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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-21-2008 06:57 PM
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Ardo Whortleberry
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-22-2008 05:27 AM
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Ardo Whortleberry
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03-24-2008 05:50 PM
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-24-2008 06:06 PM
oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:Concerning Goblins and Orcs and etcetera....I came to the conclusion very early on ( when I was still quite young - and in my very first readings of "The Hobbit" and LOTR ) that goblins ( and subsequently, orcs ) had to be so completely non-human in every respect, that that could not even be considered a "race" ( unlike the other, more human-like "races" such as hobbits, elves, dwarves, men ) - but that they had to something else altogether - some kind of monsters or even devils ( and possibly "soul-less" ) --- Otherwise, how could the heroes of the stories feel absolutely no remorse at the slaying of all these otherwise sentinent beings?I don't think I reached this grand conclusion by any great philosophical machinations - it was more of simply a case of my wanting to be able to enjoy reading the stories without having to feel any pangs of guilt myself -( one could even enjoy seeing all those vicious goblins/orcs getting their heads chopped off or otherwise dispatched - because, after all - they were "just" goblins/orcs - and representations of "Evil" ) ---And, even if it wasn't true that they had no souls entirely ( I must have reasoned ) - they were so evil and malicious that they could be considered to be some kind of "devil-creatures" -- AlthoughI always saw Middle-earth as a pagan, pre-Christian setting - one with the presence of "Good and Evil" - but not the traditional religious concepts of "Heaven and Hell" ---Except for the presence of the "Forever Lands" ( on the other side of the Great Sea ) - but the naming of a specific "Creator-God" does not come until "The Silmarillion" - as far as I can recall - And it could be said that Sauron desired to impose a kind of "Hell on Earth" ( if he ruled the world ) - but that is not exactly the same thing as "Hell" itself ---Good Afternoon To All,Ardo WhortleberryTolkien Reader
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-24-2008 07:19 PM
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That would be saying Elves and Dwarves killing each other would feel remorse. But then you have Legolas and Gimli hating each other and read to kill each other on sight in the beginning.
And since when is man wholly hesitant to kill other men. All it takes is some matter of separation, otherness and guilt evaporates.
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-24-2008 07:58 PM
Fanuidhol wrote:Uh-oh! Now you've done it, Arlo! Just wait until Dagor sees this...though it has been so long, I forget which side of this debate he's on....I'm on the Orcs do have souls side. I believe that it is possible for them to be redeemed. (But, only as written and published in Silm and LotR)More later.Fan
oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:Concerning Goblins and Orcs and etcetera....I came to the conclusion very early on ( when I was still quite young - and in my very first readings of "The Hobbit" and LOTR ) that goblins ( and subsequently, orcs ) had to be so completely non-human in every respect, that that could not even be considered a "race" ( unlike the other, more human-like "races" such as hobbits, elves, dwarves, men ) - but that they had to something else altogether - some kind of monsters or even devils ( and possibly "soul-less" ) --- Otherwise, how could the heroes of the stories feel absolutely no remorse at the slaying of all these otherwise sentinent beings?I don't think I reached this grand conclusion by any great philosophical machinations - it was more of simply a case of my wanting to be able to enjoy reading the stories without having to feel any pangs of guilt myself -( one could even enjoy seeing all those vicious goblins/orcs getting their heads chopped off or otherwise dispatched - because, after all - they were "just" goblins/orcs - and representations of "Evil" ) ---And, even if it wasn't true that they had no souls entirely ( I must have reasoned ) - they were so evil and malicious that they could be considered to be some kind of "devil-creatures" -- AlthoughI always saw Middle-earth as a pagan, pre-Christian setting - one with the presence of "Good and Evil" - but not the traditional religious concepts of "Heaven and Hell" ---Except for the presence of the "Forever Lands" ( on the other side of the Great Sea ) - but the naming of a specific "Creator-God" does not come until "The Silmarillion" - as far as I can recall - And it could be said that Sauron desired to impose a kind of "Hell on Earth" ( if he ruled the world ) - but that is not exactly the same thing as "Hell" itself ---Good Afternoon To All,Ardo WhortleberryTolkien Reader
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-24-2008 10:34 PM
When JRRT uses Orcs in this fashion, as creatures so far twisted away from "human" standards as to be nothing more than "vermin," I think he unwittingly was playing into one of the forms of racism that, in our Real World history, has become the most atrocious -- Orcs, "dehumanized," are now available for use as "sword-fodder," candidates for utter extermination.
