Middle Chapters Discussion - Through Chapter 17

[Stephanie]

Should Mel have told Beau earlier about her involvement with SASAC and why she became a cop? How much should two people in a relationship tell each other?

This thread is appropriate for those who have read through Chapter 17. Please be mindful of spoilers about any material beyond that chapter.

[Stephanie]

And not only, "how much should couples tell each other" but at what point in the relationship? Early on, you don't know how long it might last- when does it become, I should have told this about myself by now-?

[KathyS]

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Stephanie wrote:
And not only, "how much should couples tell each other" but at what point in the relationship? Early on, you don't know how long it might last- when does it become, I should have told this about myself by now-?

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Well, Stephanie, since I assume I don't have to have read through the book to answer this, or should I say, attempt to answer this question, I suppose I could give it a try.

My answer would probably vary from day to day, and year to year, anyway! I can be so ambiguous, it's maddening!

How much and when? How much is too much, or not enough? I don't know if my answer is coming from an "old school" of thought, or a present one. To be vague in this answer, is to say it would depend on the individuals feelings for each other, at those moments in time when one *feels* it's the moment of/for truth, or disclosure.

If mutual love is involved, and a wanting to continue the relationship, I think there has to be honesty between couples. I'm a firm believer in being up front, and being honest with people, if it's at all possible. But I have to admit, in the same breath, there were things in my past life I had no intention of ever telling my husband. The need to know is a big factor. Being honest has it's boundaries. What is brought up is totally between the two people involved. Some people can be demanding in wanting to know every little detail of someone else's past. Some could care less. My husband was one to care less, so it was never an issue to disclose something that would be a potential hurtful situation. You sort of have to fly with instinct sometimes.

This is the main issue, I feel. When and what will hurt someone else. This is not just for married couples, but can become issues between other relationships.

I saw that, early on in these chapters, that Beau was having a hard time not revealing his feelings about his secret work to Mel. When the connection was made, in Chapter 9 (of their individual work on the same case), I couldn't figure out what the big deal was to keep it secret to begin with. The agency is working towards the same ends, and conclusions....why make it more difficult to discover evidence by keep this secrecy. Wasn't making sense to me.

I hope I've made some sense, here.
Kathy

[kiakar]

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Stephanie wrote:
And not only, "how much should couples tell each other" but at what point in the relationship? Early on, you don't know how long it might last- when does it become, I should have told this about myself by now-?

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I feel if baggage bothers a couple then they need to get it all out in the opening. But if you agree to let bygones be that, then if something comes up about ones past they need to be adults nd deal with it. I think Mel was still upset about the past, and couldn't or didn't want to discuss it with Beau. But I feel it should be agreed upon, whatever decision is made. And then it could come back to haunt you but that is just life in general.

[Stephanie]

Kathy,

Good points all- and I agree. There are those who, when in a romantic relationship, want to know all or reveal all almost immediately. I don't think that's the best idea. I also think that there are some parts of one's past or person that they might never want to talk about, and unless the information has a direct effect on the partner, no one should feel pressured to discuss what they'd rather keep close.

As to keeping the work a secret- Beau was told to do this by his boss. For reasons disclosed later - so it will make more sense then, I hope. I think he's right to do as his boss asks, but he is put into an uncomfortable situation.

[Stephanie]

Linda,

There's always something coming back to haunt us, isn't there? I'm sure that Beau felt left out of a big part of Mel's life. She has her reasons for not sharing, and that needs to be respected. But life is filled with secrets kept and secrets shared, or there wouldn't be any such thing, hm?

[kiakar]

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Stephanie wrote:
Kathy,

Good points all- and I agree. There are those who, when in a romantic relationship, want to know all or reveal all almost immediately. I don't think that's the best idea. I also think that there are some parts of one's past or person that they might never want to talk about, and unless the information has a direct effect on the partner, no one should feel pressured to discuss what they'd rather keep close.

As to keeping the work a secret- Beau was told to do this by his boss. For reasons disclosed later - so it will make more sense then, I hope. I think he's right to do as his boss asks, but he is put into an uncomfortable situation.

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Yes, Kathy S.,

The boss seemed to want friction between Mel and Beau, didn't he? He is the one who blurted it out in front of Mel, when he knew Beau hadn't told her.

If you had been raped, beaten and so on would you tell it if you felt that was something you didn't want to reveal, especially the person you are marrying would very much want to hear about your past.?

[KathyS]

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kiakar wrote:

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Stephanie wrote:
Kathy,

Good points all- and I agree. There are those who, when in a romantic relationship, want to know all or reveal all almost immediately. I don't think that's the best idea. I also think that there are some parts of one's past or person that they might never want to talk about, and unless the information has a direct effect on the partner, no one should feel pressured to discuss what they'd rather keep close.

