Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

[BarbaraN]

Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Discussion moved from FOTR: Book 1: Chapter 3 - 5

Please pick up your discussions of the various inhabitants of Middle-earth here.
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Inhabitants of Middle-Earth

Dagor wrote:
Re: Tigger-Bear's -- "I think the "Hillmen" and "Easterlings" show exactly how Tolkien thought man degraded. Almost to the point of near racism(forgive me I know the man was a product of his era)."

Excellent TiggerBear, in our modern "enlightened" age, it is easy to forget that before the 1950s (and especially in the period 1870 - 1945 when Social Darwinism was at its height) racism was considered an absolute truth, a fact of science and nature alike. Very, very few people did NOT subscribe to the basic tenets of racism during JRRT's life. His books, Silmarillion Hobbit, LOTR are full of racism, including a classification that becomes a hierarchy of race-worth: Vanyar Elves, Noldor, Teleri, Elves of the Twilight, Dark Elves, Numenoreans, Rohirric-Dalesmen, Dunlendings, Easterlings, Swertings, Orcs etc, etc. Tolkien even made a recorded interview where he compared his Dwarves and their lust for gold, and stubborness to the real world Jews. But simply calling Tolkien a racist, would be grossly unfair, especially if we look at his personal response to the ultra-racist threat of his time, the German Nazis. They wanted to publish a good Aryan version of The Hobbit, but needed to know if he had any Jewish blood before they would release it to the German youth. Tolkien replied, paraphrasing here, "I have no Jewish ancestry I'm aware of, but seeing how talented many of them are, I would not mind having a bit of that blood."

We could probably set up an entire thread devoted to understanding in what ways and degrees racisim influenced JRRT and his sub-created realms.

Message Edited by Dagor on 03-13-2008 08:17 PM



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The discussion of Gildor and his merry elves has branched out a bit beyond the content of the chapters. I think this is a fascinating subject and DOES deserve discussion and I'm looking forward to more of it.

I going to try to nudge you all over to a separate topic thread which I will call: Inhabitants of Middle-earth and there we can discuss the nature of dwarves, elves, orcs, men, hobbits, etc as a totality. And racism or any other related topic. Maybe it is a good place for trolls as well. Feel free to copy over your posts and stir up the brew if you wish.

[lorien]

I'm dutifully moving my post:

You are so right, Dagor. Yes, and the Orcs represent what Tolkien considered our negative side. I guess I was "repressing" our negative side! Actually, I wasn't sure where to place them since I was under the impression they were a species of corrupted elves and I hadn't sorted out the elves yet. Also, I had the impression they were more "made" then a breeding stock, which is kind of the way I'm defining humans to differentiate them from human types like Gandalf or Bombadil. This may have been an impression given to me more by the movie where Sauraman was actually manufacturing them. But you are right, they should be included as a human species and part of the analysis.


Dagor wrote:
POTENTIAL SPOILERS?

RE Elves Lorien -- "Tolkien seems to have four breeding populations of human-types in Middle-earth and they ultimately make up the Fellowship ( if I ever get that far ). So I have been thinking about them and Tolkien's point in having more than one race of humans (I know it is all in the Silmirillon!)."

Ah, the poor, unpopular Orcs, they seem to be left out of so many reckonings, like a band of indigent, uncouth cousins no one really wants to claim. Yet, I think they play as large, or even a larger role in Tolkien's scheme of explanation than do the Elves.

Hmm, with JRRT's ideas of creation vrs subcreation, even his Orcs must generate in the "normal" fashion, even Morgoth cannot "create" a new life form that uses some mechanism other than that originally provided for its procreation. Orcs were originally Elves in the early versions of the Silmarillion, and even in his post LOTR thought, they had to find their roots in some pre-existing line of sapient creatures, in this latter example, (Morgoth's Ring) they were to be given a Mortal Man origin.

In pursuing your thought, Lorien, that the various "races" reflect different human types, I agree, it seems that is exactly what JRRT was doing, and, especially given the lovely examples of WW I and WW II, the Orcish element in our make-ups may actually be seen as one of the more dominant sources of our species' general behaviour? This may be foreshadowed even in The Hobbit: "It is not unlikely that they [Goblins] invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help, but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far." (Hobbit, "Over Hill and Under Hill," mid chpt. p. 73 hb version)

In LOTR, the depiction of Orc-Man mixtures, some of them, like the "slant-eyed" southerner sent to Bree (who could pass well enough as Men), gave JRRT a mechanism for explaining many of the anti-social, anti-environment, "evil," military-industrial actions that humans have performed, and still perform so often. Do many of our politicians and industrial barons have an extra-heavy Orcish strain in their backgrounds? I think JRRT may have thought so...

