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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

As a follow-up to my last posting, I'm adding just a few more thoughts on the same subject.
 
I assume that the Nazis themselves never found out that Tolkien himself had described the Dwarves as being "Jewish-like" - and we can be very thankful that they never did ...
Knowing how Hitler and the Nazis were always looking to Nordic-Germanic Mythology for material with which to  "re-invent" a "New Mythology" for the German People to look up to - and with which to actually completely replace real Religion --- And considering Hitler's fascination with Wagner and the Seigfried story ( although there is more of that in LOTR - which the Nazis never got their hands on -  in [ H ] there is a dragon, and a magic ring, and the "Odin-like" Gandalf, etcetera )---
 The Nazis cetainly would have seized on that concept -
( of the Dwarves being "Jewish" ) and used it as another "Feather In Their Cap" - adding "The Hobbit" to the approved lexicon of their Propaganda Machine ... They could have just stuck it on the Book-Jacket , something like: [  Now, children, this the tale of one brave little hobbit, and all the trouble he went through, always having to save the necks of thirteen greedy, foolish, "Jewish" dwarves...etcetera ]
But then, one has to wonder what they would have done when they came to that passage in Chapter IV, with the description of the nature of Goblins:
[ "...Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work until till they die for want of lack of air and light..." ]
They probably  would have had to "accidentally" leave that passage out.
That passage certainly seems like an indictment of the true Nazi mentality - and describes some of the truly evil deeds they were guilty of - although, at the time [ H ] was first published, the Nazis were still trying to hide much of their ongoing evil works from their own people and the rest of the world, as well - and only
tried to portray themselves as some kind of Great Nordic Heroes ( or even Nordic Gods ) ---
 
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

One more follow up on the same subject ...
 
My own mentioning of Hitler and Wagner in the same breath reminded me of something I recalled hearing or reading somewhere - so I did a little research, and it appears that Wagner was one of the most virulent professed Anti-Semites of all time, and that he also "built in" his warped beliefs into his operas -
Especially through the way the operas were supposed to be ( and actually were ) presented ( in Wagner's time, and for some time afterwards ) -- and that the dwarves ( such as Alberich and Mime ) were very thinly-veiled vicious characterizations of
 "The Evil Jew" - and, indeed, ( for both Wagner, Hitler and the Nazis ) the whole Ring Cycle/Siegfried story comes off as some kind of parable pitting the "Aryan" Hero against the "evil influence of the Jews", and then vanquishing them in the end ... ( it's all a bit more complicated than that, but that's basically what it all boils down to ) .... So, I'm curious - is it possible the reason JRRT was so adamant about his stories not being influenced by The Ring Cycle in any way was ( at least in part ) due to his knowledge about all this, especially in light of the incredible atrocities of the Nazi regime that came to light at the end of
The Second World War?   ( and his wish to disassociate himself from that evilness entirely? ) ---
 
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Concerning Goblins and Orcs and etcetera....
 
I came to the conclusion very early on ( when I was still quite young - and in my very first readings of "The Hobbit" and LOTR ) that goblins ( and subsequently, orcs ) had to be so completely non-human in every respect, that that could not even be considered a "race" ( unlike the other, more human-like "races" such as hobbits, elves, dwarves, men ) - but that they had to something else altogether - some kind of monsters or even devils ( and possibly "soul-less" ) --- Otherwise, how could the heroes of the stories feel absolutely no remorse at the slaying of all these otherwise sentinent beings?
I don't think I reached this grand conclusion by any great philosophical machinations - it was more of simply a case of my wanting to be able to enjoy reading the stories without having to feel any pangs of guilt myself -
( one could even enjoy seeing all those vicious  goblins/orcs getting their heads chopped off or otherwise dispatched - because, after all - they were "just" goblins/orcs - and representations of "Evil"  ) ---
And, even if it wasn't true that they had no souls entirely ( I must have reasoned ) - they were so evil and malicious that they  could be considered to be some kind of "devil-creatures" -- Although
 I always saw Middle-earth as a pagan, pre-Christian setting - one with the presence of "Good and Evil" - but not the traditional religious concepts of "Heaven and Hell" ---
 Except for the presence of the "Forever Lands" ( on the other side of the Great Sea ) - but the naming of a specific "Creator-God" does not come until "The Silmarillion" - as far as I can recall - And it could be said that Sauron desired to impose a kind of "Hell on Earth" ( if he ruled the world ) - but that is not exactly the same thing as "Hell" itself ---
 
Good Afternoon To All,
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Uh-oh!  Now you've done it, Arlo!  Just wait until Dagor sees this...though it has been so long, I forget which side of this debate he's on....
 
I'm on the Orcs do have souls side.  I believe that it is possible for them to be redeemed.  (But, only as written and published in Silm and LotR)
More later.
Fan

oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:
Concerning Goblins and Orcs and etcetera....
 
