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BarbaraN
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TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1,2,3,4

TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1,2,3,4

1. The Departure of Boromir
2. The Riders of Rohan
3. The Uruk-hai
4. Treebeard

We are not due to read Book 3 in The Two Towers until May 5-11. I am putting the first week chapters up a bit early because some of you might want to read Chapter 1, The Departure of Boromir, and comment on it before watching or discussing the Movie, Fellowship of the Ring, since it ends on that chapter. Don't feel rushed. We don't officially (or unofficially) start this book until next week on May 5.
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

[ Edited ]
Chapter 1 is definitely a swing chapter. I've always felt it belong in the other book because it was the final step in the break up of the Fellowship. Initially, my feeling was that Tolkien put it here to end the last book in a cliff-hanger and to make sure people saw all three volumes as a continuous story. But now that I look at it anew, I see that the Fellowship actually ended with the departure of Frodo and Sam because now the Ring is gone.

TTT basically tells three stories: Frodo and Sam' story, which we will pick up in Book 4. And the story of the rest of the Fellowship that is now broken into two parts: 1) Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli and 2) Merry and Pippin. So Chapter 1 and 2 really form a pair for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli's story. So I think I will deal with these two chapters as the formation of the New Fellowship. If I recall correctly Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli stay together as a team for the rest of the story.

Message Edited by lorien on 05-03-2008 06:15 PM
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

Our once and future "kingly" Aragorn seems to have lost all confidence in himself in this chapter. He is constantly berating himself for failing to keep the group together and making what he perceives as wrong decisions. And then he adds another one. Hobbits are all over the place and missing, Frodo is missing and Aragorn is really pressed for time. So what does he do but run to the top of Amon hen to have a look around and not for finding anyone but for help in his decision-making. I think Frodo used up all the "visions" when he went up there. So there is nothing to see and it is a wasted effort!

I don't know why Tolkien sent him up there to begin with.
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1,2,3,4

For some reason Stryder reminds me a hero out of a Louis L'Amour novel. The guy who can track anyone through any terrain by the look of a bent leaf, who can listen on the ground and tell who is coming miles away--the silent loner cowboy type. Now I'm sure Tolkien wasn't reading Louis L'Amour since he didn't publish his first novel until around 1953 but I wonder if there was a common influence of some earlier American West writer.

Stryder strikes me more as the mythic American West hero than the Arthurian type and definitely not as a Norse hero type.
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

Re Lorien's: "I don't know why Tolkien sent him up there to begin with."

Tolkien tends to reuse material, and plans of action. In a real sense, Gandalf has to be gotten "rid" of for Bilbo to become self-reliant in The Hobbit, so G. is sent off to attend the White Council. In LotR, Frodo and the other hobbits need some scope for self-development as well, so Gandalf is trapped in Isengard as they make their way to Bree. Strider helps them to Rivendell, and then takes up Gandalf's protective-leadership role after Moria. But if Frodo and Sam are to mature as heroic characters in their own rights, they must not only "shed" Gandalf, but Strider too -- after all, they need to be responsible for their own courses of action. Ergo, Strider must be separated from Frodo in some "convincing" manner, and while Strider is on the hill, Frodo can "escape" Aragorn's tutilege, and become the leader of his own expedition/ quest. This "split" also freed Aragorn to act out his own quest as heir of Elendil, and leader of the troops of the West -- otherwise, he'd be stuck going through the motions in Mordor with Frodo...

Perhaps sensing something a bit lame in sending Aragorn up on the hill "to no good purpose," the movie version made this split a deliberate decision on Strider's part, and he allows Frodo to go his own way. But JRRT seems not to have liked/ considered that sort of option.
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

Concepts of Leadership

In such an absolute monarch world, Tolkien seems to lean more toward "leadership by mutual consent." The Fellowship was formed by no binding of anyone to the task. They could come or leave at their own prerogative. There was no real leader, except by default Gandalf with Aragorn assisting, and no one seems to question that. And now I think I might mixing the book up again with the movie, but when there is some unsureness, the decision is left to the Ringbearer. After Gandalf falls into the pit with the Balrog, Aragorn becomes the leader and this seems to be assumed by the group. But then Aragorn starts to lose confidence and the decision at the falls is left to the Ringbearer.

Now in Chapters 1 and 2 of Book 3 Aragorn is left with his group of two and a very wavering sense of personal capabilities. Legolas and Gimli always seem to have differences as to what they should do next. Gimli is surprisingly the most practical member of the group. But they leave the eventual decisions (more of a tie breaker) to Aragorn. Aragorn is kind of the assumed leader. He doesn't really show strong leadership though until there seems to be a serious confrontation between Legolas and Gimli and Eomer. Then (ta, tah!) Strider steps forth and becomes Aragorn again! Still, leadership in the group is more or less by mutual consent.
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

Northern Orcs

How and why did the Northern Orcs get on the west side of the river and joined the Uruk-hai?

Those of us who have read the book probably know who and what the "eagle" is but I am not sure. It has shown up twice already in Book 3 and I think back in Book 2. But I was wondering if some of these sightings could be something else since the party is not sure it is an eagle. It could be a Nazgul. I would think at this point Sauron would be wondering what is going on especially since he almost had a mind-lock on Frodo. This seems to be the "fly zone" between Mordor and Isengard.

Our mini-Fellowship has observed that the bodies they encounter in their pursuit of Merry and Pippin are northern orc faithful to Sauron while back at Rauros they noted the "new" larger orcs with the S and white hand that were Saruman's orcs. There has obviously been a disagreement among the two orc groups. Now Saruman has his own spies and wants the Ring for himself alone so he definitely sent his orcs and probably was not inclined to invite Sauron's orcs along. So I would think these orcs must have either accidentally joined the group or been sent by Sauron.

The orcs that attacked the Fellowship near the rapids were on the other side of the river. They were definitely Sauron's orcs. But there was no way for them to cross the river at this point. The elves killed all (or at least most) of the orcs that entered the Lorien area from Moria, which is virtually the only way south from the northern Misty Mountains. So where did these orcs come from and how did they get there so fast?
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oldBPLstackdenizen
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1,2,3,4

lorien ---
 
Dunno 'bout Louis Lamour influence --- but you might want to go back and check out your own posting
( Reply #14 in the "Mythic Origins" Thread ) ---
wherein you mention Shippey, "The Road To Middle-earth" - and where it sounds like Tolkien definitely might have had an appreciation for James Fennimore Cooper,
with his Natty Bumpo, The Deerslayer and so forth ---
definitely an early source for that concept of the "self reliant woodsman/tracker ear-to-the-ground and able to read the animal ( or human ) tracks and listen for noises and watch for signs etcetera etcetera" type of character...
Except that, even in the book, "Super Legolas" has it all over Aragorn in that department -
at least as far as being able to see so far with his "Super Elvish Eyesight" ---:smileyvery-happy:
Ardo 
"Middle-earth Is A State Of Mind"
^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

Ardo Whortleberry
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1,2,3,4

[ Edited ]
:smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:

See, I am stuffing too much into my poor brain. I thought I might have seen that somewhere. So I said that!!! I didn't even remember, thought I read that somewhere! I will have to look at Shippey!



oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:
lorien ---
Dunno 'bout Louis Lamour influence --- but you might want to go back and check out your own posting
( Reply #14 in the "Mythic Origins" Thread ) ---
wherein you mention Shippey, "The Road To Middle-earth" - and where it sounds like Tolkien definitely might have had an appreciation for James Fennimore Cooper,
with his Natty Bumpo, The Deerslayer and so forth ---
definitely an early source for that concept of the "self reliant woodsman/tracker ear-to-the-ground and able to read the animal ( or human ) tracks and listen for noises and watch for signs etcetera etcetera" type of character...
Except that, even in the book, "Super Legolas" has it all over Aragorn in that department -
at least as far as being able to see so far with his "Super Elvish Eyesight" ---:smileyvery-happy:
Ardo




Message Edited by lorien on 05-06-2008 10:14 AM
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1,2,3,4

I found my Mythis Origin post. Thanks Ardo. I'll repost it here and then see if Shippey had more to say on the subject:

-------------
Previous Post:

I was really surprise to read in Shippey's Appendix A of The Road to Middle-Earth that Tolkien was influenced by American literature and rural names. He felt that America was a bit of England without the corruption of "foreign myths".