Here JRRT got trapped in his orthodox Christianity. He believed in One God acting as the Only Creator. So, JRRT was not able to allow Morgoth to create the Orcs as a fully separate class of totally evil, totally un-redeemable beings. If he had created the Orcs as a species completely separated from the "human/ Elf" he might have been able to get away with this. But Morgoth (in a Christianized existence) had to make his Orcs from matter already at hand, he could twist, corrupt -- but not really create anything new. So, the Orcs originally were Elves, and later some Men were likewise altered into Orc status through capture, forced-breeding, torture, fear, pain, coercion. Even JRRT realized this meant that Orcs, by absolute dictate of his Christian religious base, HAD to be redeemable, HAD to be viewed as something other than noxious vermin. But here, I think he stumbled, he simply could not bring himself to regard the Orcs as anything other than verminous -- besides, it would require considerable re-writing of his lengthy book to sort out this problem.
This "paradox" would plague JRRT later, after LotR was published and it drew a number of Christian thinkers who started analyzing the tale in depth. They spotted this conundrum quite early on and asked Tolkien for clarification. One way to get out of this situation would be to simply deny that Eru, God of the Middle-earth universe was the Judaeo-Islamic-Christian God -- but JRRT was unwilling to de-couple Middle-earth and our own Real World, unwilling to drop his Middle-earth "god" as God. So he was forced to admit that Orcs were "human" too, and even though he did not want to admit it, his Christian critics pointed out that this automatically made them ensouled beings created by the All Good, All Powerful, All knowing, All Merciful God of Abraham. Therefore, they deserved better treatment than mere extermination as absolute vermin.
Tolkien was forced to accept this truth, but he "waffled" here, admiting that Orcs MUST indeed be redeemable, but did they have souls? Was it still OK to exterminate them?
"They [Orcs] would at least 'be real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making -- necessary to their actual existence -- even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question..." (Letter #153, Sept. 1954, p 195)
So, JRRT admitted the "redeemability" of Orcs (grudgingly) but he was still trying to argue that they might be denied the possession of a "soul," and therefore, presumably, one could slaughter them and incur no guilt. But this would force him, at least in part to deny the Christianity he tried so hard to put into LotR.
"With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin." (Letter # 269, May, 1965, p. 355)
WHAT?! Tolkien now says that the book does not need to follow the principles of Christianity? But how then can it be a "Christian" book? Well, JRRT tells us elsewhere, it is STILL consonant with Christianity in some points, but maybe, where it suits his purposes, it is NOT so Christian after all?
Tolkien concluded this passage of Letter #269, with a very "lawyer-sly" and convoluted argument in which he compared his Orcs to the Real World "dehumanized" monsters (did he have Hitler and his henchmen in mind here?). But how does this make them souless? Tolkien's argument holds no water in the Christian faith, because even our worst "monsters" are still considered Children of God, with souls and a chance at redemption. So, if the doxology of Christianity is to be operant in Middle-earth, then Orcs MUST have souls, MUST have the grace of potential redeemabilty. Only by denying the full Christian connection with Middle-earth, can JRRT get around this impasse. He cannot tell us, though he actually tries to do this in Letter #269, that Christianity will work in ME only for some items, but not all. If Orcs are to be souless and irredeemable, as I think JRRT originally intended them, then the book is no longer consonant with Christian principles.