I came to the conclusion very early on ( when I was still quite young - and in my very first readings of "The Hobbit" and LOTR ) that goblins ( and subsequently, orcs ) had to be so completely non-human in every respect, that that could not even be considered a "race" ( unlike the other, more human-like "races" such as hobbits, elves, dwarves, men ) - but that they had to something else altogether - some kind of monsters or even devils ( and possibly "soul-less" ) --- Otherwise, how could the heroes of the stories feel absolutely no remorse at the slaying of all these otherwise sentinent beings?
I don't think I reached this grand conclusion by any great philosophical machinations - it was more of simply a case of my wanting to be able to enjoy reading the stories without having to feel any pangs of guilt myself -
( one could even enjoy seeing all those vicious  goblins/orcs getting their heads chopped off or otherwise dispatched - because, after all - they were "just" goblins/orcs - and representations of "Evil"  ) ---
And, even if it wasn't true that they had no souls entirely ( I must have reasoned ) - they were so evil and malicious that they  could be considered to be some kind of "devil-creatures" -- Although
 I always saw Middle-earth as a pagan, pre-Christian setting - one with the presence of "Good and Evil" - but not the traditional religious concepts of "Heaven and Hell" ---
 Except for the presence of the "Forever Lands" ( on the other side of the Great Sea ) - but the naming of a specific "Creator-God" does not come until "The Silmarillion" - as far as I can recall - And it could be said that Sauron desired to impose a kind of "Hell on Earth" ( if he ruled the world ) - but that is not exactly the same thing as "Hell" itself ---
 
Good Afternoon To All,
Ardo Whortleberry
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Otherwise, how could the heroes of the stories feel absolutely no remorse at the slaying of all these otherwise sentinent beings?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That would be saying Elves and Dwarves killing each other would feel remorse. But then you have Legolas and Gimli hating each other and read to kill each other on sight in the beginning.

And since when is man wholly hesitant to kill other men. All it takes is some matter of separation, otherness and guilt evaporates.
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Oh, I forgot to add the Hobbit in with LotR and Silm.
The first thing I'd like to do is "humanize" Orcs.
What do we know about their "culture"? 
Fan

Fanuidhol wrote:
Uh-oh!  Now you've done it, Arlo!  Just wait until Dagor sees this...though it has been so long, I forget which side of this debate he's on....
 
I'm on the Orcs do have souls side.  I believe that it is possible for them to be redeemed.  (But, only as written and published in Silm and LotR)
More later.
Fan

oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:
Concerning Goblins and Orcs and etcetera....
 
I came to the conclusion very early on ( when I was still quite young - and in my very first readings of "The Hobbit" and LOTR ) that goblins ( and subsequently, orcs ) had to be so completely non-human in every respect, that that could not even be considered a "race" ( unlike the other, more human-like "races" such as hobbits, elves, dwarves, men ) - but that they had to something else altogether - some kind of monsters or even devils ( and possibly "soul-less" ) --- Otherwise, how could the heroes of the stories feel absolutely no remorse at the slaying of all these otherwise sentinent beings?
I don't think I reached this grand conclusion by any great philosophical machinations - it was more of simply a case of my wanting to be able to enjoy reading the stories without having to feel any pangs of guilt myself -
( one could even enjoy seeing all those vicious  goblins/orcs getting their heads chopped off or otherwise dispatched - because, after all - they were "just" goblins/orcs - and representations of "Evil"  ) ---
And, even if it wasn't true that they had no souls entirely ( I must have reasoned ) - they were so evil and malicious that they  could be considered to be some kind of "devil-creatures" -- Although
 I always saw Middle-earth as a pagan, pre-Christian setting - one with the presence of "Good and Evil" - but not the traditional religious concepts of "Heaven and Hell" ---
 Except for the presence of the "Forever Lands" ( on the other side of the Great Sea ) - but the naming of a specific "Creator-God" does not come until "The Silmarillion" - as far as I can recall - And it could be said that Sauron desired to impose a kind of "Hell on Earth" ( if he ruled the world ) - but that is not exactly the same thing as "Hell" itself ---
 
Good Afternoon To All,
Ardo Whortleberry
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

One of the "nice" things about pejorative racism is the fact that it allows us to "de-humanize" our foes, so we can escape the feeling of guilt that slaughtering them may excite even in our most brutal minds. Native Americans suffered this sort of "de-humanization" to the point that deliberate attempts to exterminate them all were quite acceptable to a significant portion of the U.S. public. Of course, the most well-publicized, recent example of this trick came with the racism of the Nazis. First the Jews were deliberately degraded to "vermin" status, stripped of their humanity and labeled as degenerative elements in our species -- a "race" whose removal would purify and uplift our species. Then they were slaughtered.