Page 348
"'...family names like Barefoot and Boffin and Baggins and good country names like that'. Old country names, one might add: in Kentucky and its neighbours....In the same way Fenimore Cooper's hero, Natty Bumppo prides himself on his English ancestry,...The journey of the Fellowship from Lorien to Tol Brandir, with its canoes and portages, often recalls The Last of the Mohicans, and as the travellers move from forest to prairie, like the American pioneers, Aragon and Eomer for a moment preserve faint traces of 'the Deerslayer'..."




lorien wrote:
:smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:

See, I am stuffing too much into my poor brain. I thought I might have seen that somewhere; So I said that!!! I didn't even remember, thought I read that somewhere! I will have to look at Shippey!



oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:
lorien ---
Dunno 'bout Louis Lamour influence --- but you might want to go back and check out your own posting
( Reply #14 in the "Mythic Origins" Thread ) ---
wherein you mention Shippey, "The Road To Middle-earth" - and where it sounds like Tolkien definitely might have had an appreciation for James Fennimore Cooper,
with his Natty Bumpo, The Deerslayer and so forth ---
definitely an early source for that concept of the "self reliant woodsman/tracker ear-to-the-ground and able to read the animal ( or human ) tracks and listen for noises and watch for signs etcetera etcetera" type of character...
Except that, even in the book, "Super Legolas" has it all over Aragorn in that department -
at least as far as being able to see so far with his "Super Elvish Eyesight" ---:smileyvery-happy:
Ardo




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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

[ Edited ]

lorien wrote:
Northern Orcs

How and why did the Northern Orcs get on the west side of the river and joined the Uruk-hai?

Those of us who have read the book probably know who and what the "eagle" is but I am not sure. It has shown up twice already in Book 3 and I think back in Book 2. But I was wondering if some of these sightings could be something else since the party is not sure it is an eagle. It could be a Nazgul. I would think at this point Sauron would be wondering what is going on especially since he almost had a mind-lock on Frodo. This seems to be the "fly zone" between Mordor and Isengard.

Our mini-Fellowship has observed that the bodies they encounter in their pursuit of Merry and Pippin are northern orc faithful to Sauron while back at Rauros they noted the "new" larger orcs with the S and white hand that were Saruman's orcs. There has obviously been a disagreement among the two orc groups. Now Saruman has his own spies and wants the Ring for himself alone so he definitely sent his orcs and probably was not inclined to invite Sauron's orcs along. So I would think these orcs must have either accidentally joined the group or been sent by Sauron.

The orcs that attacked the Fellowship near the rapids were on the other side of the river. They were definitely Sauron's orcs. But there was no way for them to cross the river at this point. The elves killed all (or at least most) of the orcs that entered the Lorien area from Moria, which is virtually the only way south from the northern Misty Mountains. So where did these orcs come from and how did they get there so fast?




________________________

RE: "Northern Orcs"

Hmmm, from my reading of this chapter we have three separate Orc groups united at the time of the actual attack upon the Fellowship. An eastern group, who presumably had to cross the Great River somewhere (Grishnakh and Sauron's Orcs); a western group from Saruman's Isengard (Ugluk and the Uruk-hai); and a rag-tag gang from the northwest mines of Moria who seem to act independently of orders from Sauron or Saruman. It is my understanding that this "northern" group of Orcs was always west of the river? So, I assume, Lorien, you are referring to the eastern group here rather than the Moria Orcs of the north?

It is interesting that the three groups spoke different enough Orc-languages that they had to use their debased versions of Westron in order to communicate with one another (TT, "The Uruk-hai", p. 48). The slaughtered Orcs Aragorn finds were, I think, most likely members of Grishnakh's eastern gang, and not the Moria northerners, who had no reason to quarrel with the Isengard group. The northern Orcs had no interest in the captives as such, and were simply out for vengeance: " 'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'" (TT. p. 49) Apparently this northern group was a second Orc expedition sent out from Moria after the group originally pursuing the Fellowship was destroyed in the verges of Lothlorien by the Elves.

