TTT: Book 4: Chapters 1-3

[Dagor]

1. The Ring as Drug:

The idea that The Ring would function in a manner analogous to a highly addictive drug is, in my opinion, a stroke of absolute genius on JRRT's part. It allowed Tolkien to give his reader's a precise, and detailed mechanism by which The Ring seduces, corrupts, subdues, and finally devours its victims. Drug addictions in Great Britain, especially from the 1700's onward, became a crisis of epidemic proportions. In the 1890s, when cocaine was added to the opiates, the magazines and papers were publishing daily accounts of the terrors, destruction, and death resulting from the unregulated use of these substances. JRRT grew up in this milieu, and his own experiences in the infirmaries of WW I would have exposed him to many more cases of accidental addiction and the sometimes brutal methods of withdrawal used in that era -- often "cold-turkey" denial of drugs was used with predictably horrific results.

Poor old Gollum. When Bilbo took his Ring, Smeagol-Gollum was effectively pushed into a "cold-turkey" withdrawal episode that must have been shattering. How did the creature survive?

2. This is interesting, Ardo, yes, how might the ur-typische, "proto-hobbits" of the Gladden Fields have differed from the later, settled hobbit groups of the Shire? Do we have some sort of "pejorative racism/ classism" at work in Tolkien's assignment of Smeagol to the least imposing of the hobbit tribes? The Stoors are characterized as being "heavy" of build, a bit "darker" than other hobbits, having "primitive" facial hair growth, and being the basic labouring, "blue-collar" types of the hobbit world. They also engaged in boating/ swimming -- activities the "proper" upper class, better-bred hobbits (Fallowhides and Haarfoots) seem to have considered with some dismay and disdain. Were the proto-Stoors, more "primitive," and therefore more likely to engage in violent acts than other hobbits? Hmmm, food for thought.

3. Re Ardo's "... although addicts often commit evil acts - they themselves are not necessarily evil themselves..."

Yes, any "judgment" of S-G must consider just how much volitional control he had over his own mind after his introduction to The Ring. Here, I like Tiggerbear's thought that there must have been something pre-existent in S-G's character that led him to be more easily influenced by The Ring -- its Great Evil calling to his own like evil? His resultant madness may indeed have been a sort of punishment from the gods, as he was being shaped by destiny to play a specific role in the Ring Quest. SPOILER? -- Gollum was the back-up mechanism for the Ring's destruction, should its power prove, in the end, to be irresistible even for a noble-minded hobbit like Frodo. Here, Lorien's idea that Gollum might have some Good in his nature at the very end of the quest deserves careful consideration. Was Gollum, at the Cracks of Doom, just a tool of destiny, a drug-crazed fiend who had finally re-secured access to his dope? Or did he in some way consider his own action as having a salvific function for Frodo? My own, current feeling here, is that he was just acting selfishly when he took the Ring, and had no intention of destroying it -- but maybe there is more to this scene than I yet see?

[oldBPLstackden…]

TiggerBear --- Adding on to your "Odd Thought" ---

Besides the possibility of "Mad Goblin Disease" - there is the compounded effects of a generally  unbalanced diet over a hyper-extended period of  time, as well...

Sufficient protien, it can be assumed, but a decided lack of fruits and vegetables.

I'm not sure if there is an abundance of Vitamin D in fish or not -

but Gollum certainly wasn't getting any Vitamin D from exposure to sunlight -

In general, a complete lack of sunlight, fresh air and "outside" smells, sounds, sights and warmth/cold...

Besides having mental problems already before he arrived at his underground grotto -

think of all those long years spent in the dark -

Isn't there often a problem for people who live in places where there is practically continuous darkness throughout the wintertime there - suffering from bouts of depression brought on by the almost total lack of daylight - this period of the year accompanied by an upsurge in suicides in those places?

( really bad "Winter Blues" ) ---

Gollum would have had that, on top of his other problems, as well, one might assume...---

A.W.     

[oldBPLstackden…]

Good Evening, lorien ---

I agree with just about everything you put forth in your earlier post herein, pondering as to whether Gollum was "Good" or "Bad" - and you put everything down quite eloquently...

But, I'm not so sure about the Elves mistreating Gollum ( during his captivity ) - and this causing Gollum's

recoiling at those Elvish objects with their Elvish aura -

( the rope, the cloak, the lembas leaf ) ---

I think there is something else at play here -and I don't think his reaction comes necessarily from any

memory of mistreatment by the elves ---

Perhaps something to do with Gollum's acquired affinity for darkness over light - his need to "cling to" the dark - whereas the Elvish objects are imbued with their "Elvish Magic" - which in part is derived from the power of light ( at least of starlight ) ---

Perhaps from his long association with orcs ( although he never had any orc friends -just being around them much of the time - perhaps the "orc-mentality" could have "rubbed-off" somewhat onto his psyche ) - 

I think orcs would have this same kind of reaction to these objects...