When JRRT uses Orcs in this fashion, as creatures so far twisted away from "human" standards as to be nothing more than "vermin," I think he unwittingly was playing into one of the forms of racism that, in our Real World history, has become the most atrocious -- Orcs, "dehumanized," are now available for use as "sword-fodder," candidates for utter extermination.

Here JRRT got trapped in his orthodox Christianity. He believed in One God acting as the Only Creator. So, JRRT was not able to allow Morgoth to create the Orcs as a fully separate class of totally evil, totally un-redeemable beings. If he had created the Orcs as a species completely separated from the "human/ Elf" he might have been able to get away with this. But Morgoth (in a Christianized existence) had to make his Orcs from matter already at hand, he could twist, corrupt -- but not really create anything new. So, the Orcs originally were Elves, and later some Men were likewise altered into Orc status through capture, forced-breeding, torture, fear, pain, coercion. Even JRRT realized this meant that Orcs, by absolute dictate of his Christian religious base, HAD to be redeemable, HAD to be viewed as something other than noxious vermin. But here, I think he stumbled, he simply could not bring himself to regard the Orcs as anything other than verminous -- besides, it would require considerable re-writing of his lengthy book to sort out this problem.

This "paradox" would plague JRRT later, after LotR was published and it drew a number of Christian thinkers who started analyzing the tale in depth. They spotted this conundrum quite early on and asked Tolkien for clarification. One way to get out of this situation would be to simply deny that Eru, God of the Middle-earth universe was the Judaeo-Islamic-Christian God -- but JRRT was unwilling to de-couple Middle-earth and our own Real World, unwilling to drop his Middle-earth "god" as God. So he was forced to admit that Orcs were "human" too, and even though he did not want to admit it, his Christian critics pointed out that this automatically made them ensouled beings created by the All Good, All Powerful, All knowing, All Merciful God of Abraham. Therefore, they deserved better treatment than mere extermination as absolute vermin.

Tolkien was forced to accept this truth, but he "waffled" here, admiting that Orcs MUST indeed be redeemable, but did they have souls? Was it still OK to exterminate them?

"They [Orcs] would at least 'be real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making -- necessary to their actual existence -- even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question..." (Letter #153, Sept. 1954, p 195)

So, JRRT admitted the "redeemability" of Orcs (grudgingly) but he was still trying to argue that they might be denied the possession of a "soul," and therefore, presumably, one could slaughter them and incur no guilt. But this would force him, at least in part to deny the Christianity he tried so hard to put into LotR.

"With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin." (Letter # 269, May, 1965, p. 355)

WHAT?! Tolkien now says that the book does not need to follow the principles of Christianity? But how then can it be a "Christian" book? Well, JRRT tells us elsewhere, it is STILL consonant with Christianity in some points, but maybe, where it suits his purposes, it is NOT so Christian after all?

Tolkien concluded this passage of Letter #269, with a very "lawyer-sly" and convoluted argument in which he compared his Orcs to the Real World "dehumanized" monsters (did he have Hitler and his henchmen in mind here?). But how does this make them souless? Tolkien's argument holds no water in the Christian faith, because even our worst "monsters" are still considered Children of God, with souls and a chance at redemption. So, if the doxology of Christianity is to be operant in Middle-earth, then Orcs MUST have souls, MUST have the grace of potential redeemabilty. Only by denying the full Christian connection with Middle-earth, can JRRT get around this impasse. He cannot tell us, though he actually tries to do this in Letter #269, that Christianity will work in ME only for some items, but not all. If Orcs are to be souless and irredeemable, as I think JRRT originally intended them, then the book is no longer consonant with Christian principles.

There was, perhaps, some room for a "compromise" even here. By accident or design, JRRT, when he depicted his Orcs interacting with one another, gave them a rudimentary system of ethics and morality. Perhaps JRRT could have added a few paragraphs to LotR to enhance this, as I think such episodes hint at a less than verminous, "absolute evil" nature for the Orcs. As we read through LotR we might want to mark such passages and consider: do the Orcs have any "redeeming" characteristics; and just what would we accept as evidence of "redeemability" anyway? Do they ever act for the good of the group rather than the self? Do they have laws, rules, principles of "morality" that they hold up as goals for "proper" Orc behaviour, even if they rarely meet their own standards? Are there heroes among the Orcs? Maybe, JRRT's Orcs are more "human" than he himself was able to realize?

