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TTT: Book 4: Chapters 1-3
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05-25-2008 04:32 PM
We left Frodo and Sam back in Book 2 of the Fellowship of the Ring on their way to Mordor with the Ring. In Book 4 we now find out how things are going with them and to meet Gollum, a most interesting character.
May 26-June 1
Chapters 1-3
1. The Taming of Smeagol
2. The Passage of the Marshes
3. The Black Gate is Closed
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-27-2008 04:15 PM
Gollum is considered evil by most of the characters but I wonder if he is really bad. He has shown more fortitude than anyone else. He inherited the Ring after it had lay dormant for 3,000 years. My feeling is the Ring then was like a rattlesnake, particularly venomous after a winter hibernation. That was the only time Gollum really committed a crime--when he killed Deagol. Gollum could have been totally under the domination of a very powerful Ring then that wanted to get home.
Then he was mistreated and rejected by his family. Then he spent 500 years living with the Ring in dark cave. He never saw the light of day and only had the Ring for a companion during that time--yet he survived. His eating choices are considered particularly disgusting but he had little choice, he had to survive, the Ring would not let him do otherwise. He had to forage for food where he could like fish, grubs and an occasional orc. He could not grow vegetables or grow wheat and bake bread--no light. He could not cook his food -- no fire or fuel. I think eating orcs was a desperate effort. Even Shelob didn't particularly like orc. Eventually, he would come to like these things in preference over his old food.
Still, after all these years of deprivation and living alone in the dark with only The Ring for a companion, he still maintained some sort of humanity. He played the Riddle Game fairly with Bilbo. And then he lost his only companion to Bilbo--the Ring. It must have been devastatingly lonely for him.
Then he was captured and tortured by Sauran, then captured and not well treated by Aragorn, and then kept by the elves. From his reaction to anything elf (the rope, the cloak, even the leaf of the limbas) as something terribly painful, leads me to believe he was not that well treated by them either.
I don't think there are too many who could keep their sanity and some humanity through all that. And his only crime was actually that one murder. I don't think orcs count. Orcs are slaughtered and no prisoners taken in any of the three battles we have encountered so far--when the riders of Rohan come upon the band, at Helms Deep and Isengard. Men are spared but orcs are not.
So I wonder--how is Gollum so evil?
I don't want to get ahead right now but he does continue to show more humanity. But here when we first meet Gollum, what has he really done that is so bad?
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-27-2008 05:20 PM
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Well for the longest time I have considered Gollum to be mad.
Now this begs the question of whether we consider the insane responsible for their actions. Historically madness was considered a punishment by god, and therefor if the person wasn't evil they would not be mad. The recent enlightenment of madness as disease not divine retribution, takes a different perspective. The current legal instance is that the mad are not responsible, however in extreme murderous cases we do hold them responsible.(shrug)
So what side of the line do you fall upon? Are the insane responsible for their actions after the onset of insanity?
Now I think Smeagol, before he ever touched the RING was borderline unstable. All it took to shove him into the realm of insanity was his grasping the RING. I can't hold him to blame for anything he did subsequently. Poor guy touched a time bomb.
A couple of pennies worth.
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-27-2008 10:07 PM
TiggerBear wrote:
Is Smeagol/Gollum Bad?
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Well for the longest time I have considered Gollum to be mad.
Now this begs the question of whether we consider the insane responsible for their actions. Historically madness was considered a punishment by god, and therefor if the person wasn't evil they would not be mad. The recent enlightenment of madness as disease not divine retribution, takes a different perspective. The current legal instance is that the mad are not responsible, however in extreme murderous cases we do hold them responsible.(shrug)
So what side of the line do you fall upon? Are the insane responsible for their actions after the onset of insanity?
Now I think Smeagol, before he ever touched the RING was borderline unstable. All it took to shove him into the realm of insanity was his grasping the RING. I can't hold him to blame for anything he did subsequently. Poor guy touched a time bomb.
A couple of pennies worth.
I don't know if I would consider Gollum mad, something we might want to follow as we move along. We may even have to come up with working definitions as to what is "mad" or "insane." I think insane is a legal definition and not a medical one. He is amazingly resilient. I would consider him mildly schizophrenic, because he slips in and out of that. Gollum is very clever and quite capable of behaving in sane and lucid manner when he has to. Except when he is in his schizophrenic phase, he seems very much aware of what he is doing.
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-27-2008 10:23 PM
----------------
Dissociative Identity Disorder, as defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a condition in which a single person displays multiple distinct identities or personalities, each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. The diagnosis requires that at least two personalities routinely take control of the individual's behavior with an associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness; in addition, symptoms cannot be due to substance abuse or medical condition. Earlier versions of the DSM named the condition multiple personality disorder (MPD).