Perhaps there still remained some kind of "residue" from the Ring ( after his posessing it for so many years ) - that of the Ring's dark, evil  - this "residue" being the complete antithesis to the inherent power of the Elvish objects...

Concerning the Elvish rope - it could be that Gollum had also developed a severe dread of any form of constraint ( but, again, perhaps the presence of the Elvish "magic" in the rope might have proved more

"painful" to him, rather than any rememberance of any mistreatment he may have suffered at the hands of the Wood-Elves...) ---

A. W.  

[lorien]

I'm still back in chapter 2 but "speeding" right along! And I am paying particular attention to Gollum/Smeagle and taking the "Smeagle good" side.

Smeagle had been cast out of his own family, lived alone in darkness with nothing but a Ring for a companion, and was mistreated by many people. The elves are still up in the air but everyone else seems to have considered him half animal and a repulsive one at that.

Now Frodo comes along and treats him kindly, trusts him, frees him from the dreaded rope, and for the first time in 500 years Smeagle has companionship and a purpose in life. I think at this point Gollum, at least temporarily, is submerged and there is Good Smeagle, the Dr. Jekyll of the Jekyll/Hyde team.

At the beginning of Chapter 2, we seem to have a perfectly sane, lucid and friendly Smeagle. He is helpful and has no intention of trying to escape (and he certainly could). He even uses the name Smeagle and "I'. He is actually happy, probably for the first time in 500 years.

They come down to a stream and Smeagle splashes along in the stream and even croaks a song:

The cold hard lands
they bites our hands,
they gnaws our feet.
The rocks and stones
are like old bones
all bare of meat.
But stream and pool
is wet and cool:
so nice to feet!
And now we wish---

'Ha! ha! What does we wish?'
--------------

That is a very happy Smeagle.

I think he also misses some games and mental challenge. Smeagle is smart and, as I might point out later, thinks the hobbits need a good deal of looking after in the wild. I also think he really appreciated the mental riddle game with Bilbo because he remembers it with a pleasant memory now. He quotes the riddle proposed to Bilbo many long years ago (on page 123 of the Annotated Hobbit).

Alive without breath;
as cold as death;
never thirsty, ever drinking;
clad in mail, never clinking...

Of course the answer to this riddle was fish and that is what he wants right now. In fact later on, we will find out that is all he really wants in the whole world is fish three times a day.

As for my point about him thinking the hobbits need looking after, Frodo remarks that he is glad to see the sun and Smeagle points out:

'You are not wise to be glad of the Yellow Face...It shows you up...Orcs and nasty things are about. They can see a long way....'

Message Edited by lorien on 06-02-2008 10:42 PM

[lorien]

Sam

Tolkien considered Sam the hero of The Ring. He certainly was important as a companion to Frodo. He is marvelously consistent throughout the books. Tolkien knew what he wanted in the character. He was devoted and faithful to Frodo beyond what I would consider possible. I always wonder how he kept up carrying more than his fair share of the bundles with all the pots and pans he hardly ever used.

He was always the more cautious one of the group. He didn't trust Strider way back at the Prancing Pony and even later on after Frodo was wounded. yet he was wrong about Strider.

I think he should be rightfully suspicious of Gollum/Smeagol. But my feeling is that it goes beyond that. His suspicion is fueled by his dislike of Gollum/Smeagol as well, in fact I would say he has a hatred of him. He doesn't give Smeagol a bit of slack or make the least effort to at least treat him fairly and with respect. He is always putting Smeagol down and Smeagol is still a bit unstable. Smeagol isn't dumb and knows Sam hates him. Frodo, on the other hand, has struck a good balance. He isn't fooled, he is firm with Smeagol but he is willing to treat him kindly and with respect, and give him credit for the good he does and the help he gives. This makes a big difference and, I might add, an immediate difference, to the much persecuted and mistreated Smeagol.

I wonder if things might have been a bit different if Sam could have just given in a bit and shown him some gratitude or consideration. Maybe Smeagol could have made it and conquered the Gollum in him.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Gollum/Smeagol does become more and more of a sympathetic character as we go along...

There is a lot of pathos and  humor surrounding him.

Sam does tend to be rather overprotective of his "Master" -

and his revulsion towards Gollum makes it hard for Sam to "relate" towards Gollum in any way...