Poor JRRT, he wrote his book with a "racist" "dehumanizing" formula at hand, at least where the Orcs were concerned, and yet he wrote it to be compatible with Christian ethics and doxology -- he only realized after 1956 that the two schemes might be incompatible. Sigh, no matter how much he wanted it, he could not have it both ways -- dehumanized, souless, unredeeemable Orcs could not exist in a Christianized book, one or the other would have to go. Unfortunately, JRRT "went" before he could correct this inconsistency.
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Dagor-
My mind is still boggling ferociously after reading your last letter...
Actually, when I had first composed my letter on "Goblins and Orcs" - I had written down a lot of stuff about how "that kind of thinking" ( using Racism and reducing people to "less than human" status is often used by governments - and not just the Nazis - ( or even by simply one group of peoples against another ) to rationialize killing without guilt, and to make it seem like the killing is a "good thing"
 ...And also, how, for the soldier himself, on the individual level ,in the middle of an actual war,  must make his enemy a "faceless" one, or he would be unable to function at all in his role as a soldier ... ( I am not passing judgement on the soldier himself, whether his actions in that way are right or wrong )... I was so fortunate as to never have to go to war myself ...I had always considered myself a Pacifist, and had prepared ( when I was a teenager, and the War in Vietnam was still going strong ) to become a Conscientious Objector, when the need arose- I felt that I would always be totally incapable of ever taking the life of any fellow human being - to me, that felt like the ultimate "Mortal Sin"  - that could never be forgiven, no matter how much it was "sanctioned" by the Authorities - and that I could never live with the guilt . ---
But, having heard it related ( in a documentary ) by a soldier ( who was in the "thick of it" in in Europe in WWII ) - and who, up to the time when he actually pulled the trigger for the first time, was unbearably anxious  and agitated ( physically, emotionally, mentally ) - his heart pounding in his ears - but then after he killed his first human being, it became "easy" to kill - he developed a little mental "device" -
he only looked through the gunsight to see what kind of helmet the man he was about to shoot had on -  
if it was an "enemy" helmet - he would shoot. Like I said, I am not passing judgement on his actions - only that I think his story made me "understand" ( as much as it possible for one who has never actually had to be in a real war ) the soldier's mind in that situation ---
 
But anyway, getting back to the Goblins and Orcs, I could see where JRRT might be embarrassed if he realized that his greatest creation could be considered "Anti-Christian" in some way - but at the same time,
I'm not sure if would be fair to call his depictions of Orcs as "Racist" ( however technically speaking that might be accurate )  --- I'm reminded of that famous quote from Sigmund Freud that "...sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar..." .... perhaps sometimes, a Goblin is just a Goblin, and an Orc is just an Orc.
After all, we are dealing here with Dragons, and Elves and Trolls and Hobbits and Dwarves and Wizards and Talking Eagles and all manner of mythological beings in basically "The Land Of Faerie" - I'm just not sure if its all that fair to apply the same standards from the Real World to Tolkien's invented world , in spite of how carefully consructed and "true to its own reality" it is ( I realize that JRRT sort of "opened the door" to those arguments, though, by insisting his creation was a "fictional" account of a real time in our own Earth's history, instead of being a "Parallel Universe" or some such other similar concept ) ---
 
I think it should be added too, that ( in fairness ) the Orcs are never slaughtered needlessly in the story, nobody is running around kiling them for the "sheer joy of it" ( well, maybe just a little of that at "Helm's Deep") - but always only in what amounts to an act of self-defense and self-preservation...
            ***  SPOILER  ??? ***
And, I don't know if this count for the Orc's "Redemption" but at the point in the story where they become released from their thralldom to Sauron, they are removed from the endless cycle of killing and being killed
( and I know many of them are "wandering around witless" ) but there is no mention of them all being rounded up and slaughtered ... ---        Ardo
 
 
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

That "winking, smiling face" in my last post was not supposed to be there. That's the second time those little guys have appeared on my rough drafts, without any doing on my part ( as if by some mysterious force ) -
but, the first time that happened, I was able to eradicate the little blighter before I sent in the final version. ---
I guess this last one did wind up in semi- appropriate spot , somehow - but I was writing a serious letter - and I really had no intention of putting it there... I should have "Previewed" my post one more time ---      Ardo
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

[ Edited ]
Good Morning, Ardo:

RE: Ardo's "I'm not sure if would be fair to call his depictions of Orcs as "Racist" ( however technically speaking that might be accurate ) --- I'm reminded of that famous quote from Sigmund Freud that '...sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...' .... perhaps sometimes, a Goblin is just a Goblin, and an Orc is just an Orc."

