, 22,000 civilians were killed in London.

 

 


 

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Choisya
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : Why we went to war.

There are many other 'leaders' than Bin Laden to negotiate with and we have already negotiated with the Taliban and other fundamentalist leaders in Afghanistan. More girls are going to school than formerly, thank goodness.   What is the other alternative - bombing/invading every country which harbours terrorists/fanatics?   Plenty of negotiations have taken place with other religious/political fanatics who believed their way was right and righteous (Northern Ireland for starters - I am thankful to walk the streets of London again without that worry.)

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Just how would you negotiate with Bin Laden?  Negotiation involves give-and-take.  What would you ask of him -- that he stop attacks on US soil? That he stop attacks on any Western country?  That he stop any attacks anywhere and become a peaceful disciple of Ghandi? 

 

And the Taliban -- what would you offer and ask of them?  What would you offer to get them to let girls attend schools?   Or isn't that a concern and would you negotiate their right to prevent girls from attending school anywhere they have influence?

 

It's just not clear to me what you would expect negotiation to accomplish.  If a people truly believe that the path to heaven consists in killing infidels, it's not clear to me what you can offer an an alternative.

 


bentley wrote:

Choisya wrote:

 

Negotiation:  Britain has negotiated itself out of many conflicts, particularly within the Empire. There are those who always say 'we will never negotiate with terrorists' but if you look at history you will see that we nearly always do and it often works.  Peace has to be 'brokered', it does not just happen. 

 


Bentley responded:

 

Not negotiating with terrorists is a statement that I personally heard out of Tony Blair's mouth many times.  When you start doing that, you are on a slippery slope with no return.  I disagree strongly on doing that.

 

As far as the Empire negotiating, conquering other countries and taking them as one' s own is not negotiating.  In our American conflict, the colonists tried to negotiate their way out of the onerous taxes and sent appeal after appeal to the King which was never even entertained: hence America.  So here in this country we have a long memory of non negotiation.  Maybe the King thought that the Concord colonists and the Sons of Liberty were terrorists and that is why they refused to listen to their own people: the Colonists.  So the tea went overboard into Boston Harbor; I think that caught his attention.   

 


 

 


 

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Everyman
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : Why we went to war.

More girls are going to school specifically because we have militarily ousted the Taliban from control of most of Afghanistan. It did not come about through any negotiation with the Taliban, but through military action.

 

I doubt that any negotiation with Islamic fundamentalist terrorists that doesn't include Bin Laden will be very productive  It would be like saying that you can negotiate with the US without talking, directly or indirectly, with George Bush.



Choisya wrote:

There are many other 'leaders' than Bin Laden to negotiate with and we have already negotiated with the Taliban and other fundamentalist leaders in Afghanistan. More girls are going to school than formerly, thank goodness.   What is the other alternative - bombing/invading every country which harbours terrorists/fanatics?   Plenty of negotiations have taken place with other religious/political fanatics who believed their way was right and righteous (Northern Ireland for starters - I am thankful to walk the streets of London again without that worry.)

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Just how would you negotiate with Bin Laden?  Negotiation involves give-and-take.  What would you ask of him -- that he stop attacks on US soil? That he stop attacks on any Western country?  That he stop any attacks anywhere and become a peaceful disciple of Ghandi? 

 

And the Taliban -- what would you offer and ask of them?  What would you offer to get them to let girls attend schools?   Or isn't that a concern and would you negotiate their right to prevent girls from attending school anywhere they have influence?

 

It's just not clear to me what you would expect negotiation to accomplish.  If a people truly believe that the path to heaven consists in killing infidels, it's not clear to me what you can offer an an alternative.

 


bentley wrote:

Choisya wrote:

 

Negotiation:  Britain has negotiated itself out of many conflicts, particularly within the Empire. There are those who always say 'we will never negotiate with terrorists' but if you look at history you will see that we nearly always do and it often works.  Peace has to be 'brokered', it does not just happen. 

 


Bentley responded:

 

Not negotiating with terrorists is a statement that I personally heard out of Tony Blair's mouth many times.  When you start doing that, you are on a slippery slope with no return.  I disagree strongly on doing that.

 

As far as the Empire negotiating, conquering other countries and taking them as one' s own is not negotiating.  In our American conflict, the colonists tried to negotiate their way out of the onerous taxes and sent appeal after appeal to the King which was never even entertained: hence America.  So here in this country we have a long memory of non negotiation.  Maybe the King thought that the Concord colonists and the Sons of Liberty were terrorists and that is why they refused to listen to their own people: the Colonists.  So the tea went overboard into Boston Harbor; I think that caught his attention.   

 


 

 


 


 

_______________
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Choisya
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : Why we went to war.

I am unwilling to get into any further argument with you Everyman.  Suffice it to say that there are differing views in the world, particularly in Europe, about these issues.
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Everyman
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : Why we went to war.

Well, we over here just hope that you over there in Europe don't start a third World War and need us to come in yet again to rescue democracy.  Twice is enough.


Choisya wrote:
I am unwilling to get into any further argument with you Everyman.  Suffice it to say that there are differing views in the world, particularly in Europe, about these issues.