There was, perhaps, some room for a "compromise" even here. By accident or design, JRRT, when he depicted his Orcs interacting with one another, gave them a rudimentary system of ethics and morality. Perhaps JRRT could have added a few paragraphs to LotR to enhance this, as I think such episodes hint at a less than verminous, "absolute evil" nature for the Orcs. As we read through LotR we might want to mark such passages and consider: do the Orcs have any "redeeming" characteristics; and just what would we accept as evidence of "redeemability" anyway? Do they ever act for the good of the group rather than the self? Do they have laws, rules, principles of "morality" that they hold up as goals for "proper" Orc behaviour, even if they rarely meet their own standards? Are there heroes among the Orcs? Maybe, JRRT's Orcs are more "human" than he himself was able to realize?
Poor JRRT, he wrote his book with a "racist" "dehumanizing" formula at hand, at least where the Orcs were concerned, and yet he wrote it to be compatible with Christian ethics and doxology -- he only realized after 1956 that the two schemes might be incompatible. Sigh, no matter how much he wanted it, he could not have it both ways -- dehumanized, souless, unredeeemable Orcs could not exist in a Christianized book, one or the other would have to go. Unfortunately, JRRT "went" before he could correct this inconsistency.
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-25-2008 06:35 AM
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Ardo Whortleberry
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03-25-2008 06:49 AM
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-25-2008 11:50 AM - edited 03-25-2008 12:29 PM
RE: Ardo's "I'm not sure if would be fair to call his depictions of Orcs as "Racist" ( however technically speaking that might be accurate ) --- I'm reminded of that famous quote from Sigmund Freud that '...sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...' .... perhaps sometimes, a Goblin is just a Goblin, and an Orc is just an Orc."
My point is that the Orcs in Tolkien function precisely as a "race" in the Middle-earth stories. They are even defined that way by Tolkien himself, probably because that paradigm of explanation was all about him in own his real world, and at the time he was writing, it was a very widely accepted way of explaining such things as why Great Britain must go to war against the Chinese, the Zulus, the Xhosha, etc. etc. So Middle-earth, I would argue, becomes a microcosm of our own real world history. Yes, the Orcs are a "made-up" people, an artificial "race" of warriors who were designed to be The Other, The Alien, the implacable merciless foes who deserved no mercy themselves because they were so "non-human" that treating them with mercy simply would do no good. I cannot recall ANY passage in Tolkien where Orcs were allowed to surrender, were then taken away in captivity as POWs and treated with the same basic dignity accorded to the various Men who were captured by the "good guys." The only captive goblin I recall was in The Hobbit, captured, interrogated and then executed by Beorn. The Dunlendings are defeated, captured and then accorded mercy after Helm's Deep -- where are the Orc prisoners? There are none, they are fully exterminated (out of sight and out of mind) beneath the shades of the Huorn forest. After the last battle before the Black Gate, many of Sauron's Man slaves, servants, allies are captured, and shown mercy, being given the lands around the bitter sea of Nurn to farm for themselves. Are there any Orc lands set aside for surviving goblins? Do any goblins survive in the long term? Some go running off witless, unpursued, not necessarily because the Forces of the West are being merciful, but maybe more because an army of a few thousands might find such a pursuit could still cost them more than it might be worth? LOL, sometimes, "if it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, has feathers like a duck, it just may truly be, a duck," racism is racism wherever it is found?
I would also point out that "survival and defense" are ALWAYS used as excuses for war. The survival of the "free world" demanded U.S. intervention in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and maybe soon in Iran. For the "survival" and defense of the German Volk, Hitler went to war in 1939. For the protection of the British colony of Natal, Chelmsford invaded Zululand, and for their own defense and survival, the Zulus fought back. Maybe I've just grown old and cynical, but I think "survival and defense" was the catchword for U.S. assaults on the Native North Americans? How much of this was "justified," how much simple hypocritical rhetoric? Cannot the Orcs claim with as much validity that they too are locked in a fundamental struggle for survival? Things get murky here...
Keep in mind also that Tolkien was always stressing that Middle-earth was our own world, that his Rohirrim, Numenoreans, Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves, Dragons and Goblins are to be regarded NOT as fairy-tale, made-up creatures. They are REAL beings, with true counterparts in our own modern world, though some are now presumably extinct (I do think I saw a dragon a few days ago, just a "corner of the eye thing," could have been mistaken; and surely the lady who gave me such hassles at the grocery checkout line was an Orc?). Any way, Tolkien's "races" function as real world equivalents, do they not? He certainly seems to present them that way.