My point is that the Orcs in Tolkien function precisely as a "race" in the Middle-earth stories. They are even defined that way by Tolkien himself, probably because that paradigm of explanation was all about him in own his real world, and at the time he was writing, it was a very widely accepted way of explaining such things as why Great Britain must go to war against the Chinese, the Zulus, the Xhosha, etc. etc. So Middle-earth, I would argue, becomes a microcosm of our own real world history. Yes, the Orcs are a "made-up" people, an artificial "race" of warriors who were designed to be The Other, The Alien, the implacable merciless foes who deserved no mercy themselves because they were so "non-human" that treating them with mercy simply would do no good. I cannot recall ANY passage in Tolkien where Orcs were allowed to surrender, were then taken away in captivity as POWs and treated with the same basic dignity accorded to the various Men who were captured by the "good guys." The only captive goblin I recall was in The Hobbit, captured, interrogated and then executed by Beorn. The Dunlendings are defeated, captured and then accorded mercy after Helm's Deep -- where are the Orc prisoners? There are none, they are fully exterminated (out of sight and out of mind) beneath the shades of the Huorn forest. After the last battle before the Black Gate, many of Sauron's Man slaves, servants, allies are captured, and shown mercy, being given the lands around the bitter sea of Nurn to farm for themselves. Are there any Orc lands set aside for surviving goblins? Do any goblins survive in the long term? Some go running off witless, unpursued, not necessarily because the Forces of the West are being merciful, but maybe more because an army of a few thousands might find such a pursuit could still cost them more than it might be worth? LOL, sometimes, "if it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, has feathers like a duck, it just may truly be, a duck," racism is racism wherever it is found?

I would also point out that "survival and defense" are ALWAYS used as excuses for war. The survival of the "free world" demanded U.S. intervention in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and maybe soon in Iran. For the "survival" and defense of the German Volk, Hitler went to war in 1939. For the protection of the British colony of Natal, Chelmsford invaded Zululand, and for their own defense and survival, the Zulus fought back. Maybe I've just grown old and cynical, but I think "survival and defense" was the catchword for U.S. assaults on the Native North Americans? How much of this was "justified," how much simple hypocritical rhetoric? Cannot the Orcs claim with as much validity that they too are locked in a fundamental struggle for survival? Things get murky here...

Keep in mind also that Tolkien was always stressing that Middle-earth was our own world, that his Rohirrim, Numenoreans, Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves, Dragons and Goblins are to be regarded NOT as fairy-tale, made-up creatures. They are REAL beings, with true counterparts in our own modern world, though some are now presumably extinct (I do think I saw a dragon a few days ago, just a "corner of the eye thing," could have been mistaken; and surely the lady who gave me such hassles at the grocery checkout line was an Orc?). Any way, Tolkien's "races" function as real world equivalents, do they not? He certainly seems to present them that way.

I was going to develop this theme somewhat differently, but matters have progressed here in ways I did not anticipate, so let me just state that, except where he treats Orcs, JRRT's racism is fairly mild stuff. He is quite aware that even among his nobler races there will be individuals who are just plain bad, egotistical, even murderous -- like Feanor of the Noldor. There will be Black Numenoreans, noble-born members of the High race of Men who become corrupted and evil like Angmar of the Nazgul. Some Sylvan Elves hunted to near extinction the Petty Dwarves, even some hobbits become the willing tools of evil, like Ted Sandyman the miller, Otho, Lotho and Lobelia (though JRRT allows Lobelia's eventual redemption!). Some Dwarves are noble, true-hearted, others are actually in contact with the goblins. Even in his treatment of the Dunlendings, he is careful to point out that they have valid grievances of some 500 years standing, they were displaced by the Rohirrim from many of their land holdings and so they join Saruman in an attempt to drive out the Forgoil, the invaders from the north. Tolkien's racism is never a one-dimensional thing, and never particularly pejorative/ nasty -- but still, it is racism. And, why would he not write in that vein? It was one of the background "givens" of his time. Would he use such a race platform today? I doubt it, and I doubt that he would have so clearly dehumanized the Orcs, or he would have saved himself by giving them some other mechanism of generation, so that the Orcs could be truly classed as fully alien creatures, not the distant brothers of Men and Elves. But then, we run into the same problem with Christianity, how could Tolkien's Eru (based on the omnipotent Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God) accept the creation of a fully alien, souless, absolutely unredeemable group of beings?

I think so many Tolkien readers have trouble seeing racism in his works precisely because we are now conditioned to define "racism" out of existence; instead of seeing it everywhere (as may have been the case in the 1970s) we now see it NOWHERE. Is there a more valid middle ground somewhere?

Thanks Ardo!

OK, Fan, I'll give it a rest now!

Message Edited by Dagor on 03-25-2008 12:29 PM
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

 Good Evening Dagor...
 