Of course, Gollum is the only guide available to them in their situation - without him the hobbits would truly be lost, wandering rather blindly and unsuspectingly in the wilderness with only a very vague plan of objectives...

^^^^^^^^^SPOILERS^^^^^^^SPOILERS^^^^^^^^SPOILERS^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is another conundrum here with Sam and his unwillingness to accept Gollum and treat him more of a measure of kindness and humanity...

If things had been different - and Smeagol had "conquered" Gollum -

( and then, Gollum would have been a "better person" for it )

- but then would have Gollum/Smeagol been able to fulfill his role ( or his "destiny" ) in the course of events?

Inotherwords, without Gollum's treachery - would the quest have all come to naught in the end?

Take, for instance, Gollum's treachery in the pass and the Stairs of Cirith Ungol...

I wonder how else Frodo and Sam might have been able to get over the mountains there

( to "get over the top" ) ....

Incidentally, this seems like yet one more case of having to go "through" the mountains ( and through a long, dark tunnel ) in order to get "over" them...

( although this tunnel is much closer to the tops of the mountains than the previous tunnels - it still winds up being the only way to wind up on "the other side" ) ---

And of course, there is that other bit of treachery at the end, upon which the entire fate of the quest hinges...    

A.W.

[lorien]

^^^^^^^^^SPOILERS^^^^^^^SPOILERS^^^^^^^^SPOILERS^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is another conundrum here with Sam and his unwillingness to accept Gollum and treat him more of a measure of kindness and humanity...
If things had been different - and Smeagol had "conquered" Gollum -
( and then, Gollum would have been a "better person" for it )
- but then would have Gollum/Smeagol been able to fulfill his role ( or his "destiny" ) in the course of events?
Inotherwords, without Gollum's treachery - would the quest have all come to naught in the end?
Take, for instance, Gollum's treachery in the pass and the Stairs of Cirith Ungol...
I wonder how else Frodo and Sam might have been able to get over the mountains there
( to "get over the top" ) ....
Incidentally, this seems like yet one more case of having to go "through" the mountains ( and through a long, dark tunnel ) in order to get "over" them...
( although this tunnel is much closer to the tops of the mountains than the previous tunnels - it still winds up being the only way to wind up on "the other side" ) ---
And of course, there is that other bit of treachery at the end, upon which the entire fate of the quest hinges...

A.W.

-------------------------

Ah! But I haven't given up the idea that in that final moment the good Smeagol came through and he sacrificed himself (like Brunhilde) to destroy the Ring. But I will have to wait until I get closer and analyze Gollum/Smeagle's character more. There is also a lot coming up in the next set of chapters--which I haven't gotten to yet. We need a bit of speculation here to broaden our discussions. I still have a long list to whittle down as to who is the "Hero of The Ring."

There is also the question that without Frodo's pity for Smeagol, and without Smeagol's devotion to Frodo and his knowledge of the area, would they have ever gotten to Mount Doom?

[lorien]

Although Tolkien is writing a fantasy he tends to base everything, especially in nature, on real world. Which got me thinking about the marsh lights (candles). I was wondering if these lights could be a natural phenomenon? I don't really know. Could they be something volcanic, escaping gas that had ignited, fireflies of some sort, etc? Is there something like swamp gas? Or maybe some glowing plankton in the water. I have no idea.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Good Afternoon, lorien...

{  MORE STUFF IN THE ******SPOILERS***** VEIN  }

No, there is no question that, without Frodo's having shown pity and mercy towards Gollum, Frodo and Sam would never have been able to fulfill their quest.

( as I mentioned before, without Gollum as a guide, they would have simply been wandering - lost and rather naive in a hostile wilderness with no real clue as to how to get where they were going ) ---

I was only suggesting that, perhaps without Gollum's treachery ( inspired and aggravated, at least in part, by the distrust and hatred of Sam ) things never would have worked out the way they were supposed to either...

And, it was after Gollum's ( and I think maybe it was his first - after having been really quite faithful and helpful up to that point ) real act of treachery ( leading Frodo and Sam into Shelob's Lair ) - that Frodo and Sam were somehow able to get "through to the other side" and wind up on the inside of Mordor...

Where, incidentally, they are no longer needing Gollum as a guide - with Mount Doom in sight, they manage to stumble towards their objective, by means of sheer luck and inventiveness on their part - ( and also only because all of Mordor is being "emptied out" at the moment  ) ---

And Gollum really plays no more role in their "search" until the very end - when he catches up with them at  Mount Doom...