I was going to develop this theme somewhat differently, but matters have progressed here in ways I did not anticipate, so let me just state that, except where he treats Orcs, JRRT's racism is fairly mild stuff. He is quite aware that even among his nobler races there will be individuals who are just plain bad, egotistical, even murderous -- like Feanor of the Noldor. There will be Black Numenoreans, noble-born members of the High race of Men who become corrupted and evil like Angmar of the Nazgul. Some Sylvan Elves hunted to near extinction the Petty Dwarves, even some hobbits become the willing tools of evil, like Ted Sandyman the miller, Otho, Lotho and Lobelia (though JRRT allows Lobelia's eventual redemption!). Some Dwarves are noble, true-hearted, others are actually in contact with the goblins. Even in his treatment of the Dunlendings, he is careful to point out that they have valid grievances of some 500 years standing, they were displaced by the Rohirrim from many of their land holdings and so they join Saruman in an attempt to drive out the Forgoil, the invaders from the north. Tolkien's racism is never a one-dimensional thing, and never particularly pejorative/ nasty -- but still, it is racism. And, why would he not write in that vein? It was one of the background "givens" of his time. Would he use such a race platform today? I doubt it, and I doubt that he would have so clearly dehumanized the Orcs, or he would have saved himself by giving them some other mechanism of generation, so that the Orcs could be truly classed as fully alien creatures, not the distant brothers of Men and Elves. But then, we run into the same problem with Christianity, how could Tolkien's Eru (based on the omnipotent Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God) accept the creation of a fully alien, souless, absolutely unredeemable group of beings?
I think so many Tolkien readers have trouble seeing racism in his works precisely because we are now conditioned to define "racism" out of existence; instead of seeing it everywhere (as may have been the case in the 1970s) we now see it NOWHERE. Is there a more valid middle ground somewhere?
Thanks Ardo!
OK, Fan, I'll give it a rest now!
Message Edited by Dagor on 03-25-2008 12:29 PM
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-25-2008 11:09 PM
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Ardo Whortleberry
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03-27-2008 05:32 PM
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-27-2008 06:00 PM
Not for the sake of any argument, but to clarify the reasons why I first came to the conclusion that Goblins and Orcs had no souls, I feel like I need to do some more explaining
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I'm actually not all that sure what a "soul" is. In our simpler populated world, I gather humans have soul and all other living creatures do not. The distinction I am seeing in the far more complicated populations of Middle-earth is that there are Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits (really a type of Men), and possibly Ents representing human types. I don't know where the Eagles fit in. Wizards are different being altogether. There are good and bad types within each group so the division is not the good humans against the bad Orcs.
Orcs (and various types) and Trolls are kind of human types but seem to be irredeemable bad. The first group good or bad seem to have moral free will to chose good or bad, while the second has no moral free will. They are servants of Sauron or Saruman--almost on the level of machines. Their free will is limited to animal type choices--how should we cook a dwarf. When Sauron is destroyed they lose all direction. The situation would probably the same is some benevolent person had created a species of totally good types, but without freedom of moral choice they would also be soul-less.
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-27-2008 10:23 PM
Perhaps this is effecting your view.
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-28-2008 05:29 AM
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Ardo Whortleberry
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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03-28-2008 10:04 AM
It seemed to me that, when you died, that was it - there was no "afterlife", as far as I could tell. ---
It seemed like only the Elves ( who had not yet been, by some chance, killed ) could transport their ( still living ) bodies over to Paradise ( "The Undying Lands" ) and do so in a physical manner. ---
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Hold that thought, Ardo. A little later I will have a comment on it in the FOTR: Chapter 9-12 thread. There is an interesting statement in Chapter 11 that does indicate that mortals did go to an afterlife but it is relevant to that chapter discussion. I was very surprised.