Your logic is flawless, your arguments are formidably strong, and your knowledge of the subject being discussed is deep ... I feel sort of like an Ent banging my head against the sleek, impenetrable surface of Orthanc when it comes to my own puny arguments versus your thesises...
( this is where I need one of those "Laughing Smiley-Faces" )
 
 I was thinking about that occurrance at The Battle Of Helm's Deep with the Huorns and the Orcs ( last night, as I was writing my last letter- and afterwards ) --- And, yes, it does seem like the orcs were "exterminated" in that case - but it still strikes me as a case of "Self-Defense" ( no matter what argument you might favor against the validity of the  "Self-Defense Defense/Rationalization" ) - It is Saruman who has declared war on the Trees, and sent his Orcs to kill the trees ( for his own purposes ) - and it seems like a genuine case of "Kill or be killed" ( for the Trees ) in this situation. ---
And, perhaps it is only "Revenge Killing" by the Huorns - but its seems like a well-deserved revenge. And I also suppose this is another case of "Unfair Treatment of Orcs" - But it also would seem like the Men who fought on Saruman's side have been "duped" into "going along for the ride" - they are not the same "Mortal Enemies" of the Trees in the same way that the Orcs seem to be ---
As I said before, I realize that JRRT "opened the door" to these arguments, by insisting that Middle-earth
was a fictional rendering of a real time and place in the Real World - but, as a reader, I had always preferred to think of Middle-earth as existing in its own reality - something more along the lines of a "Parallel Universe".
( and a setting wherein the existence of "Monsters" are just that - "Monsters" and not stand-ins for any
 Real World Beings, except for the "Monsters" in our own Psyches or Imaginations ) ---  And I believe I came to my "realization" that Goblins and Orcs were "soul-less" ( again, when I was very young ) not so much because I was totally unaware of the presence of Racism in the Real World - but actually, because I was ( quite frankly ) terrified that there might even be a hint of that same Racism  in the works ( or the mind ) of my beloved favorite author. ( in that way you are right - as it applies to me - I was too willing not to "see" the presence of Rascism in Tolkien's works - I wanted to be in "denial" of even the possibility
of its presence, in any way, shape or form ) ---
 
Ardo Whortleberry
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"Middle-earth Is A State Of Mind"
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Ardo Whortleberry
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oldBPLstackdenizen
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Not for the sake of any argument, but to clarify the reasons why I first came to the conclusion  that Goblins and Orcs had no souls, I feel like I need to do some more explaining ...
I had already explained why I felt this way ( again, when I was much younger ) but I feel the need to revisit that explanation and to re-emphasize my own ( youthful ) perspectives on this matter...
 
You see, in my first readings of [ H ] & LOTR, I wasn't sure if any of the beings in the stories had souls or not...I mean that quite seriously, not frivolously ( or only for the sake of argument )...
As I've mentioned before, I grew up in the Roman Catholic religious tradition - I really was a "Good Catholic Boy" - and had been to Mass every Sunday,  had been to Confession and taken Communion - the whole works... Catholicism and Christianity ( the whole "Judeo-Christian Tradition" ) had been engrained in my psyche  since "Day One" ( as the saying goes )...
But when I came to reading the works of JRRT, I could not find any overt evidence of any "religious" precepts
staring out at me ... There was no talk of a "Heaven" or "Hell" that I noticed ...
The only "Immortal" beings I could see were the Elves ( and even they could get killed - and being killed - that was the end of it  ) ... If anyone else wanted to live forever, it seemed like that they had to get on a boat and go over the Great Sea ( into the "West" ) to the Undying Lands ... ( the first time I ever came across any indication that this was otherwise was in  The Appendices to LOTR, when there was mention of
Aragorn and Arwen meeting "...beyond the Circles of the World" ...
Of course, there was also Gandalf going to and coming back from "The Other Side" - but even in that case, I pictured it more in terms of his being
transported only to the other side of the ocean ( even if it would have to be his "soul" or "spirit" that was being
transported - I realize that - but it was still not being transported back and forth from to a "Heaven" and "Earth" in the way that I would have pictured "Heaven and Earth" - this 'Heaven" was apparently accessable by physical means, although it did appear that the "Lords" of this "Paradise" could decide who was to be allowed entry or not )...Also, it was explained ( in the very end - even after the story - again, in The Appendices ) that Gandalf had come from that land of Valinor to begin with, so he was not like all the other "regular" human beings about in the stories...
Even the idea of the Valinor themselves, I did not make the direct correlation between what they were and "Angels" or any other "Spiritual" beings that I might have thought of in terms of
my "real" religion -( or any "real" religion ) - They were  ( to my mind ) just what they were to the Elves - towards whom they looked back towards the "West" ( and perhaps up into the sky - into the "heavens" but not into "Heaven" ) for help and guidance and protection -  the whole business really did seem completely "Pagan" - as that is the only word that comes close to what I am trying to describe -
I guess it all goes back to my perception ( however erroneous ) that Middle-earth was more of a "Parallel
Universe" than any kind of representation of our own actual Earth...
And I did most of my readings of [ H ] and LOTR before "The Silmarillion" was published - so these
impressions of the "paganism" of Middle-earth were already quite set in my conciousness before I even tried to read that book - and to be quite frank, I was disappointed when I discovered the opening passages dealt with an actual "Creator God" and a "Creation Story" -- To me, before, the only "Creator" in Middle-earth was that of its own innate Nature and "Naturalness"   ---
I guess old JRRT would have been shocked if had known I had felt that way - perhaps his awareness of how the popularity of his books had helped encourage a kind of "New Paganism" among some of his readers is what made him want to emphasize so much how his stories were based on a Christian ethos...
Ardo Whortleberry
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lorien
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Ardo Said
Not for the sake of any argument, but to clarify the reasons why I first came to the conclusion that Goblins and Orcs had no souls, I feel like I need to do some more explaining
-----------------------------

I'm actually not all that sure what a "soul" is. In our simpler populated world, I gather humans have soul and all other living creatures do not. The distinction I am seeing in the far more complicated populations of Middle-earth is that there are Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits (really a type of Men), and possibly Ents representing human types. I don't know where the Eagles fit in. Wizards are different being altogether. There are good and bad types within each group so the division is not the good humans against the bad Orcs.

Orcs (and various types) and Trolls are kind of human types but seem to be irredeemable bad. The first group good or bad seem to have moral free will to chose good or bad, while the second has no moral free will. They are servants of Sauron or Saruman--almost on the level of machines. Their free will is limited to animal type choices--how should we cook a dwarf. When Sauron is destroyed they lose all direction. The situation would probably the same is some benevolent person had created a species of totally good types, but without freedom of moral choice they would also be soul-less.
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TiggerBear
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Sorry, but its a Judeo/Cristian/Muslim belief that only humans have souls. It pretty common in other cultures for soul to be more wide spread.

Perhaps this is effecting your view.
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Good Morning, Tigger Bear ( and Company ) ...
 
TiggerBear, your comment left me a little puzzled is in how it related to my comments ... perhaps the way I presented my comments was confusing  ... I will try and simplify them and summarize them again
( as best I can ) ---
**** I feel like there are a lot of SPOILERS here****
 
My point was not that I felt ONLY the Humans had souls in [ M-e ] ( based on my impressions from reading [ H ] and LOTR ) ---
It was that: my first impressions were that NOBODY in [ M-e ] had souls. --- It seemed to me that, when you died, that was it - there was no "afterlife", as far as I could tell. ---
It seemed like only the Elves ( who had not yet been, by some chance, killed ) could transport their ( still living ) bodies over to Paradise ( "The Undying Lands" ) and do so in a physical manner. ---
The hobbit "Ring-Bearers" were the only hobbits allowed to take this route. ---
Gandalf had bent sent from "Over There" ( out of "The West" ) and so was allowed to return ( once his labors were finished )  - although it does appear that he had possibly already returned there in "Spirit Form" ( after the Bridge at Khazad-Dum  ) and returned to [ M-e ]  ( presumably in either a new body, or perhaps a reconditioned same old body - its all not exactly clear ) ---
It does appear that Saruman tries to send his soul ( or spirit  ) back to Valinor  ( after he is killed ) but is denied. --- ( but these seemed like "special cases" to me - as both Saruman and Gandalf were not ordinary
beings, but had been sent from Valinor, perhaps some of the Valar, themselves... )
Throughout [ H ] and LOTR, I never heard any references to one all-knowing, all-powerful, Creator God --
So, the whole atmosphere seemed to me to be very "Paganistic" - perhaps even "Atheistic" ---
And I enjoyed the stories that way. ---
Which is why I was disappointed when I first tried to read "The Silmarillion" and found that there WAS
supposed to be a "Creator God" behind all of Middle-earth, and that JRRT's creation was not as
( excitingly - for me? ) paganistic or atheistic as it first appeared. ( even though I already knew that JRRT
was a Roman Catholic, and would not be likely to write any stories that WERE paganistic or atheistic- but I still clung to my first notions, because that was the way I percieved [ M-e ] to be, in my own imagination.---
I hope this clarified what I meant ...
Ardo  
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lorien
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Ardo said:
It seemed to me that, when you died, that was it - there was no "afterlife", as far as I could tell. ---
It seemed like only the Elves ( who had not yet been, by some chance, killed ) could transport their ( still living ) bodies over to Paradise ( "The Undying Lands" ) and do so in a physical manner. ---
--------------------------

Hold that thought, Ardo. A little later I will have a comment on it in the FOTR: Chapter 9-12 thread. There is an interesting statement in Chapter 11 that does indicate that mortals did go to an afterlife but it is relevant to that chapter discussion. I was very surprised.
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Thank You Very Much, I will "hold that thought", lorien...:smileyhappy:
 