( where there is one more act of treachery - the results of which upon which the fate of Middle-earth is determined )

My feeling is still that, if Gollum did "step up to the plate" in order to sacrifice himself, his decision would have had to have been made on the deepest, most subconscious level...   

A.W.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Hi Again, lorien ---

I've realized that all I was trying to say, after all, in my last post ( in my usual Overwordy way ) was simply that there is a dichotomy/conundrum there with Frodo's kindness towards Gollum and Sam's unkindness towards Gollum - and that perhaps both attitudes had to exist side by side in order for things to work out the way they were supposed to. ---

Perhaps, if JRRT had decided to "show more kindness" ( all around ) towards Gollum - it could have somehow worked out with our trio of "heroes" going all the way to Mount Doom together without the kind of ugly incidents that wound up occuring along the way ( in the story as it came to be )...

There is less drama and conflict that way, however -

That sounds it could have all turned out more like something similar to JRRT's original version of the story of Bilbo meeting up with Gollum and how Bilbo obtained the Ring from him.

It all seems a little too simplistic and "uneventful" maybe - and leaves a lot of "space" inbetween the time

Frodo and Sam meet up with Gollum and up to the point they reach the end of their journey -

to be somehow filled in with some kind of "Adventures?" --- 

Just a thought. ---

A.W.

[TiggerBear]

Odd thought running on:

The more thought and research I've given this, the more I think Tolkien did not fully think out Gollum's life underground.

Gollum's diet
Fish- protein, omega fatty acids, some B vitamins, calcium
Goblins- protein, iron, calcium, some fat, possible copper
Mushrooms- thiamine, riboflavin

So a glaring lack of Vitamin C, Gollum would have been suffering from Scurvy. Something as an Englishman Tolkien would has been well versed in the symptoms and effects.
A lack of Vitamin K and A, night blindness and blindness.
And if you look up the effects of Kuru, Gollum's physical description happen to fit. Bloated belly with a withering of limbs, tooth loss, terrible body odor, and a grayish pallor with high sensitivity to sunlight.

Just a lot of contradictions. Gollum would have not only have been insane, but unable to see, or move.

[TiggerBear]

Lorien

Swamp gas a light has the appearance of a Willow o Wisp.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Hi TiggerBear - Concerning Further "Odd Thoughts" ---

I don't know if Tolkien was taking into account all these effects from the deficiencies of vitamins and other factors involved with Gollum's "underground lifestyle" or not...

My guess is that he may have not even been concerned with those particular details...

 But then, those factors do not include the power of the Ring...

By the posession of the Ring, Gollum's life was extended way beyond the limits of a normal lifetime -

 and must have aided in "sustaining" Gollum ( in spite of all the handicaps of his lifestyle )...

I think maybe Tolkien was mainly just thinking in terms of how Gollum had evolved and adapted to the underground conditions he survived under over centuries of time...

( when he was considering his creation of the Gollum character ) ---

Also, some of those physical characteristics that you mentioned - I can't be positive yet - but they sound like they could have mainly been derived from the movie version conception of the Gollum character - I'm not entirely sure if all of those details were explicit in the original text... ---

Ardo

[lorien]

Oh, TiggerBear. You really had me laughing! Only you would have considered Gollum's unbalance diet! Well, there was nothing wrong with his night vision--it was exceptional. Seems his teeth were pretty good as well--at least Sam can vouch for that. I don't know very much about diets but I did think about people surviving through long winters in northern lands--like where there is nothing but snow. Primates and a few other animals seem to be the few animals that can't manufacture their own vitamin C. Maybe Gollum got it from some animal source. Maybe Orc liver is rich in vitamin C.

I found this in Wikpedia on animal sources of Vitamin C:

Animal sources

Goats, like almost all animals, make their own vitamin C. An adult goat will manufacture more than 13,000 mg of vitamin C per day in normal health and levels many fold higher when faced with stress.

The overwhelming majority of species of animals and plants synthesise their own vitamin C, making some, but not all, animal products, sources of dietary vitamin C.

Vitamin C is most present in the liver and least present in the muscle. Since muscle provides the majority of meat consumed in the western human diet, animal products are not a reliable source of the vitamin. Vitamin C is present in mother's milk and, in lower amounts, in raw cow's milk, with pasteurized milk containing only trace amounts.[101] All excess Vitamin C is disposed of through the urinary system.