[TiggerBear]

BarbaraN
Firstly thank you, beat me to the punch, saved me some typing, and oddly enough what I was going to name it.
However might I suggest this get listed as a spoiler thread. I hate ruining the books for new readers and the subject since it tends to reference all Tolkien's works, it may be frequently guilty.

[lorien]

Whatever Tolkien's personal beliefs might have been, I don't really see that much racism myself in reading LOTR. I wonder if we might be projecting our own stereotypes on the dwarves whereas Tolkien did not intend any.

I see the dwarves as master craftsmen who loved beautiful things and mined the riches of the earth to find beautiful metals and gems. These objects they produced were mainly for their own enjoyment--decorative or even clever play things like the toys Bilbo gave to the children at his birthday party.

They were playful, had a good sense of humor, were very loyal with a strong sense of duty (see TH), liked to sing and play fine musical instruments (which they most likely made themselves), were resourceful, and they could be fierce warriors when need be (but not usually aggressive), especially when protecting their friends and their possessions.

They also made things for others and expected to be paid a fair market value for them--they did not produce their own food and did need to get it from other people. Some did become overly possessive of the objects they made and this was apparently a weakness that could be exploited especially by Sauron and his Rings, which seem to enhance the weaknesses already inherent in a species. On the whole I don't even see them as a particularly greedy group of people. But even if they were I don't see how that particular attribute can be applied to a group of people--well, maybe corporate executives.

---

Dagor wrote:
Good point Fan, I was paraphrasing here, not using a direct quote -- but, in a topic that is bound to raise hackles on all sides it is best to be as precise as possible. Somewhere I have a copy of the interview I am partially recalling, it may simply be the one you properly quote, in which case we can use that version as the corrected data base.

JRRT: "The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic."

In my opinion, JRRT would have to be incredibly naive to think that listeners/ readers would assume that he meant his Dwarves were ONLY similar to HIS conception of Jews in a "linguistic sense." He actually invites further comparisons with the phrase "in many ways," does he not? So what were (are) the common stereotypes regarding Jews, and what characteristics are developed by JRRT for his Dwarves in the Middle-earth texts? How many of them match? How many of them were deliberate comparisons? Take Shakespeare's Shylock as an example of pejorative Jewish stereotyping, which of the characteristics given Shylock by Old Billy match with JRRT's portrayal of his Dwarves?

I think one of the major stumbling blocks to a fair-minded discussion of the amount and type of racism we find in Tolkien's works comes from the current odium in which racism is now held, at least in our open speech -- though I am certain that racism is still with us, just not as "in-your-face" as once, not so long ago, it was. So, when we find even hints of the now detested racism in a beloved author like Tolkien, the general impulse seems often to be some sort of blanket denial, and some fast scrabbling to downplay any racist elements. What we should do, is get an historical perspective on racism as it was viewed by the general public between 1870 and 1945, and then see how JRRT compares with the racism of his own era, not the concepts of the 21st century. It does Tolkien a disservice to assume that he should be held to our current standards of belief, I think it distorts the ugly history he himself had to live through. To be born into the golden era of racism, and come through it with as little bigotry as he does display is almost miraculous. Read the unexpurgated texts of Jack London, and you'll see how virulent racism can be in another "beloved author," a near contemporary of Tolkien's. JRRT comes out, in my opinion, rather clean and almost modernly, politically correct when compared with many of his contemporaries. This is something to be celebrated, not swept under the rug.

Meanwhile, Fan, I'll look up some of the old articles/ posts on racism in Tolkien's Middle-earth and see if the interview I'm thinking of, is in fact the same one you produced here.

RE Fan's : "The one thing that Tolkien would have known was that Jews were limited by Christians to what careers they could hold back in the Middle Ages to ? (I don't know when the practice ended). Banking/money-lending with interest was one of those. What you assume is a genetic/Semetic cultural trait 'lust for gold' may have been just something imposed on that culture and the Christian 'culture'."

Huh? Did I say THAT?! "What you assume is a genetic/Semetic cultural trait 'lust for gold'..." Where did I say that?!