After all my other eggsplainin' from before, I feel like I may have inadvertently painted a rather bleak picture of a Middle-earth  that seemed almost lifeless and dull... [ M-e ] also always seemed to be vibrant with life, and not only its people, but animals and trees ( and yes, even orcs ) all seemed to at least have some sort of "Conciousness" or even "Spirit" - my impressions all revolved around the traditional ( yes, Judeo-Christian-Muslim ) concepts of an "Afterlife" and "Heaven and Hell"... And if there was any kind of "Worship" going on in [ M-e ] - it at least appeared to be some kind of "Nature Worship" more than anything else...
( The Valar were called upon for help, guidance and protection, but it didn't seem like they were being "worshipped" , exactly, as far as I could tell )  ---                         Ardo
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Dagor
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth


oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:
One more follow up on the same subject ...
My own mentioning of Hitler and Wagner in the same breath reminded me of something I recalled hearing or reading somewhere - so I did a little research, and it appears that Wagner was one of the most virulent professed Anti-Semites of all time, and that he also "built in" his warped beliefs into his operas -
Especially through the way the operas were supposed to be ( and actually were ) presented ( in Wagner's time, and for some time afterwards ) -- and that the dwarves ( such as Alberich and Mime ) were very thinly-veiled vicious characterizations of
"The Evil Jew" - and, indeed, ( for both Wagner, Hitler and the Nazis ) the whole Ring Cycle/Siegfried story comes off as some kind of parable pitting the "Aryan" Hero against the "evil influence of the Jews", and then vanquishing them in the end ... ( it's all a bit more complicated than that, but that's basically what it all boils down to ) .... So, I'm curious - is it possible the reason JRRT was so adamant about his stories not being influenced by The Ring Cycle in any way was ( at least in part ) due to his knowledge about all this, especially in light of the incredible atrocities of the Nazi regime that came to light at the end of
The Second World War? ( and his wish to disassociate himself from that evilness entirely? ) ---
Ardo Whortleberry
Tolkien Reader






Ardo, this is VERY interesting! RE: "is it possible the reason JRRT was so adamant about his stories not being influenced by The Ring Cycle in any way was ( at least in part ) due to his knowledge about all this, especially in light of the incredible atrocities of the Nazi regime that came to light at the end of
The Second World War? (and his wish to disassociate himself from that evilness entirely? )"

As TiggerBear once pointed out, the similarities between Wagner's Ring and JRRT's are manifold -- why did he always deny the connection? It may be that he wanted to disassociate himself from the whole hyper-racism of the Nazis, something Wagner foreshadowed in his own virulent anti-Semitism. It might also be as simple as an author's pique at having readers constantly tell him he "plagiarized" Wagner's material. But why did JRRT not simply say, that both he and Wagner could be expected to have similarities because both were using the same Nordic traditions and sagas as source material?
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

[ Edited ]

oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:
Thank You Very Much, I will "hold that thought", lorien...:smileyhappy:
After all my other eggsplainin' from before, I feel like I may have inadvertently painted a rather bleak picture of a Middle-earth that seemed almost lifeless and dull... [ M-e ] also always seemed to be vibrant with life, and not only its people, but animals and trees ( and yes, even orcs ) all seemed to at least have some sort of "Conciousness" or even "Spirit" - my impressions all revolved around the traditional ( yes, Judeo-Christian-Muslim ) concepts of an "Afterlife" and "Heaven and Hell"... And if there was any kind of "Worship" going on in [ M-e ] - it at least appeared to be some kind of "Nature Worship" more than anything else...
( The Valar were called upon for help, guidance and protection, but it didn't seem like they were being "worshipped" , exactly, as far as I could tell ) --- Ardo





Hmmm, maybe we need to open a new discussion thread on "Religion in Tolkien's Middle-earth" -- something where "belief systems" (god concepts; after-life; ethics of daily behaviour) and their "ritual expressions" (forms of worship) might be discussed? A part of this might be: just how "Pagan" is Middle-earth and how "Christian?"

Message Edited by Dagor on 04-02-2008 12:02 PM
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lorien
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Dagor Wrote:
Hmmm, maybe we need to open a new discussion thread on "Religion in Tolkien's Middle-earth" -- something where "belief systems" (god concepts; after-life; ethics of daily behaviour) and their "ritual expressions" (forms of worship) might be discussed? A part of this might be: just how "Pagan" is Middle-earth and how "Christian?"
--------------------
I think that is an excellent idea, Dagor. I don't know if we should call the thread "Religion", though. I think of religion as a prescribed set of beliefs and rituals and I don't see that on Middle-Earth at all. There is probably more in the Silm. I know JRRT was trying to avoid it but I can't imagine any human type civilization without it. Maybe "Spiritual Beliefs" or something like that would make a better heading because it is general. I do think JRRT own beliefs do sneak in there but I'm not sure if they are really totally orthodox and that would also be a worthwhile topic of discussion. They do seem to be a cross between Catholic theology, pagan concepts and Tolkien's own spin.
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