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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender



TiggerBear wrote:
I've never checked, anyone know if or how many daughters Tolkien had. Would this have made a difference in the books?


Tolkien's last child, born in 1929, was a daughter named Priscilla. 
The Hobbit was told to and written for Tolkien's sons only, since Priscilla wasn't old enough. 
Tolkien stated in 1937, Letter# 17, that his daughter wanted to hear more about the Tooks in the sequel to the Hobbit.
I fancy that Galadriel and Eowyn were written for her...but, I have no proof of this. 
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender



lorien wrote:
The gender problem I'm finding in LOTR is not so much how he defines women but the lack of females to begin with. There are only four major females in the whole book. I think when we get down to Lobilia Sackville-Baggins and Shelob we are really hunting. So I was wondering what sort of females could he have included and yet be consistent with the semi-feudal times he is writing about.

I would have loved Denethor to have a Lady Macbeth wife. She could have been the one who got him to look into the palantir.

Message Edited by lorien on 03-26-2008 07:57 PM

Five paragraphs before, "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in Appendix A, section iv, tells of Denethor and Finduilas, his wife.
 
One of the reasons I like Sil so much is that there are more women, strong women.  Hint...Hint.
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

I was starting to catch on that the Silm did have more women, and significant women. In fact, as I thought on it, I think Tolkien (in his historical myth context) might have had it right. In the Silm ages women were equal in every way to men. The Third age is historically a Patriarchal society and men do dominate it as they did in our own mythic feudal times. However, this does not seem to be true for the Elves of the same period. It is also a bit different for the Rohirrin who seem to be more of a nomadic people where women had to be able to ride horses and use a sword as well so they were trained as such. (Before you say anything, I know it is in the Appendix :smileytongue: I haven't read that yet but hope to get to it today sometime.)

I also have some totally different thoughts on the matter that haven't quite come together yet. I will also try to post on that a bit later.




Fanuidhol wrote:


lorien wrote:
The gender problem I'm finding in LOTR is not so much how he defines women but the lack of females to begin with. There are only four major females in the whole book. I think when we get down to Lobilia Sackville-Baggins and Shelob we are really hunting. So I was wondering what sort of females could he have included and yet be consistent with the semi-feudal times he is writing about.

I would have loved Denethor to have a Lady Macbeth wife. She could have been the one who got him to look into the palantir.

Message Edited by lorien on 03-26-2008 07:57 PM

Five paragraphs before, "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in Appendix A, section iv, tells of Denethor and Finduilas, his wife.
One of the reasons I like Sil so much is that there are more women, strong women. Hint...Hint.
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

Exactly, thank you. I didn't have the sats on hand. And since I only remembered a daughter didn't want to assume.

But the rising site of women in Tolkien books has a coralation with his daughters awareness of his writing. Wonder what his wife thought?
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

J.R.R. Tolkien was a vivid writer of fantasy but was a man of his own times.  What I mean to say is that he was not a chauvenist but he believed men were warriors and women stayed at home.  Remember when Aragorn denied Eowyn's request that she accompany him into battle?  She had to dress as a warrior w/ a helmet masking her features, so that no man, not even her father would know.  Arwen should have been a warrior princess like Eowyn but she never picked up a sword.  She advised her father about the war, so it would seem to indicate that she was at least interested. 
 Tolkien romanticizes the woman.  At least from my perspective.  Its true that they are women who could be cast as heroines or villians.  Why not Sauronia instead of Sauron?  I think that would have made more of a believable character.  I have been reading Tolkien since age 12. 
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

Arwen is halfelven like he father and loved a human man.  But you're right, elves are monogamous, I think
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

Tom Bombadil told of her accomplishments in the FOTR and praised her. pggs. 119-133. (Peter Jackson's movie edition.  I think she's an undervalued potential heroine of TLOTR's ivalling Galadriel.  She did speak a lot in the book as well as Tom.  The only drawback is that the hobbits did not stay for very long, but she was very knowledgable abot the geography being the 'River's daughter".:smileyhappy:
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender


cationpillow wrote:
J.R.R. Tolkien was a vivid writer of fantasy but was a man of his own times. What I mean to say is that he was not a chauvenist but he believed men were warriors and women stayed at home. Remember when Aragorn denied Eowyn's request that she accompany him into battle? She had to dress as a warrior w/ a helmet masking her features, so that no man, not even her father would know. