TTT: Book 3: Chapters 8-11

[BarbaraN]

May 19-25
TTT: Book 3: Chapters 8-11

8. The Road to Isengard
9. Flotsam and Jetsam
10. The Voice of Saruman
11. The Palantir

[lorien]

Caves

It is interesting that the poetical elf doesn't have a lot that seems inviting to say about the woods while the practical and supposedly unpoetical dwarf goes into beautiful and inspired description about caves. But then Gimli is a pretty surprising fellow.

Obviously he is describing what I would call a "show" cave, one of the gorgeous caves with the limestone formations. We have a lot of those in the United States but I didn't know if they have them in Great Britain. Remember Tolkien didn't travel much and his description sure sounds like an actual experience description. I was also surprised by the fact he gave so much print space and wonderful descriptive words to caves. He was obviously a lover of nature and living things but I never realized that he might find the same awe and appreciation for rocks.

[lorien]

Eowyn

Even though she was not brought up here, this chapter does reinforce my belief that she was not left ruling in Edoras because it was a "safe" place. One of the top priorities on Gandalf's to-do list was to gather up the scattered soldiers around Isengard and send them directly to Edoras. He was concerned that Warg riders and plunderers would be attacking it and they were not well defended.

[lorien]

Theoden

I will have to wait until I have watched the movie again but I think the character of Theoden (at least as far as I have gotten in the book) was better drawn in the movie than in the book. He started out seeming a bit interesting but as time has gone on he seems more like a country boy and his first visit to the big city. Most of his dialog is along the lines of "Oh goosh, look at all these wonders that I've never seen before." or "Wow Gandalf what sort of marvelous wonder have you done now." He is not ruling or leading, he is just following instructions, acting as kind of the symbol of the king, and makes the perfect straight man. None of the major decisions seem to be his. He is just following Gandalf's instruction or anyone else's suggestion.

Now things might be different later on, but up to this chapter he doesn't seem like a very significant character.

[lorien]

Maybe it is because Frodo is a very mature man of 50 and Merry and Pippin are quite young, but I see a significant difference in the way the two sets of hobbits handle dangerous situations. Merry and Pippin have actually been in more mortal peril than Frodo and Sam. They have been in eminent danger of being tortured and killed and Merry was in fact injured. But after they escaped from the orcs and again here after being in the midst of a great battle, they find time to relax, crack jokes, and attend to the niceties of life. On the other hand Frodo and Sam seriously and determinedly do their appointed task. I think from Merry and Pippin we see more of the resiliency of the hobbits. Frodo and Sam remind me more of the big people because their behavior is closer theirs while Merry and Pippin are...well, hobbits!

[lorien]

This chapter is pretty long and it is mainly narrative. It brings up up-to-date and what has happened to Merry and Pippin since the beginning of the book. The one piece we know nothing about is the battle of Isengard. Here we get the retelling of that event in quite a bit of detail. I think Tolkien was wise in taking this approach rather than just giving us another battle chapter.

---SPOILER POSSIBILITY---

Also the first time around, the reference to Sauruman's "trading arrangements" went over my head. Now I know what is being hinted at here and this makes the last part of the book seem more significant than just an afterthought "tag-on", which is the way I first viewed that section.

[lorien]

I believe in the book, this is the first time we actually meet Saruman. The movie has him so much of a major character by now. This conversation of Saruman reminds a bit of Gollum/Smeagle. Saruman has somewhat of a split personality as well -- a good and bad side. One reasonable and helpful and one mean and full of venom. However, Saruman is not psychologically split. He is just a typical politician putting his spin on things and telling people what they want to hear. He is not deluded in any way. But this "split" personality idea that Tolkien seems to use (and I am noticing it more and more in his characters) is apparent and out of Saruman's control when he slips into his evil thoughts and then reveals them.

I will be out of town for the next few days. I will try to check in and post from time to time if I can but I probably won't get much reading in. I'm falling a bit behind here, but we seem to have a bit of slack time so I should be able to catch up with the schedule after the holidays.

[oldBPLstackden…]

hi, lorien...

This chapter is actually one of my favorites. ( well, OK - they're all my favorites - but this is one where I often used to imagine the scene in terms of a great dramatic moment in my daydreamed cinematic scenarios ) ---

First, we have Saruman lulling the crowd with his mesmerizing voice - hypnotizing them -until they are at the point where they glance over at Gandalf and are thinking something like:

"Great Wizards like Gandalf and Saruman have minds that are beyond ours...We are like mere children in their presence...Gandalf will ascend up into the tower, and will talk over with Saruman all these things that are beyond our grasp -and leave us here sitting on the doorstep, to twiddle our thumbs and wait for them..."

Then, Gandalf breaks the spell - with laughter!

Then, the part where Saruman tries to leave - after all, he knows his last ploy has failed - but he still must play the part where he is "Finished with all these little people" --- But, Gandalf recalls him - and Saruman is helpless to resist the summons - and Gandalf then officially "Drums Him Out" of the Great Wizards Corps.---

Ardo

[oldBPLstackden…]

Please forgive me, but I just wanted to add this one little joke to my last post ---

After Gandalf dispells Saruman's hypnotic hold on the minds of the assembled with his laughter, he says:

"Saruman, you would have made a fantastic used-wagon salesman!" ---

Ardo  

[lorien]

---

oldBPLstackdenizen wrote:

Please forgive me, but I just wanted to add this one little joke to my last post ---

After Gandalf dispells Saruman's hypnotic hold on the minds of the assembled with his laughter, he says:

"Saruman, you would have made a fantastic used-wagon salesman!" ---

Ardo

---

Ardo, I missed that one. Good one!