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-27-2008 10:41 PM
Paranoid Personality Disorder
Paranoid Personality Disorder essentially is an ongoing, unbased suspiciousness and distrust of people. Along with this, the person suffering from PPD is emotionally detached....These factors include: suspicion that others are exploiting, or deceiving them, that others may not be loyal or trustworthy, believes there are threats or attacks on their character in innocent statements that others do not see, and bears persistent grudges.
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I'm not sure. But this is kind of what we see flare up for brief periods when someone indicates they may take the Ring, or at least the bearer (Bilbo in Chapter 1 and Frodo later on) thinks so. Or, in the case of Boromir when Frodo refuses to give him the Ring. This also may describe Gollum in The Hobbit when he discovers the Ring is missing.
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-28-2008 01:02 AM
Paranoid -check Multiple personalities -check Delusional -check Psychosomatic pain -check
His great strength and resistance to pain are often attributed to the insane.
Moments of clarity and control are not unknown to the delusional. Psychotic breaks are not necessarily constant.
(shrug) But whether Gollum is crazy is really up to the individual perspective.
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-28-2008 09:19 PM
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-28-2008 09:28 PM
What I'm having trouble with is the fact that Frodo was completely blind while Sam could see where Frodo was. If Frodo was in total darkness and Sam could not see him I wouldn't have any problem either. But we are not given a clue, at least that I noticed, why Frodo was totally blind until he was able to see the elven rope. No explanation or speculation was offered and that was the end of the incident.
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapters 2. The Passage of the Marshes
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05-28-2008 09:54 PM
I also like Gollum's cynicism about the subject. Gollum doesn't seem to think too much of the naive Frodo and Sam when dealing with real world situations.
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-29-2008 03:43 AM
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I wonder if it has anything to do with the gift from Galadriel?
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-29-2008 08:14 AM
lorien wrote:
Another loose end. When Frodo was climbing down the cliff there was shriek, an enveloping darkness and a wind that almost blew him off the cliff. It could have been just the passing storm--even a small tornado would fit the situation. There was also some indication that it could have been an Nazgul flying by. The ambiguity and the speculation is fine with me. That is also worthy of discussion.
What I'm having trouble with is the fact that Frodo was completely blind while Sam could see where Frodo was. If Frodo was in total darkness and Sam could not see him I wouldn't have any problem either. But we are not given a clue, at least that I noticed, why Frodo was totally blind until he was able to see the elven rope. No explanation or speculation was offered and that was the end of the incident.
I think Tolkien intended his readers to understand that a Nazgul did in fact fly directly over the hobbits, and that, out here in the wilderness, close upon the margins of Mordor, its screech was redoubled in its paralyzing intensity. Frodo is actually stricken blind by the Nazgul's scream. (TT "The Taming of Smeagol," p 213) I always took Frodo's sudden blindness as a measure of the Ring's increasing power as it was carried ever closer to its source, Orodruin, and Sauron. The Nine Nazgul also seem to increase in power the nearer they are to their home turf. Frodo, bearing the Ring, reacts more violently to the presence of the Nazgul that flies over them, while Sam is less impacted by the Ring, and Sam does not carry Frodo's knife-wound to sensitize him to the wraiths. The rope, having certain "magical" properties (self-unknotting), became faintly luminous to Frodo's eyes when he most needed to be able to see it.
Hammond and Scull have this to say about the incident: II: 213 -- "high shrill shriek -- The sound of a Ringwraith in flight. Tom Shippey suggests that it 'was coming back from a fruitless wait for Grishnakh the orc, dead and burnt that same day, with the smoke from his burning "seen by many watchful eyes"' (The Road to Middle-earth, p. 146)." (H&S LRC, p. 444)
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-31-2008 12:50 AM
^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
Ardo Whortleberry
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-31-2008 03:13 AM
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Ardo Whortleberry
Re: TTT: Book 4: Chapter 1. The Taming of Smeagol
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05-31-2008 06:27 AM
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Ardo Whortleberry
Re: Is Smeagol/ Gollum Good or Bad?