As to keeping the work a secret- Beau was told to do this by his boss. For reasons disclosed later - so it will make more sense then, I hope. I think he's right to do as his boss asks, but he is put into an uncomfortable situation.

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Yes, Kathy S.,

The boss seemed to want friction between Mel and Beau, didn't he? He is the one who blurted it out in front of Mel, when he knew Beau hadn't told her.

If you had been raped, beaten and so on would you tell it if you felt that was something you didn't want to reveal, especially the person you are marrying would very much want to hear about your past.?

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Linda, no, I would not tell these facts, unless I knew the emotional status of my partner. If that person could handle these facts, emotionally, and I could trust that emotion, then yes, I would divulge it. Like I said, knowing what can and cannot hurt someone, this is the important factor here. Dialogue/discussion between partners is important to understanding these emotions. If little to none exists, then there will be gaps in understanding each other's reactions. I hope this makes sense.

Chapter 9: Why the boss sat them both down, together, not discussing it with them individually, first, as to his tactics of disclosure, I didn't understand this part. He talked to them like they were aware of what was going on with each other's investigation. Hello? They were told not to talk to anyone. They were doing their job. Yes. What dialogue changed this? Did I miss something? Did he just have too much to drink, and wasn't thinking clearly? Or did he not care?
K.

[KathyS]

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Stephanie wrote:
Should Mel have told Beau earlier about her involvement with SASAC and why she became a cop? How much should two people in a relationship tell each other?

This thread is appropriate for those who have read through Chapter 17. Please be mindful of spoilers about any material beyond that chapter.

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Chapter 14: Mel's involvement with SASAC. I just finished this section, the reason she became a cop and her discussion with Beau concerning her relationship to the girl who was molested, and then later committed suicide. I don't know what to say, other than it was hard to read about this. I think I answered most of this question about disclosure, in another post.

Mel wasn't the one it happened to, but her feelings of guilt were real. I think a discussion of why people go into the work they do, shouldn't be a difficult discussion to have, or one that wouldn't normally come up in early relationship conversations. Why do you do the work you do?

But Beau doesn't seem like the kind of guy to get into anything too deep, along the lines of conversation. He avoids personal confrontations, as far as I have seen. He reluctantly called Mel. Afraid of the rejection is what I saw, which isn't anything too uncommon. His first reaction to Mel, when she wanted to start the conversation, was, [dialogue in his mind]..."It was also probably something I didn't want to hear." (thinking it was something that had to have happened - directly to do with her)

He recaps[also in his mind]the situations in his history that were difficult for him.....I recapped [in my mind] situations that were difficult for me, as I read this. Projecting those feelings back into their situation. Beau did become sympathetic, which was nice to see.

I didn't particularly like the physical distancing they had during this conversation. My feelings are, the harder the subject to discuss, the closer you need to be to someone you love. The comfort is in the proximity. But, that's just my personal feelings.
K.

[KathyS]

I swear, Beau....! He's still referring to his daughter as having a temper tantrum! Her situation "casting a pall" on his stupid meal! Yikes! Does he have blinders on, or what? What does it take for this guy to see things...his daughter's death? Do people have to die around him before he understands something?

One minute I like him, and the next I want to feed him to the alligators in the swamplands of Florida!

I'm a little miffed at this guy right now....can you tell?

K.

[Stephanie]

Totally clueless? Or merely preoccupied?

Perhaps Beau is thinking of his daughter as a little girl still- fathers have a tendency to do this. I think my father started seeing me as a capable adult when we were working on a house together. It was a true partnership - not him as the mechanic and me as the apprentice like it was when I was a kid. It changed our relationship, brought it to a new level. I don't see this particular avenue as a viable option for our characters, but you have to present yourself as an adult to your parents if you ever hope for them to see you that way.

[KathyS]

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Stephanie wrote:
Totally clueless? Or merely preoccupied?

Perhaps Beau is thinking of his daughter as a little girl still- fathers have a tendency to do this. I think my father started seeing me as a capable adult when we were working on a house together. It was a true partnership - not him as the mechanic and me as the apprentice like it was when I was a kid. It changed our relationship, brought it to a new level. I don't see this particular avenue as a viable option for our characters, but you have to present yourself as an adult to your parents if you ever hope for them to see you that way.

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Stephanie, some parents never see their children as anything but children. Yes, it's nice when you can work along side the parent, or the child, and see their capabilities, and gain mutual respect...but when you can't, you still have to realize, and trust, the child is not that little kid you could tell what to do. You have to trust in yourself that you've done the job, and you have to trust the kid has learned it. Some situations, as in this story, don't offer all of these options, unfortunately.