I think not, Fan. It is NOT MY assumption. I was talking about the current (1870-1945) stereotypes concerning Jews, the racist characteristics associated with Jews by many (not all) of the people who had a shared western-tradition, Christian cultural background. It has certainly NEVER been my personal belief.

The usury laws of "Christian" Europe really began altering around the 15th century with the re-establishment of long distance trading as Europe began to pass from its Medieval period into the "Early Modern." But the stereotype of "gold obsessed" continued to be applied to Jews in general long, long after Christians entered the usurious profit markets themselves.

Message Edited by Dagor on 03-14-2008 08:36 AM

---

[lorien]

---

TiggerBear wrote:
Yep, got a stack of books on my computer desk now because of this stuff.

Melkor's greatest act of blasphemy. Capture of the elves, imprisoned, and tortured; making ruined twisted forms of life. From these he breed a goblin race as loathsome as elves were fair; Orcs.

Movie just credited it to Sauron for clarity's sake.

---

TiggerBear, I missed this before. Somewhere we had a discussion about why "goblins" was used in TH and "orcs" in LOTR and were they the same thing. My interpretation of what you said above is that orcs were not the goblins of TH but a separate race of goblins, probably with different "enhanced" attributes, much in the same way the Uruk-hai were an "enhanced" species of orcs.

[Dagor]

RE: Lorien's -- "Whatever Tolkien's personal beliefs might have been, I don't really see that much racism myself in reading LOTR. I wonder if we might be projecting our own stereotypes on the dwarves whereas Tolkien did not intend any."

___________________

Hmmm, I bet what we need first here is some sort of definitional framework, because I think, Lorien, you and I may have different ideas of what "racism" is.

For myself, I tend to use those definitions most often found in the fields of history and anthropology, definitions that have a direct applicability to the Middle-earth situations Tolkien presents. I take JRRT at his word when he tells us that he is trying to write a pseudo-history of his own universe, and then tie this fantasy realm into our real world history. So, the same set of definitions utilized by professional historians/ anthropologists to determine the presence of racism in our present global cultures should, I presume, work just as well for Tolkien's world.

First, I think it needs to be made very clear that "racism" is not a simple matter, it comes in varying intensities: it can be absolutely blatant as in the strident demands for Jewish extermination 1932-45, or the extermination of Native Americans 1617-1910s; it can also be so very subtle that it amounts to nothing more than a largely subconscious preference that propels us to take one bus seat over another where a "different looking" person is already sitting.


Different levels of racism:

1. Racism as a simple belief that humanity can legitimately be subdivided into groups based upon assigned, shared-characteristics of genetic derivation (genotype); and/ or physical appearance, physical performance capacities, (phenotype). In some systems this will extend to assumed differential intellectual development, and even moral character. This form of racism sometimes masquerades under the supposedly less offensive name of "racialism."


2. Racism as the belief that the various races can be assigned hierarchical positions of superiority/ inferiority.

3) Racism as the belief that there is a natural struggle for survival among the races, and it is the duty of superior races to control or even exterminate their inferiors. (eugenics, social darwinism).

Do we see evidence in any of Tolkien's personal views (Letters, recorded interviews, biographical accounts) and in his published Middel-earth corpus that he uses race concepts? I think we do. Do these examples halt at level 1 "racialism," or do they include the increasingly extreme expressions of racism, #s 2, and 3? Is there a situation of "race conflict" at any time in Tolkien?

But before I start detailing what I see as valid evidence in this regard, I'll give others a chance, if they wish, to formalize their own definitions. Then, if/ when we can agree upon some generally acceptable definitional structures, I think it will make this discussion a smoother process of discovery?

Meanwhile, Lorien has several excellent points that (I think) need to be constantly referred to as we proceed:

How much are we influenced by our own pre-existing biases (pro or con)? When someone avers that they see "racism" in a given passage, is it REALLY there, and what criteria of judgment should we be using in making that determination? If we can agree that in some form or another, we do find "racism," how intense is it? What is the significance of such racism for the narrative tale Tolkien relates, and what is its significance in our judgments of Tolkien as an individual? Then, I would add we need a dual system of judgments, both an inside perspective, emic view point, judging the material from the perspective of Tolkien's own time; and then secondly, an etic or outside judgment where we compare Tolkien's attitudes to those current in our own times. Then, we might also want to know, for each instance of perceived "racism," whether it was intentionally placed there by Tolkien, and for what purpose?