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05-31-2008 11:25 AM
With the writing of LotR, Tolkien altered the character of Gollum's magic ring, elevating it to its potent position as The One Ring. It now became necessary to alter Gollum's own nature, and make him a far more desperately dangerous, and deceitful creature, a mind-blasted addict whose dope was the Ring. A more suitable "back-history" had to be developed for Gollum, detailing who/ what he had been; how he had possessed himself of the Ring; and how the Ring eventually possessed him, together with the great changes it made in his personality, body, and mind. Gollum, now Smeagol, was made a hobbit, but the back story was not sufficiently detailed in LotR to give us a chance to class him (in his pre-Ring days) as a "bad" hobbit, like Lotho Pimple, Lobelia, Ted Sandyman, or simply a regular "good" hobbit (like Samwise) who will later be vastly perverted by the Ring. It is perhaps somewhat indicative of his originally "bad" nature that the mere, first sight of the Ring calls so strongly upon some answering evil in Smeagol, that, before he even touches the thing, or wears it, it corrupts him to an immediate act of murder. Had two "regular" or good hobbits come upon the Ring by chance, say Merry and Pippin, would the result have been the prompt murder of one of them by the other? So, I think we are fairly safe in assuming that there was something "wrong" with Smeagol the hobbit from the beginning, some character flaw that left him particularly vulnerable to the Ring's seduction and control.
Still, perhaps because there were two Gollums, the 1937, dangerous but honourable creature, and the LotR degraded addicted character, the final Gollum comes out looking schizophrenic -- he is sometimes motivated by honourable intentions (as was the 1937 Gollum), but now, in LotR, he is sometimes overpowered by his own desires and the rot the Ring has created in his brain. Sometimes he is an object that solicits our pity, sometimes he is a hateful bundle of sheer malice. I think Tolkien's real genius shines out here, he keeps us ever in suspense with Smeagol/ Gollum, never letting us become comfortable with the ever-changing character, never letting us resolve the ambiguities that surround him, never letting us fully assign him a role that can distinctly be said to be "evil" or "good." This constant tension of suspended judgment makes Gollum the most memorable and vitally alive of all Tolkien's characters, or so I believe.
Re: Is Smeagol/ Gollum Good or Bad?
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05-31-2008 12:19 PM
Still, perhaps because there were two Gollums, the 1937, dangerous but honourable creature, and the LotR degraded addicted character, the final Gollum comes out looking schizophrenic -- he is sometimes motivated by honourable intentions (as was the 1937 Gollum), but now, in LotR, he is sometimes overpowered by his own desires and the rot the Ring has created in his brain. Sometimes he is an object that solicits our pity, sometimes he is a hateful bundle of sheer malice. I think Tolkien's real genius shines out here, he keeps us ever in suspense with Smeagol/ Gollum, never letting us become comfortable with the ever-changing character, never letting us resolve the ambiguities that surround him, never letting us fully assign him a role that can distinctly be said to be "evil" or "good." This constant tension of suspended judgment makes Gollum the most memorable and vitally alive of all Tolkien's characters, or so I believe.
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What a great theory, Dagor! Of course both Gollums would be fresh in Tolkien's memory at the time he was writing this and he was still probably working out some of the reconciliation. And I think quite brilliantly he made his LOTR Gollum both. This does make Smeagle/Gollum the most interesting character in the book. If we didn't know the outcome, I think there would be more debate over whether Gollum is good or evil. However, even knowing the outcome, I think there is still a debate.
-------------SPOILER--------------
In the end, there is an assumption the "bad" Gollum prevailed but it is possible to see it the other way and argue the point that Frodo failed and Smeagle emerged. Smeagle fully understood the prevailing evil of the Ring and he, more than anyone else, understood how it could destroy the possessor. He also finally understood Frodo's mission, had a strong affection for Frodo and realized that the only solution was to sacrifice himself and the Ring. He did exactly what Brunnhilde did in Wagner's Ring. Note, he did not try to kill Frodo.
From Wikipedia:
Upon their return, Brünnhilde takes charge, and has a pyre built in which she is to perish, cleansing the ring of its curse and returning it to the Rhinemaidens. Her pyre becomes the signal by which Valhalla also perishes in flame.
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I might add and then a new world order begins.
Re: Is Smeagol/ Gollum Good or Bad?
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05-31-2008 11:11 PM
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Ardo Whortleberry
Re: Is Smeagol/ Gollum Good or Bad?
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06-01-2008 01:43 AM
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Ardo Whortleberry
Re: Is Smeagol/ Gollum Good or Bad?
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06-01-2008 04:47 AM
*Warning if you're eating or squeamish*
Now this is supposing that goblin flesh has relevance to human flesh, or is similar. But cannibalism has many pitfalls. Both Kuru and Mad Cow(the human version) are insanity causing diseases commonly infections gained through the cannibalistic consumption of human flesh.
Over the years Gollum ate a lot of goblin. (chuckle)Food for thought.