As far as Beau, for whatever reason he wasn't seeing the fact that Kelly had some medical issues that were not simply something she could control without help. Even after he was told this, it sounded like it was all about him. At least that's what I heard from some of the dialogue. How could he be clueless, or preoccupied? His daughter needed his help, and he was busy having dinner - and it sounded like he resented what she had done *to him* [disrupting his evening/dinner]. That's how I read it, I haven't bothered to quote it.

Message Edited by KathyS on 09-19-2007 09:02 PM

[kiakar]

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KathyS wrote:
I swear, Beau....! He's still referring to his daughter as having a temper tantrum! Her situation "casting a pall" on his stupid meal! Yikes! Does he have blinders on, or what? What does it take for this guy to see things...his daughter's death? Do people have to die around him before he understands something?

One minute I like him, and the next I want to feed him to the alligators in the swamplands of Florida!

I'm a little miffed at this guy right now....can you tell?

K.

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You are right, Kathy S.,

Men are like that! They do not go forward, they are just in neutral all their life!
We have to accept that! Cause it has never changed.

[kiakar]

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KathyS wrote:

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Stephanie wrote:
Totally clueless? Or merely preoccupied?

Perhaps Beau is thinking of his daughter as a little girl still- fathers have a tendency to do this. I think my father started seeing me as a capable adult when we were working on a house together. It was a true partnership - not him as the mechanic and me as the apprentice like it was when I was a kid. It changed our relationship, brought it to a new level. I don't see this particular avenue as a viable option for our characters, but you have to present yourself as an adult to your parents if you ever hope for them to see you that way.

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Stephanie, some parents never see their children as anything but children. Yes, it's nice when you can work along side the parent, or the child, and see their capabilities, and gain mutual respect...but when you can't, you still have to realize, and trust, the child is not that little kid you could tell what to do. You have to trust in yourself that you've done the job, and you have to trust the kid has learned it. Some situations, as in this story, don't offer all of these options, unfortunately.

As far as Beau, for whatever reason he wasn't seeing the fact that Kelly had some medical issues that were not simply something she could control without help. Even after he was told this, it sounded like it was all about him. At least that's what I heard from some of the dialogue. How could he be clueless, or preoccupied? His daughter needed his help, and he was busy having dinner - and it sounded like he resented what she had done *to him* [disrupting his evening/dinner]. That's how I read it, I haven't bothered to quote it.

Message Edited by KathyS on 09-19-2007 09:02 PM

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That is another thing that is wrong with men. ha. They can't feel because they have no emotions. They do, but they are so far Mars its pitiful. They can't comphrehend the postportum thing women go thru. Beau probably had never been around anyone with it and he was going backwards to Kelly's childhood when she was just a spoiled kid throwing tatums because that is all he knew. Poor Beau! I like him, and then I don't. Oh well, that is the story of my life with men. ha.

[KathyS]

You know, Linda, I really try to not lump *all* men into these categories of un-feeling, insensitive-dolts.

The one thing we get when reading some novels, is that we have characters who give us their thoughts - the inside view of the workings of their brain. Sometimes I like that in a story, and sometimes I don't. When I don't, it's when I hear stupid and negative things going on inside of them. It does give a truer view of that character's personality, but sometimes I just don't want to hear it!

I want to think of my main characters as void of mean and negative thoughts/feelings. But that's not a realistic view of how any of us think.

I know I voice my thoughts on these discussions, and they aren't always positive....the alligators of Florida can attest to that! I think I saw Beau's leg sticking out of one of their mouths....I may rescue him by the time I finish reading this book....I just hope there is something left [by the time I get through with him] to rescue!

Kathy

[Stephanie]

I think we did get real honesty from our main character here- which, for the most part, I want. I know what you mean, Kathy, when you say that sometimes you don't want to hear it. It's good to know though, that I'm not the only one that was thinking Beau's daughter was a brat ... that is the initial reaction (however wrong) to her behavior. Until I knew what her problem was, I was on Beau's side. Once I realized she was depressed, I could empathize. Before that, I just wanted her to stop whining. I'm not much for whining anyway.

[jajance]

I think the Attorney General had had far too much to drink and said what he did inadvertently.

[jajance]

My husband is a very nice man--I've mentioned that in a previous post. He's been my daughter's father since she was thirteen. She's now thirty five, a widow for over a year, and the single mother of a toddler. But my husband has a hard time seeing her as a "grown up." Beau's reactions to Kelly are, as people have said, complicated by guilt from being a "bad" father when she was little and an inability to let her be her own person.

[KathyS]

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jajance wrote:
I think the Attorney General had had far too much to drink and said what he did inadvertently.

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Thank you, J A. The loose-lips syndrome!

Kathy S.

[kiakar]

Oh!! O.K. I was thinking maybe he wanted to put some friction in beau's and Mel's relationship. But you wrote it, you would know, huh?