All that said, such discussions usually default to personal opinion only, and, LOL, that's OK by me. I'll try to stick to MY methodology, but no one else need feel so constrained! In many ways, I'd rather keep this an open board...

Message Edited by Dagor on 03-14-2008 11:14 PM

[TiggerBear]

Ok sorry to have been away, but weekends are hectic.

Lorien

TiggerBear, I missed this before. Somewhere we had a discussion about why "goblins" was used in TH and "orcs" in LOTR and were they the same thing. My interpretation of what you said above is that orcs were not the goblins of TH but a separate race of goblins, probably with different "enhanced" attributes, much in the same way the Uruk-hai were an "enhanced" species of orcs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was actually referencing (or at least trying to), the mythological creatures he was building his upon.

Trolls, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres are all previous frame work.
From these you receive Tolkien's formations
Trolls, orcs, Olog-Hai, and Uruk-Hai

Tolkien uses the word goblin as a race name not a creature type.

[TiggerBear]

Dagor
Actually I do disagree with your definition of racism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Racism as a simple belief that humanity can legitimately be subdivided into groups based upon assigned, shared-characteristics of genetic derivation (genotype); and/ or physical appearance, physical performance capacities, (phenotype). In some systems this will extend to assumed differential intellectual development, and even moral character. This form of racism sometimes masquerades under the supposedly less offensive name of "racialism."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Breaking humanity into genotypes and phenotypes isn't racism. It's just classification. Assumptions of intellectual levels and moral character based upon them is.

That's two different fish you have there.

But I do agree with you on 2 and 3.

[TiggerBear]

Also you might notice the difference in character of the elvin nations, between though that had visited the havens, those that had interbreeded with men, as well as those that mainly keep to them selves.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This will be long, filled with tons of *SPOILERS*, and I may decided to answer this in many post over several days. This subject is just that deep, ok.

The first division of elven groups

The Valar wishing companionship and to protect the fair elves. In the Undying lands beyond the west sea, the Valar created Eldamar.
The elves would one day build cities of great wealth and prosperity there.
But not all the elves wished to leave middle-earth.
Those that went west were called Eldar the people of the stars.
Those that were unwilling to leave were called Avari. Who supposedly dwindled because they
lived in the east where Melkor's power was greater.

So this gives us a West/Eldar East/Avari division.

[TiggerBear]

The journey of the western Eldar

Taking many years, across pathless lands, they broke into three groups
Vanyar lead by Ingwe
Noldor lead by Finwe
Teleri lead by Elwe Singollo

The Vanyar and the Noldor reached the western seas long before the Teleri.
The Teleri separated into various peoples and because they were the most numerous their journey west took the longest.

Many turned back from the journey west among the Teleri.
Becoming the Nandor, the LaiQuendi, the Sindar, and the Falathrim.
Even Elwe Singollo the high king himself became lost and turned back.

Those Teleri left westward traviling were lead by Olwe, Elwe brother. And eventually reached the west sea.

[Fanuidhol]

Tiggerbear wrote:

The first division of elven groups

The Valar wishing companionship and to protect the fair elves. In the Undying lands beyond the west sea, the Valar created Eldamar.
The elves would one day build cities of great wealth and prosperity there.
But not all the elves wished to leave middle-earth.
Those that went west were called Eldar the people of the stars.
Those that were unwilling to leave were called Avari. Who supposedly dwindled because they
lived in the east where Melkor's power was greater.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tiggerbear also wrote this:

The journey of the western Eldar

Taking many years, across pathless lands, they broke into three groups
Vanyar lead by Ingwe
Noldor lead by Finwe
Teleri lead by Elwe Singollo

The Vanyar and the Noldor reached the western seas long before the Teleri.
The Teleri separated into various peoples and because they were the most numerous their journey west took the longest.

Many turned back from the journey west among the Teleri.
Becoming the Nandor, the LaiQuendi, the Sindar, and the Falathrim.
Even Elwe Singollo the high king himself became lost and turned back.

Those Teleri left westward traviling were lead by Olwe, Elwe brother. And eventually reached the west sea.

Your answer to my question need not be this complicated.

Who are the Elves that "visited the havens"?  And I guess I need you to define what "havens" means to you.