The following table shows the relative abundance of vitamin C in various foods of animal origin, given in milligram of vitamin C per 100 grams of food:
Food Amount
(mg / 100g)
Calf liver (raw) 36
Beef liver (raw) 31
Oysters (raw) 30
Cod roe (fried) 26
Pork liver (raw) 23
Lamb brain (boiled) 17
Chicken liver (fried) 13
Lamb liver (fried) 12
Lamb heart (roast) 11
Food Amount
(mg / 100g)
Lamb tongue (stewed) 6
Human milk (fresh) 4
Goat milk (fresh) 2
Cow milk (fresh) 2

---

TiggerBear wrote:
Odd thought running on:

The more thought and research I've given this, the more I think Tolkien did not fully think out Gollum's life underground.

Gollum's diet
Fish- protein, omega fatty acids, some B vitamins, calcium
Goblins- protein, iron, calcium, some fat, possible copper
Mushrooms- thiamine, riboflavin

So a glaring lack of Vitamin C, Gollum would have been suffering from Scurvy. Something as an Englishman Tolkien would has been well versed in the symptoms and effects.
A lack of Vitamin K and A, night blindness and blindness.
And if you look up the effects of Kuru, Gollum's physical description happen to fit. Bloated belly with a withering of limbs, tooth loss, terrible body odor, and a grayish pallor with high sensitivity to sunlight.

Just a lot of contradictions. Gollum would have not only have been insane, but unable to see, or move.

---

[lorien]

It is obviously impossible to get into Mordor through the Black Gate. Smeagol makes his alternate suggestion to go through the cave. In spite of the earlier conversation with Gollum that was overheard by Sam, I do think Smeagol is in charge here and making a sincere suggestion. In fact the only possible way into Mordor is via the unknown staircase through the cave. Smeagol did make it out and did manage to deal with Shelob somehow. Maybe he knows a way through, maybe a small passage that only hobbit-sized people can fit through and not giant spiders. I think at this point, and it is also Frodo judgment, that it is a good option. He does make it clear that maybe the passage is no longer there but there is no other way. He does fail to mention Shelob and that is his only deception. Even if they had known about her, there is no other choice--they just would have been better prepared for it. Getting past one giant spider, especially since Gollum had already done it, was a far higher probability than trying to slip through the Black Gate.

[TiggerBear]

Lorien
Swamp gas a light has the appearance of a Willow o Wisp.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hey does any one have experience with a peat swamp?

[TiggerBear]

The following table shows the relative abundance of vitamin C in various foods of animal origin, given in milligram of vitamin C per 100 grams of food:
Food Amount
(mg / 100g)
Calf liver (raw) 36
Beef liver (raw) 31
Oysters (raw) 30
Cod roe (fried) 26
Pork liver (raw) 23
Lamb brain (boiled) 17
Chicken liver (fried) 13
Lamb liver (fried) 12
Lamb heart (roast) 11
Food Amount
(mg / 100g)
Lamb tongue (stewed) 6
Human milk (fresh) 4
Goat milk (fresh) 2
Cow milk (fresh) 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Now I would have never thought about Vit C in meat sources.

[lorien]

---

TiggerBear wrote:
The following table shows the relative abundance of vitamin C in various foods of animal origin, given in milligram of vitamin C per 100 grams of food:
Food Amount
(mg / 100g)
Calf liver (raw) 36
Beef liver (raw) 31
Oysters (raw) 30
Cod roe (fried) 26
Pork liver (raw) 23
Lamb brain (boiled) 17
Chicken liver (fried) 13
Lamb liver (fried) 12
Lamb heart (roast) 11
Food Amount
(mg / 100g)
Lamb tongue (stewed) 6
Human milk (fresh) 4
Goat milk (fresh) 2
Cow milk (fresh) 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Now I would have never thought about Vit C in meat sources.

---

Raw livers seem to be the best sources. I don't know where Gollum might have gotten a good supply of livers but raw certainly would have met with his approval. His preference seems to be for fish. Maybe the roe of the particular fish he ate was rich in vitamin C.

Well, now I know a lot more about vitamin C. This could be handy some day if I ever find myself somewhere with no fruits or vegetables -- or vitamin pills.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Just one more brief thought on the "Gollum - Good or Evil" line of discussion...

At the beginning of "The Taming Of Smeagol", when Frodo and Sam are still struggling just to get down from the Emyn Muil - Frodo says something like:

"I need something to show me the way to my destination ( to guide me ) - but whether this something is going to come from Good or Evil, I don't know."

Sounds like yet another "foreshadowing"...

And it seems to me like we wind up with something that has both the elements of Good and Evil mixed up within itself [ Gollum/Smeagol ] - something that is neither totally good or totally evil - and even which

[ at one time ] was basically good, but then became corrupted and then enslaved by evil...

Ardo