In the "time scheme" notes of the Marquette Manuscripts, JRRT laid out his design for this chapter, and here there is no definite statement I can yet find as to when and where the eastern Orcs of Grishnakh crossed the Great River. But it may have been at the shallows/ rapids near Sarn Gebir (sarn = ford). There a Nazgul was waiting for captured hobbits/ the Ring, or at least news of the fight's outcome. It is probable that Grishnakh and his gang entered the western lands via this ford. The "time scheme" notes also indicate that after the fight between Ugluk and Grishnakh, the eastern gang left on the evening of the 26th of February heading back to Sarn Gebir to report to the Nazgul that Ugluk and the Isengarders were taking the captive hobbits to Saruman. The Nazgul then ordered Grishnakh to rejoin the Uruk-hai of Saruman and try to get the hobbits/ Ring. It is unclear if the Ring was actually mentioned in these orders, but Grishnakh did seem to be searching for something specific and small in size when he took Merry and Pippin toward the woods. (see the synopsis of this chapter in Hammond and Scull, "Readers' Companion," pp.378-79).

The "time scheme" also details Gandalf's activity with the eagle Gwaihir: Feb. 17 Gwaihir finds Gandalf on the mountain pinnacle and flies him to Lorien. Feb. 20, Gandalf reaches Fangorn and sends Gwaihir on to spy out the countryside. So, we have an actual eagle flying all about the area at this time, and I think all the sightings we have refer to Gwaihir rather than a Nazgul. But, we do have a Nazgul stationed near the Sarn Gebir, I suppose it could have flown westward from time to time, but I cannot find any mention by JRRT to that effect. Apparently the "eagle" seen by Legolas on 23 Feb was definitely Gwaihir (see "Readers' Companion," p. 359), as Gandalf confirms when he meets Aragorn in Fangorn. But was the other sighting (on the 17th to the 20th? Feb) an eagle or a Nazgul? Gwaihir was in the air between the 17th and 20th, looking for, and then transporting Gandalf, so I always assumed that the first sighting also referred to him, but I don't think JRRT ever specifies this.

Message Edited by Dagor on 05-06-2008 11:38 AM
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2



lorien wrote:
Concepts of Leadership

In such an absolute monarch world, Tolkien seems to lean more toward "leadership by mutual consent." The Fellowship was formed by no binding of anyone to the task. They could come or leave at their own prerogative. There was no real leader, except by default Gandalf with Aragorn assisting, and no one seems to question that. And now I think I might mixing the book up again with the movie, but when there is some unsureness, the decision is left to the Ringbearer. After Gandalf falls into the pit with the Balrog, Aragorn becomes the leader and this seems to be assumed by the group. But then Aragorn starts to lose confidence and the decision at the falls is left to the Ringbearer.

Now in Chapters 1 and 2 of Book 3 Aragorn is left with his group of two and a very wavering sense of personal capabilities. Legolas and Gimli always seem to have differences as to what they should do next. Gimli is surprisingly the most practical member of the group. But they leave the eventual decisions (more of a tie breaker) to Aragorn. Aragorn is kind of the assumed leader. He doesn't really show strong leadership though until there seems to be a serious confrontation between Legolas and Gimli and Eomer. Then (ta, tah!) Strider steps forth and becomes Aragorn again! Still, leadership in the group is more or less by mutual consent.




I just want to mark this post for further discussion. The nature of kingship as used by Tolkien is a very complex situation, perhaps deserving a topic line of its own? If we are looking at an "absolute monarchy" model, the consensual nature of most of the Councils and the debates among the Rohirrim, and certainly Aragorn's interactions with the Fellowship may seem odd. Why doesn't Aragorn simply command obediance? In fact, I think JRRT never uses a model of Absolute Monarchy in any of his tales (the only "absolute" authoritarian structure is the rule of such characters as Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman). Rather, his various examples of "good" kingship are all based on the Anglo-Saxon form where the king was merely the first among the nobles, and not an absolute ruler.