Havens to me means a port where ships are anchored.  If you mean "lived at the Havens" then, they were mostly Teleri.  If you mean "went to the Havens" in LotR in order to leave Middle-earth, they were probably mostly Noldor.

***SPOILER***

But, Legolas and Celeborn were written as Sindarin which belong to the Teleri division as well as Cirdan. 

***END OF SPOILER*** 

Elves that "interbreeded with Men"?  Of the intermarriages that I know of -- the division above in your explanation does not help because the Elves involved were from various "races".

If you are speaking of Prince Imrahil and Men from Dol Amroth some late writings of Tolkien's (Unfinished Tales: History of Galadriel and Celeborn chapter), indicate that the Elf/Elves involved might have been Silvan/Sindar (so therefore Teleri) with possibly a touch of Noldor. 

"Those that kept mainly to themselves"? The Elves of Lorien pretty much kept to themselves in LotR, are those who you mean?  As Silvan Elves, they come under the division of Teleri...but ruled by someone that also has Noldor/Vanyar blood.

Fan

Message Edited by Fanuidhol on 03-17-2008 07:30 AM

[Fanuidhol]

I am going to make an attempt to explain the different types of Elves in a simple way.  I will give the proper names to the divisions in parentheses only to introduce them, just so you have seen the names.  Please don't let the names confuse you.  You don't have to remember them.  I am going to try to keep this explanation as much as I can relevant to LotR. 

I'm sorry to be stepping on Tiggerbear's toes, though.

Way back when, the Valar (the gods) wanted the Elves to come  "see the light" and be with them in Aman/Valinor.  It was a very long journey.

ELVES OF THE DARKNESS (Moriquendi)

Some Elves said "No, we like it here in the dark."  (Avari)  Some of these were captured and turned into Orcs.

All of the other Elves that at least attempted the trip are called Eldar.

Some Elves said "Sure, we'll take the trip."  But, for various reasons, they did not make it.  (2 out of 3 groups of Teleri, one of which is in the division of Elves of Darkness) 

The group of Teleri that stopped traveling the earliest, east of the Misty Mountains, are called Nandor.  Some of these traveled further west later on (Laiquendi/Green-elves of Ossiriand).

At least some of those Nandor that stayed put at the Misty Mountains are probably* Silvan Elves.  Most of the Elves found in Lorien and those of the "Woodland Realm" are mostly Silvan in origin.  Their rulers are not: Thranduil (father of Legolas), Galadriel and most likely Celeborn (his genealogy has had many changes, which I won't go into.)

ELVES OF THE TWILIGHT

The Sindar are the second group of Teleri that did not make it to "see the light".  Their history is complicated and best kept for our Silmarillion discussion. Some of these stayed on the Western shore (which shifted further East at the end of the First Age).  Cirdan (who we meet late in LotR) is their lord. (Falathrim)

Another group of Sindar settled further inland in Doriath.  It is here that the major trouble between Dwarves and Elves began.  Elrond (on his Mom's side), Celeborn and Thranduil come from this stock. 

ELVES OF THE LIGHT (Calaquendi)

Those Elves that made it to "see the light".

One group of Teleri made it and they got to keep the name Teleri, but, they liked living on the shore a bit away from "the light".  Galadriel's mother was from this branch.

There were Elves that said "We made it and we are staying as close to it as possible". (Vanyar)  Galadriel's paternal grandmother was from these people.

Then there were Elves that said "We saw the light, and it's been lovely, but now most of us are going back." (Noldor)  Galadriel's grandfather on her Dad's side, Elrond on his father's side, Glorfindel and many of not most of the Elves in Rivendell.  The Elves that used to live near Moria were Noldor in origin.  As a rule Noldoran (is that a word?) Elves got along with Dwarves.

The Noldor were known for their knowledge and craftsmanship.  The smiths that created the rings were from this stock. 

The Teleri loved the sea and ships.  They were great singers.

Fan

*the index to Slmarillion states that Slvan elves appear to be Nandor.

[Dagor]

Re: Tigger-bear's - "Breaking humanity into genotypes and phenotypes isn't racism. It's just classification. Assumptions of intellectual levels and moral character based upon them is."