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03-28-2008 05:11 PM
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Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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04-02-2008 10:57 AM
oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:One more follow up on the same subject ...My own mentioning of Hitler and Wagner in the same breath reminded me of something I recalled hearing or reading somewhere - so I did a little research, and it appears that Wagner was one of the most virulent professed Anti-Semites of all time, and that he also "built in" his warped beliefs into his operas -Especially through the way the operas were supposed to be ( and actually were ) presented ( in Wagner's time, and for some time afterwards ) -- and that the dwarves ( such as Alberich and Mime ) were very thinly-veiled vicious characterizations of"The Evil Jew" - and, indeed, ( for both Wagner, Hitler and the Nazis ) the whole Ring Cycle/Siegfried story comes off as some kind of parable pitting the "Aryan" Hero against the "evil influence of the Jews", and then vanquishing them in the end ... ( it's all a bit more complicated than that, but that's basically what it all boils down to ) .... So, I'm curious - is it possible the reason JRRT was so adamant about his stories not being influenced by The Ring Cycle in any way was ( at least in part ) due to his knowledge about all this, especially in light of the incredible atrocities of the Nazi regime that came to light at the end ofThe Second World War? ( and his wish to disassociate himself from that evilness entirely? ) ---Ardo WhortleberryTolkien Reader
Ardo, this is VERY interesting! RE: "is it possible the reason JRRT was so adamant about his stories not being influenced by The Ring Cycle in any way was ( at least in part ) due to his knowledge about all this, especially in light of the incredible atrocities of the Nazi regime that came to light at the end of
As TiggerBear once pointed out, the similarities between Wagner's Ring and JRRT's are manifold -- why did he always deny the connection? It may be that he wanted to disassociate himself from the whole hyper-racism of the Nazis, something Wagner foreshadowed in his own virulent anti-Semitism. It might also be as simple as an author's pique at having readers constantly tell him he "plagiarized" Wagner's material. But why did JRRT not simply say, that both he and Wagner could be expected to have similarities because both were using the same Nordic traditions and sagas as source material?
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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04-02-2008 12:00 PM - edited 04-02-2008 12:02 PM
oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:Thank You Very Much, I will "hold that thought", lorien...After all my other eggsplainin' from before, I feel like I may have inadvertently painted a rather bleak picture of a Middle-earth that seemed almost lifeless and dull... [ M-e ] also always seemed to be vibrant with life, and not only its people, but animals and trees ( and yes, even orcs ) all seemed to at least have some sort of "Conciousness" or even "Spirit" - my impressions all revolved around the traditional ( yes, Judeo-Christian-Muslim ) concepts of an "Afterlife" and "Heaven and Hell"... And if there was any kind of "Worship" going on in [ M-e ] - it at least appeared to be some kind of "Nature Worship" more than anything else...( The Valar were called upon for help, guidance and protection, but it didn't seem like they were being "worshipped" , exactly, as far as I could tell ) --- Ardo
Hmmm, maybe we need to open a new discussion thread on "Religion in Tolkien's Middle-earth" -- something where "belief systems" (god concepts; after-life; ethics of daily behaviour) and their "ritual expressions" (forms of worship) might be discussed? A part of this might be: just how "Pagan" is Middle-earth and how "Christian?"
Message Edited by Dagor on 04-02-2008 12:02 PM
Re: Inhabitants of Middle-Earth
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04-02-2008 10:05 PM
Hmmm, maybe we need to open a new discussion thread on "Religion in Tolkien's Middle-earth" -- something where "belief systems" (god concepts; after-life; ethics of daily behaviour) and their "ritual expressions" (forms of worship) might be discussed? A part of this might be: just how "Pagan" is Middle-earth and how "Christian?"
--------------------
I think that is an excellent idea, Dagor. I don't know if we should call the thread "Religion", though. I think of religion as a prescribed set of beliefs and rituals and I don't see that on Middle-Earth at all. There is probably more in the Silm. I know JRRT was trying to avoid it but I can't imagine any human type civilization without it. Maybe "Spiritual Beliefs" or something like that would make a better heading because it is general. I do think JRRT own beliefs do sneak in there but I'm not sure if they are really totally orthodox and that would also be a worthwhile topic of discussion. They do seem to be a cross between Catholic theology, pagan concepts and Tolkien's own spin.