For Aragorn himself, he was not yet a king, merely Chief of the Northern Dunedain, and the hobbits, while they might still honour the memory of the old kings, they were certainly not accustomed to obeying them (the last king, Arvedui had died in the 1970s III Age, giving the Shire over 1000 years of self-rule). The Shire tradition was a sort of egalitarian tribalism, with its own Shire officials being elected representatives. So the hobbits were used to discussing matters of import, and making decisions by consensus. In Rivendell, Aragorn would not be an authoritarian figure even though he had royal ancestors, so I assume he would have grown up in an atmosphere of debate and consensus rather than centralized command. Even Elrond seems never to have "ruled" his Elves by fiat, discussion/ consensus being the pattern of his leadership as well.

In this chapter, and again several times in later segments of the book, Aragorn has "fits of hesitation" and almost paralytic self-doubt. This quest is, for him, a period of maturation, of self-discovery, of growing into the role of King.
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

Just as a general, overall impression of "Kingship" ( and other "Leadership Roles" ) in [ H ] & LOTR - although kings and other figures of authority are given their due as if they are indeed the "Lawful" figures of authority - it also seems like they are expected to live up to their responsibilities to the be wise, fair and righteous in their treatment of their "people" ( whoever they might be ) and also to be able to protect and defend them, etcetera...
( This might have something to do with what Dagor refers to as that Anglo-Saxon concept of "the Good King" ) ---
 
>>>>>>>>>Various "SPOILERS" for both "The Hobbit" & LOTR ---<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
In [ H ] - we have the "Master of Lake Town" - who turns out to be selfish, greedy and corrupt - and who eventually "comes to a bad end" and is replaced by the new Master - "who is of a wiser kind" ---
 
Denethor is charged with the protection of his people - and with the role of leading them forward in the face of the great crisis -but he "fails the test" - he himself loses hope and sees only despair - and resorts to running away and hiding - and then to suicide ---   
 
Theoden is in the middle of "failing the test" - although not by his own will - once he is freed from the "bewitchment" - the spell of Saruman - he is able to regain his strength, his mind and his will, in order to do what he has to do to fufill his responsibilities....
 
Perhaps even Saruman could be added to this list. He is the lawful head of the White Concil - he is supposed to be "the wisest among the wise" - the one to whom the Protectors of the West should be able to come to for advice --- and yet, he too, falls down on the job - becomes corrupted and perverts his powers to evil purposes. So then - he must be "demoted" - and Gandalf then must take his place as the head of the Council ( he is no longer Gandalf the Grey, but assumes Saruman's "mantle" of "The White" ) - and Saruman becomes sort of "unemployed" - kicked out of the Wise Wizard business - and he will eventually come to his own "bad end" - in the end. ---
 
Ardo Whortleberry 
 
 
 
 
"Middle-earth Is A State Of Mind"
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Ardo Whortleberry
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

Dagor wrote:
Hmmm, from my reading of this chapter we have three separate Orc groups united at the time of the actual attack upon the Fellowship. An eastern group, who presumably had to cross the Great River somewhere (Grishnakh and Sauron's Orcs); a western group from Saruman's Isengard (Ugluk and the Uruk-hai); and a rag-tag gang from the northwest mines of Moria who seem to act independently of orders from Sauron or Saruman. It is my understanding that this "northern" group of Orcs was always west of the river? So, I assume, Lorien, you are referring to the eastern group here rather than the Moria Orcs of the north?
-----------------------------

I only finished chapter 2 last night and I already understand more about what you were saying here. I will probably understand more when I get through the next two chapters. But just from the mini-Fellowship observations there are indications of the orcs joined with the Uruk-hai of Sauruman in attacking the the Fellowship near Amon Hen because both types of bodies were found there. Obviously the Uruk-hai of Sauruman prevailed in the treatment of the hobbits and the direction to travel in.

At the beginning of the Uruk-Hai chapter (that I just started) there is a conversation among the orcs. One bunch wants to kill the hobbits and get out of there.

Then a deep growling voice says: 'Kill all but NOT the Halflings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That's my orders.' This is one of Sauruman's orcs--Ugluk.

Then when one of the orcs suggests searching the hobbits and seeing if there is something they could use, an evil voice says: 'I may have to report that. The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered; those are my orders.' He wants to take the hobbits to Lugburz. This is Grishnakh and he is obviously Sauron's Orc and suspicious of Saruman's intentions. His orcs crossed the river but joined with and followed Ugluk's leadership during the fight. According to Fonstad's Atlas Lugburz is another name for Barad-dur (also referred to as The Dark Tower).