Nope, here we will just have to disagree -- for anthropologists, sociologists, and biologists, racism begins simply with the feeling that a group can be subdivided. The apparent fact that no one was ever able to establish rational, objective standards for such division can be seen in the absolute confusion concerning the number of races of modern humanity, variously give as 3, 4, 5, 7. 11, 23, 47, etc. It become understood quite early in the 20th century that researchers were dividing into two great camps, those who accepted the validity of the simple concept of subdividing humanity, and those who reject the basic idea completely (there is only "ONE RACE, the Human Race" ). This is the original "racist vrs non-racist" separation. For real world humans, as science progressed, especially with DNA studies, the non-racists seem to be winning the fight scientifically. It was soon found that we all had common ancestors, probably no more than 3 - 7 thousand of them, about 72,000 years ago; and humans have developed very little genetic variabilty in that short span of time. So, the amount of genetic differnce between myself and any one from any of the other once recognized "races," is no more than the difference between myself and anyone of my own supposed "race."

So, racism begins with the simple acceptance that it is valid to separate people at all; the mere fact that someone recognizes 4, 7, 23, or how ever many distinct races, the mere act of saying that these divisions are valid, IS racism.

Classification is a loaded term as well, do you mean it taxonomically/ ie cladistics, or simply as a typology? If you take a course in scientific epistemology and methodology ( "how we know what we know" ) they will teach you that ALL typologies are basically subjective, they exist only as mental constructs in the minds of their creators, LOL.

So, does Tolkien use the Race Concept? Does he think it is valid to subdivde his sentient/ sapient creatures? Well, yes, but when Tolkien talks races, he gets even more confusing. In some cases his races might be considered separate species: Ents, talking Eagles, Trolls, Elves, Dwarves, Maiar, Valar. In other cases, Men, Elves, Orcs, Druedain, and Hobbits may still be classed as members of the same species because they all can presumably interbreed successfully (add Maiar here as well! Melian and Thingol). We have the half Man - half Elven Elrond and Elros; the Elf-Orc connection; the Druedain-Orc connection, and the successful interbreeding of Men and Orcs by Saruman. In this sense, Orcs, Elves, Men, Druedain and Hobbits might be considered classical "races" in the pre-DNA sense. In addition, JRRT has a tertiary form of race distinction when he further subdivides Men into Numenoreans, Dunlendings, Swertings, Easterlings, Rohirric/ Dales folk, Hobbits and refers to them as "races" in the classical sense. The mere fact that he does so, presents us, as I argue, with First Level Racism in his books. Nothing surprising about this, I hope, and I think, nothing "nasty" either, here we simply have his presentation of race typologies, fairly innocuous stuff -- so far.

What about Second Level Racism? This requires the next step -- the one where, Tigger-bear, you might feel comfortable starting an analysis of Racism -- the application of a hierarchy of superiority. Is there evidence that JRRT, or maybe even just the characters in his book, considered some of these "races" inherently superior, in some form or another? What does the classification scheme of "High, Middle, and Low" Men imply? How does Tolkien present his Elves: Vanyar vrs. Noldor, vrs Teleri; Avari and Dark Elves vrs Light Elves? Is there a system of "ranking?"

Message Edited by Dagor on 03-18-2008 12:51 AM

[oldBPLstackden…]

*****SPOILERS*****

I agree with TiggerBear --- this Thread should be considered a "Spoiler Thread" - not only because of the information and quotes to be included, but also just because the whole subject itself

( which seems to be leading into a discussion of possible Racism in Tolkien's works )

is a big "spoiler" ( in more ways than one ) ---

 There was an incident relayed through the television news recently ( I refuse to be specific ) - but my first reaction on seeing this atrocious act was: ( probably because I have been so involved in this Book Club, and had "Tolkien on the brain"  ) "What a very Orc-like thing to be doing!"

And the perpertrators of this act were American "White People" ---

But this is not to dismiss the whole subject in such a simplistic manner. Once again, I need to refer to my own personal experience, and delve into my own psyche ( groans from the audience )

as I feel that I can only broach this touchy subject in an honest way from my own personal vantage-points

( especially as it relates to my first readings of [ H ] and LOTR, in my childhood.