 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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bentley
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - How about World Peace?

With all due respect to everybody's entrenched positions here; discussions regarding whether to or not to negotiate with terrorists are going to spark controversy and ill will in the best of times.  We have circled and recircled this discussion over and over again. I am not for negotiating with the Taliban or Bin Laden either; but there are some folks who think that not talking to your enemies provides no opportunity to change things for the better; even if you despise their ideologies which most of us do. They see frank exchanges as a sign of strength of character versus weakness or insanity.  

 

So that is where these arguments have ended up and where they should probably stay; we are all friends here and respect each other tremendously so I am sure that we can change this discussion to something less personal.

 

Thanks guys, we need all of you with all of your different points of view; that is what makes this fun and interesting.:smileysurprised:

 

Bentley 

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Timbuktu1
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - How about World Peace?

I checked out the Ben Franklin book just to make sure and I think we're both right, Bentley.  I think that the founders were brought up in such a religious world that even when they seemingly reject it, it's so internalized that it never leaves them.  

 

This is the quote.

 

"The arguments of the Deists which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I became a thorough Deist.  My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph, but, each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another free thinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me much trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful"

 

Franklin is a favorite of mine and I didn't want to misrepresent him.  As I re-read this, there's something about him that reminds me of Churchill! 

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bentley
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - How about World Peace?


Timbuktu1 wrote:

I checked out the Ben Franklin book just to make sure and I think we're both right, Bentley.  I think that the founders were brought up in such a religious world that even when they seemingly reject it, it's so internalized that it never leaves them.  

 

This is the quote.

 

"The arguments of the Deists which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I became a thorough Deist.  My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph, but, each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another free thinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me much trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful"

 

Franklin is a favorite of mine and I didn't want to misrepresent him.  As I re-read this, there's something about him that reminds me of Churchill! 


 
Bentley responds: 
Very true Timbuktu; in Franklin's Autobiography from what I can remember he talks about his religious views (if I am remembering correctly).  I think you would love that book.  I think his personality has similar qualities.  I think Churchill's moralistic views were better; Franklin was a little like Clinton; if you get the gist.  
Not to hold the above against him or Clinton in terms of accomplishments, Franklin was also an excellent statesman and well known for science experiments, writing, his publications, his negotiation skills, etc; as was Churchill (writing, painting, statesman, polo player, orator, war strategist, prime minister).

 

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bentley
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - Candidates and Religion (cont.d from chapter thread)

[ Edited ]

 

This is a continuation of a conversation with Timbuktu on a chapter thread:

 

Timbuktu, here is a sermon that McCain gave:

 

Here’s Mr. McCain’s description of a sermon he delivered :

One day I talked about the parable of when they asked Christ whether they should pay taxes and he held up a coin and said, “Render unto Caesar, etc.” My point was and still is that when we were flying in combat, we weren’t doing God’s work. We were doing Caesar’s work. So for us to go to prison and then ask God to get us out was not fair to God, to our religion, to our beliefs and to ourselves. It wasn’t a miracle that sent a SAM [surface-to-air missile] to hit my airplane. It was a guy, a technician at a SAM site.

I think it was important, a little bit for the stability factor, that it wasn’t God who was going to perform a miracle, end the war and bring us home. It was men. It was Caesar. I think the majority of those guys felt the way I did but we just had some, just as people turn to faith healing and that kind of stuff, we had some of that. A lot of times I would pray for strength and I think sometimes I got it. Pray for patience to get through the next minute when things were bad. I just don’t think it’s fair to expect too much out of what is basically not the Lord’s business. 
 
Somehow I agree with him a little.
 
As far as Obama, his church and his pastor, really had me going.  I just do not know what to think.  So there we have a Baptist and a Trinity Church goer; that is the choice if you look at religious views.  So this year, religion does not seem to be that much of a factor as long as itis something that the majority of folks seem to understand.  

Message Edited by bentley on 08-01-2008 08:44 PM
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - How about World Peace?


bentley wrote:

Timbuktu1 wrote:

I checked out the Ben Franklin book just to make sure and I think we're both right, Bentley.  I think that the founders were brought up in such a religious world that even when they seemingly reject it, it's so internalized that it never leaves them.  

 

This is the quote.

 

"The arguments of the Deists which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I became a thorough Deist.  My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph, but, each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another free thinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me much trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful"

 

Franklin is a favorite of mine and I didn't want to misrepresent him.  As I re-read this, there's something about him that reminds me of Churchill! 


 
Bentley responds: 
Very true Timbuktu; in Franklin's Autobiography from what I can remember he talks about his religious views (if I am remembering correctly).  I think you would love that book.  I think his personality has similar qualities.  I think Churchill's moralistic views were better; Franklin was a little like Clinton; if you get the gist.  
Not to hold the above against him or Clinton in terms of accomplishments, Franklin was also an excellent statesman and well known for science experiments, writing, his publications, his negotiation skills, etc; as was Churchill (writing, painting, statesman, polo player, orator, war strategist, prime minister).