[lorien]

I wonder why Gandalf took Pippin with him to Minas Tiras and not Merry? He is actually riding toward danger, so I don't know why he would bring Pippin at all. If it was because he was afraid that Pippin would be a target for Sauran because he was revealed in the Plantir, then Sauran could assume it was Merry just as easily. The only thing I can think of here is that Gandalf "knew" that each had a destiny to fulfill and each was in the proper place to do it.

[TiggerBear]

I wonder why Gandalf took Pippin with him to Minas Tiras and not Merry? He is actually riding toward danger, so I don't know why he would bring Pippin at all. If it was because he was afraid that Pippin would be a target for Sauran because he was revealed in the Plantir, then Sauran could assume it was Merry just as easily. The only thing I can think of here is that Gandalf "knew" that each had a destiny to fulfill and each was in the proper place to do it.
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Mere suposition, but Sauron could feel the Ring growing closer. He had already seen Pippen and might well assume he held the Ring. By bring Pippen closer to distract and misdirect Sauron, he could help Frodo slip under the radar,

[oldBPLstackden…]

Good Afternoon, lorien...

Concerning Pippin, The Palantir & Gandalf, etcetera ...

I think TiggerBear's supposition bears some weight... After all, there were several tactics about to be employed, all basically geared towards the goal of distracting Sauron's gaze and attention away from

 Barad-Dur & Mordor and focusing it elsewhere... Sauron's spies could report seeing Gandalf galloping towards Minith Tirith with a hobbit - and Sauron could surmise that perhaps that was where the Ring was headed... --- 

Also, Pippin would be safest under the watchful eye of Gandalf - especially since Pippin had just been

"exposed" to Sauron - and it would be dangerous to leave Pippin "On his own" ( so to speak ) - even if he was to remain in the relative safety of an armed camp or a fortress... ---

Finally, there is the matter of Pippin always managing to find ways to get into trouble -and I believe this is the excuse that Gandalf gives him, as to why he is taking him off to Minas Tirith - that it is in order to keep a parental watch over him... ---

Ardo

[oldBPLstackden…]

lorien --- just a few more thoughts as to "Why Pippin, and not Merry?"

It was Pippin who had just been "Traumatized" by his contact with Sauron - and he was the one who was going to need the kind of "extra protection" of the watchful eye of Gandalf - as well as the power that Gandalf possesses that might be needed to protect Pippin from harm...

 At this point, it looks like Gandalf is one of the few really great powers left around in Middle-earth that can wrestle with the might of Sauron &  although he cannot directly confront Sauron - he at least seems to be able to deflect the attacks of Sauron's lieutenants ...

Also, he can watch Pippin for any signs that he might have in some way been "affected" by his exposure to Sauron - although at the first "diagnosis", it appeared as though no real harm had been done...

Elrond appears to be more of a "healer" than Gandalf - but at this point - it would have been just about impossible to send Pippin back to Elrond for "therapy" -- Aragorn seems to have some healing abilities - but there wouldn't have been much point in sending Pippin off with him - considering where he was about to be headed... ---

And although "healing" is not generally considered to be one of Gandalf's main attributes, he can probably do something in the way of healing, if he needs to. Simply Gandalf's protective watching over Pippin after his ordeal could be a kind of therapy for Pippin, anyway...     

Ardo

[oldBPLstackden…]

Hi, lorien ---

I'm glad you enjoyed my joke --- I sort of realized ( after all that ) that I hadn't really been contributing all that much in the way of thoughts, ideas or questions pertaining to "The Voice Of Saruman" - I mostly just recounted a synopsis of the original story in a paraphrased format. ---

You make me sort of jealous, sometimes, as you are always coming up with so many great comments and observations ( at a fantastic rate ) about everything, as we go along the way here. ---

Ardo 

[oldBPLstackden…]

lorien ---

Actually, I don't think "The Voice Of Saruman" is the first time we meet Saruman in the book.

There is a long passage in "The Council Of Elrond" where Gandalf relates his visit to Orthanc ( where he had gone for Saruman's advice ) and how Saruman revealed his new true nature ( having gone over to

"the Bad Side" ) & then how Saruman tried to enlist Gandalf in his cause ( and openly expressed his desire to possess the Ring ) - and, after Gandalf's refusal to submit to his will, he imprisioned Gandalf in the Pinnacle of Orthanc. ---

Although the meeting is reported ( "second-hand" ) by Gandalf - there is so much dialogue and descriptiveness in that passage - that it almost could just as well have been related by the anonymous

( & omnipresent ) narrator...---

Very similar to a scene in the movie - although, in the movie, they leave out the part where Saruman shows off his new "Outfit of Many Colors" -- and that ( semi -"Star Wars" style ) "Battle of the Wizards" is added instead...  ---     

Ardo Whortleberry