There's too much to be said on this subject in one posting, so I'm afraid I will have to return several times until I can "work this all out" ---

Before I even begin, however, I would like to say that Dagor has given an excellent overview of the whole subject of "Racism" to begin with - especially as it relates to "Where Tolkien was coming from"---

That is to say, how he was a "Product of his times" ( at least, as far as describing what really was the

"mind-set" of a great many people in his time ) ---

I just discovered ( looking at some local nespapers from 1927 ) that the "Eugenics" movement

( one of Adolf Hitler's favorites ) was a quite prevelant, even respected and accepted notion in this country at the  time. Of course, the idea was only to sterilize "Morons" ( and people who were thought to have

"Criminal Tendencies" or were "Mentally Unstable" - but all who were assumed to belong to an "inferior" stock - their negative "Traits" being caused not by Enviorment, but by some Genetic Defect -

certainly, as belonging to some lower "class" of people ) ---

And who knows, where this could have lead to,

  if the movement's proponents had been allowed to do all they had set out to do?

For after all, I'm sure at the back of many people's minds ( at the time ) they felt like they "just knew"

to which "Races" or Ethnicities the predominance of these "inferior-type people" belonged ---

( but never to their own particular "class" of people themselves, of course! )

Ardo Whortleberry

[lorien]

Ardo Wrote:
I agree with TiggerBear --- this Thread should be considered a "Spoiler Thread"
--------------------------------------------------------------

In a discussion of Tolkien, we can only try to keep the "Chapter" threads free of spoilers and avoid them there where possible but label them where not. We have to assume all "Topic" threads are spoiler threads and the reader beware. If we don't we will not be able to discuss anything freely!

Actually, as far as I can tell we have no first-time readers in the group. At least any that are posting or have acknowledged themselves. If there are a few, they have probably seen the movie so what is the point. We are just inhibiting our own discussions. IMHO

[oldBPLstackden…]

*** SPOILERS **** SPOILERS***** SPOILERS****

"Phase Two" ( of looking into possible "Racism" in Tolkien's works, via my own personal experience ) ---

I was very fortunate ( even "blessed" ) to grow up ( from the age of seven to the age of seventeen ) in a town that was very cosmopolitan in its make-up ( and much more so than many other towns in America - AT THE TIME - as times have changed, and now America tends to be more cosmopolitan in many places ) ---

In Elementary School, there were "your Average White Kids" - there were also Black kids- Asian kids - Jewish kids - Latino kids - even European kids ( whose parents were usually Visiting Professors ) ----

Indeed, one of my best friends at the time was Black ( to be more accurate and specific:

 African-Jamaican-American )  who had shared in my discovery of Tolkien's works at the time - we were both reading "The Hobbit" at about the same time ( and he had even informed me of the existence of LOTR before I ever came to read that book ) --- For him, and for one of his close friends ( who was also Black ) the referrals to "The Black Riders" in LOTR became a sort of "in-joke" between them - they just got a kick out of it - but this joke was in reference to their awareness of "The Race Issue"  --- this was a time when 

a lot of Black kids were becoming aware of their "Identity" ---

The "Black Pride" and "Afro-American" Movements was really in a kind of infancy, then ----

Of course "Black Riders" themselves don't tie-in with Racism itself ( per-se ) ---

I see them as one more example of the Age-Old ( in European Archetypes ) concept of "LIght and Darkness"

representing "Good and Evil" - The "Bright White Light" vanquishing the "Darkness" of Evil -- White for "Purity" and the "Life Force" --- Black for Corruption, Evil, and Death ---

And I think those particular "Ideals" were prevelant  ( especially in Northern European locales and in a relatively secluded place like the the Islands that became England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland ) before most of the people who lived in those places were even aware that "Black" People even existed in reality ---

Although, on down the line, proponents and purveyors of Racism  incorporated these concepts into

"proofs" of their theories - And the whole "White = Good, Better, Best" whereas "Black = Bad, Worse, Worst" also got tied up in a lot of people's minds with the whole subconcious "Racial" outlook ---

I'm still working out thoughts on all this - so I'll be back --- Ardo

[oldBPLstackden…]

Yes, lorien, I see your point. ---

There weren't even any "spoilers" present in my last posting ---

Incidentally, just by way of some silliness - when I was going on about the diverse "Racial Make-up" of my classmates in Elementary School - did anyone else hear that "Oscar Mayer Hot Dogs" tune running through their heads? ---

 " Black kids, White kids -

 kids that climb on rocks -

Asian kids, Jewish kids -

 Even kids with Chicken Pox! -

Love Hot Dogs.... etcetera " ?