One of the voices from the third group says: 'Not our orders!...We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.' So this third group is from Moria and out for vengeance only and are quite willing to find out what the hobbits might have of value and keep it for themselves.

Ugluk solves the impasse in orc style by beheading a few and Grishnakh gets away. I will probably have more straightened out later when I finish the chapter. I think I understand your explanation now, Dagor. I will also look at the Reader's Companion that I keep forgetting about.

I do find it strange that the orcs would seek vengeance. I didn't think there was much bonding or even fellowship among orcs. Vengeance is a very emotional thing and full of danger. Someone seeking vengeance is putting their own life on the line for an emotional satisfaction. These Northern orcs from Moria seem very human--they want to search the hobbits to see if there is something valuable they can put to their own use and they want vengeance. They also don't seem to have a strong allegiance to either Sauruman or Sauron.
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

I don't know why but Eomer reminds me a lot of Faramir. This may be another one of Tolkien's parallels. Each seems to be able to tell that the party they meet has more to tell and is on some sort of mission and helps them out. But there seems to be an alikeness in personalities as well. I suppose I will have more to say on this when I get to know each of them better. Just a strange feeling as I read the end of Chapter 2.
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 3 and 4

This is another 'thread" that keeps popping up and I think there is more than immediately apparent. People seem to dream more than I remembered and even more than I have noticed this time around since I forget to look out for it. The dreams often appear to have no apparent meaning but I think they do or Tolkien would not have put them in there. The beginning of Chapter 3 Pippin is dreaming.

"Pippin lay in a dark and troubled dream: it seemed that he could hear his own small voice echoing in the black tunnels, calling Frodo, Frodo! But instead of Frodo hundreds of hideous orc-faces grinned at him out of the shadows, hundreds of hideous arms grasped at him from every side. Where was Merry?...He woke."

--------------SPOILER---------------

It almost seems like he was in Sam's body in Shelob Lair and then in Frodo's body in Cirith Ungol and then back in his own in the present. I'm wondering if all these dreams are part of Tolkien's Time-travel thing. Got to reread that.
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 1 and 2

RE: Lorien's "I do find it strange that the orcs would seek vengeance. I didn't think there was much bonding or even fellowship among orcs. Vengeance is a very emotional thing and full of danger. Someone seeking vengeance is putting their own life on the line for an emotional satisfaction. These Northern orcs from Moria seem very human--they want to search the hobbits to see if there is something valuable they can put to their own use and they want vengeance. They also don't seem to have a strong allegiance to either Sauruman or Sauron."

EXCELLENT observations, Lorien!!!

Poor Old Tolkien. I think he originally wanted his Orcs to be nothing more than "sword fodder," absolute evil, icky creatures that were available for slaughter by his heroes, and no reader need feel sorry for the despicable creatures as they were mown down. But he could not help giving them human traits after all. Several times JRRT "slipped up," he made the Orcs independent creatures (as you have noted!), he gave then (by accident) a sort of social morality -- a code of behaviour that included our concepts of self-sacrifice for the good of the group, and honour. Three or four times JRRT, even in The Hobbit, mentions that Orcs will go to great lengths to avenge a fallen leader; hence after the Great Goblin is killed the Goblins and Wargs chase the Dwarves deep into the dangerous territory verging upon Beorn's holding. And here in LotR, the Moria Orcs chase long and far after the Fellowship. Like it or not, JRRT inadvertently "humanized" his Orcs by giving them such motivations.
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oldBPLstackdenizen
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 3 and 4

It does seem like Dreams are a recurring "motif" in Tolkien's stories. I still remember one of  the first ones
mentioned ( from "The Hobbit" ) - a dream for Bilbo:
 
[ "... But all night he dreamed of his own house and wandered in his sleep into all his different rooms looking for something that he could not find nor remember what it looked like..."  ] ( from Chapter VI ) 
 