 

I read and loved the Autobiography.  I wish it was assigned reading in all schools! 
I thought this quote was from it.  Yes, I get  your gist but I can't think of Franklin and Clinton in the same way.  I ADORE Franklin!  In fact, one birthday my son gave me a Franklin action figure, just about my favorite gift! LOL!

 

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Timbuktu1
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - Candidates and Religion (cont.d from chapter thread)


bentley wrote:

 

This is a continuation of a conversation with Timbuktu on a chapter thread:

 

Timbuktu, here is a sermon that McCain gave:

 

Here’s Mr. McCain’s description of a sermon he delivered :

One day I talked about the parable of when they asked Christ whether they should pay taxes and he held up a coin and said, “Render unto Caesar, etc.” My point was and still is that when we were flying in combat, we weren’t doing God’s work. We were doing Caesar’s work. So for us to go to prison and then ask God to get us out was not fair to God, to our religion, to our beliefs and to ourselves. It wasn’t a miracle that sent a SAM [surface-to-air missile] to hit my airplane. It was a guy, a technician at a SAM site.

I think it was important, a little bit for the stability factor, that it wasn’t God who was going to perform a miracle, end the war and bring us home. It was men. It was Caesar. I think the majority of those guys felt the way I did but we just had some, just as people turn to faith healing and that kind of stuff, we had some of that. A lot of times I would pray for strength and I think sometimes I got it. Pray for patience to get through the next minute when things were bad. I just don’t think it’s fair to expect too much out of what is basically not the Lord’s business. 
 
Somehow I agree with him a little.
 
As far as Obama, his church and his pastor, really had me going.  I just do not know what to think.  So there we have a Baptist and a Trinity Church goer; that is the choice if you look at religious views.  So this year, religion does not seem to be that much of a factor as long as itis something that the majority of folks seem to understand.  

Message Edited by bentley on 08-01-2008 08:44 PM
Thanks bentley, that's a wonderful quote.  That "render unto Caesar" quote was discussed at the lecture today.  There's an interesting interplay between religion and reason in American thought.  I like McCain's take on it but he had my vote anyway.  Here in Chicago we knew about Obama's church for a long time and couldn't believe it took so long for the media to expose it.  I don't think that if the shoe were on the other foot there would be any confusion as to the message.  

 

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bentley
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - How about World Peace?


Timbuktu1 wrote:

bentley wrote:

Timbuktu1 wrote:

I checked out the Ben Franklin book just to make sure and I think we're both right, Bentley.  I think that the founders were brought up in such a religious world that even when they seemingly reject it, it's so internalized that it never leaves them.  

 

This is the quote.

 

"The arguments of the Deists which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I became a thorough Deist.  My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph, but, each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another free thinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me much trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful"

 

Franklin is a favorite of mine and I didn't want to misrepresent him.  As I re-read this, there's something about him that reminds me of Churchill! 


 
Bentley responds: 
Very true Timbuktu; in Franklin's Autobiography from what I can remember he talks about his religious views (if I am remembering correctly).  I think you would love that book.  I think his personality has similar qualities.  I think Churchill's moralistic views were better; Franklin was a little like Clinton; if you get the gist.  
Not to hold the above against him or Clinton in terms of accomplishments, Franklin was also an excellent statesman and well known for science experiments, writing, his publications, his negotiation skills, etc; as was Churchill (writing, painting, statesman, polo player, orator, war strategist, prime minister).

 

I read and loved the Autobiography.  I wish it was assigned reading in all schools! 
I thought this quote was from it.  Yes, I get  your gist but I can't think of Franklin and Clinton in the same way.  I ADORE Franklin!  In fact, one birthday my son gave me a Franklin action figure, just about my favorite gift! LOL!

 


Timbuktu,
I agree; I know Franklin in many ways has become an American icon and is long gone so his warts and flaws are no so readily apparent as the other.
But both of the men had tremendous accomplishments.
That is terrific that you got that present.   I think that book has tremendous potential to be a modern day self help book.  :smileyhappy:
Bentley 
 
 
 

 

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bentley
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - Candidates and Religion (cont.d from chapter thread)

Agreed Timbuktu, very much agreed. 
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR : For Timbukto - Bosnia


Oldesq wrote:
Thought you might be interested in the information that the majority of the Grand Jury testimony from the Rosenberg spy case is going to be released.  Here is a link to a CNN article about the release.  http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/22/rosenberg.hearing/index.html
Thanks so much Oldesq, I just found this.  It will be interesting to read.  

 

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Timbuktu1
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Re: Off-Topic Cafe - DISCUSSION ABOUT WAR


Everyman wrote:

And in two days of firebombing of Dresden an unknown number of people but generally accepted to be at least 25,000 civilians were killed and many times that number left homeless refugees. 

 

While Churchillians try to distance Churchill from this horror, and he himself after the fact expressed concern, it was done under his watch and control.


Timbuktu1 wrote:
Just discovered that in five months in l940, 22,000 civilians were killed in London.

 

 War is horrible but I don't think these two events are morally equivalent.  It's too easy, 60 years after having won the war, to second guess what was done.  I don't think the Nazis, would have questioned their inhumanity in war 60 years later.  Only decent, humane people feel guilt.  Unfortunately it puts them at a great disadvantage when fighting evil.