No serious thoughts intended in that observation - only some silly stuff, really. --- Ardo

[oldBPLstackden…]

I feel like I am already treading water, wading into this subject, even though I have only waded a few feet into the shallow end of the pool ---

I'm tempted to just drop the whole subject now and forget all about it - but I guess I will go ahead and press on for a while ( and hope that I don't wind up drowning in it ) ---

You may have noticed I have not even tried to deal with what might be described as "Middle-earthian" "Racism" yet ( with all of Tolkien's "classifications" of peoples therein - as Dagor has pointed out ) ---

[ Although, the first time I remember meeting "The High Elves" in the story, my assumptions were that "High"  only referred to them being more wise and powerful and super-mystical than perhaps your more ordinary, run-of-the-mill elves -  but, I suppose that in itself might make them appear "better" than your average elf ]

Anyway, getting back to my friends in Elementary School, and in my first readings of LOTR ( perhaps even my very first reading ) I came across this one passage in TROTK ( during "The Battle Of Pellenor Fields" ):

[ "...and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues..." ]

I felt very embarrassed to be reading that ( embarrassed for JRRT, I guess ) and I wondered, what my friend

( who was Black ) might think when he came across that line in the story... It's a very small line, only part of a sentence, really, and an almost insignificant ( if not totally insignificant ) part of the story... but it still bothered me at the time... The description of these "black men" sounded too close to the typical European

Stereotype of African Black People ---

I guess I will continue to fumble about with this subject a bit more, but for now, I will only say

Good Afternoon To All ---

Ardo Whortleberry

Tolkien Reader 

[oldBPLstackden…]

To press on with these matters....

In my childhhood, I was truly unaware of any of the age-old stereotypes of the Jewish People.

I attended Public School, but sometimes, I went to my Catholic Catechism classes in my after-school hours in the then vacated classrooms of the Parochial School located at the Church we attended...

Whenever my mother and I were on our way down to these classes, we would pass by a corner One-Room Schoolhouse -which must have been some sort of "Sabbath-School" ( unless it was a everyday school for Jewish kids ) ...I only felt a curious fascination for the place. ---

If there was any intent on JRRT's part to portray The Dwarves as being "Jewish" in their nature - it sure went over my head at the time - in fact, it has never even occurred to me in any way, until I read that quote from JRRT's own lips ( from that interview ) ---

I have to wonder if the whole Jewish Stereotype / Anti-Semitic hang-up has not often been a great big bugaboo in the British psyche ( and often expressed in British Literature ) for some time.

It seems like the British often tend to accept the Negative Stereotypes of Jews as being simply a

"Fact Of Life" -and yet at the same time, wish not to be associated with actual outright hatred of the Jews.

We can start of with one of the most famous examples, Shakespeare's stereotype Jewish villain, Shylock, in "The Merchant Of Venice"... In Elizabethan England, Anti-Semitism was not only allowed, it was totally accepted as a fundamental belief. Yet, in the play itself, we have that famous speech by Shylock which goes: ( and I paraphrase ) "Is a Jew not every bit as Human as any of you 'Christian People' consider yourselves to be?" ---

( of course, one has to wonder if the audience in Shakespeares time really got "the

 message" there or not ) ---

Then, there is Charles Dickens, with his stereotype Jewish villain, Fagin, in "Oliver Twist" ---

I have had ( for quite some time ) a very old copy of Dickens' "A Child's History Of England" - in which, he decries ( with disgust and derision ) the Crusaders ( and their "hangers-on" ) "warming up" just before departing for their Crusade by committing murder and mayhem against the Jews that lived in England at the time.  ---

Then there is the case of T.S. Eliot ( the American turned "Oh So Very British" ) - some of whose poems have been shown to have been blantantly Anti-Semitic - And yet, his Jewish friends say they never felt he was truly Anti-Semitic, and it has come to light that Eliot was sponsoring Jewish refugees in their flight from Germany and Austria in the early 1940's ( to be resettled in Britain and America ) ---

It really feels like there is some kind of pattern here to British thought...Anti-Semitism seems to be allowed,

perhaps even encouraged - and yet gets stopped short of all-out hatred or the condoning of acts of

inhumanity against the Jewish people themselves --- 

Again, I am in no way any kind of expert in this field of study, no sociologist ( or anything of that nature ) -

these are simply my own personal observations. ---

Ardo Whortleberry

Tolkien Reader

[Dagor]

Very interesting material, Ardo, I'll digest this a while, then see if I have any questions. Thanks!