I'm not sure if that particular dream has any foreshadowings or deeper, psychic meanings -
( unless it has something to do with the Ring - but I don't think JRRT was looking that far ahead yet, when [ H ] was first written )
- Anyway, ( at the time of the dream ) you are already aware that, on the journey, Bilbo is very often thinking about his comfortable home back in the Shire - and often wishing he was back there right now ( at many points in the story ) - But this also sounds like a very real, ordinary, everyday type dream to me -
I know I often have recurring dreams with recurring themes - I wonder if this "wandering around the house
( or the Study? ) looking for something but you can't remember what it was" might have been a recurring dream for Tolkien?
( it also sounds eerily very much like a "waking dream" for me lately - where I am often wandering witless from room to room - looking for something - but I have already forgotten what it was I was looking for - or going to do something - but having already forgotten what it was I had set out to do! ) ---
 
Considering that ***"SPOILER"*** ---
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
I had always assumed that Pippin was mostly merely remembering ( in his dream ) when the orcs had captured him and Merry before ( with all the orc faces grinning at him - and orc arms reaching out to grab him  - especially with there being "hundreds" of these orcs present in the dream ) - and that calling out for Frodo had more to do with "losing" Frodo from their presencet  - But, your "interpretation"  certainly seems quite plausible! Perhaps it is a case of things having a "double meaning" , again ---
Ardo
"Middle-earth Is A State Of Mind"
^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

Ardo Whortleberry
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 3 and 4

Pippin

Little Pippen turns out to be the hero of this chapter and finally shows his "true qualities." Merry and Pippin are now split off from the Fellowship in the hands of hundreds of orcs. Merry is hurt and unconscious. All along Pippin has been more of bother, has very little courage and confidence in himself, and has been mainly just "luggage". Here he is again "luggage" (carried by the orcs) but the lives of hobbits are now in Pippin's hands and depends on his wit and courage. He shows he has both.

When the orcs are fighting among themselves, Pippin has the courage to use a dead orc's blade to cut the ropes binding his hands and then making it look as if he is still tied. He showed extraordinary courage breaking away from the group so he could leave his footprints in the soft mud and then threw away his elf broach so that possibly it would be seen by Aragorn--if indeed they are following them. This could have cost him a lot of pain and maybe even death if the orcs had not been in a hurry and had to keep him unharmed. When Grishnakh carried off the hobbits during the attack, Pippin caught on that he wanted something and and tricked him into working out a deal to get it and so he got his and Merry's leg ropes cut so they would have a chance of getting away. At this point Pippin seems to be the responsible one for their safety and escape since Merry, the more natural leader, is not in any shape to do much.
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lorien
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Re: TTT: Book 3: Chapters 3 and 4

Orcs

I am finding the orcs can be interesting individuals and not just something to kill. In this chapter and I think later on, we actually get to meet some orcs personally. These orcs do have names, they do have have fear, greed, and desire for things. As we noted earlier the Moria orcs were only out for revenge, sport, and maybe to ge ahold of something useful to them. Grishnakh has shown some interesting facets to his personality. He was the leader of the Mordor orcs and pretty well stood by his orders to bring the hobbits back to Modor and Sauron. When threatened by the much larger and stronger Ugluk he wisely duck out of the situation but apparently continued to follow along and rejoined the main group when they were threatened. Then he carried off the hobbits in the middle of the battle. I'm not totally sure of his motivation here. To save them and fulfill his orders or for his own use.

Grishnakh obvious wants whatever the hobbit's have. We don't know if he knows it is the Ring or he just knows it is something that is very important. He does try to search the hobbits for it and Pippin guesses that he wants it for himself. Pippin fooled him by making sounds like Gollum. I'm not sure how Pippin knew about this or even Gollum. I think only Frodo and Sam of the hobbits knew about him, never mind what type of sound he made. And Grishnakh obvious had contact with Gollum if he recognized the sound. So I assume he was involved with Gollum's interrogation. My feeling is that Grishnakh was very faithful to his master and was just trying to find the Ring so it would not fall in Saruman's hands. He knew he was no match for opposing Ugluk and that the whole party of orcs was in danger of being killed. My feeling is that this orc felt true loyalty and was not driven by fear to do his fighting and evil deeds. He also was of high rank, intelligent, and cunning.
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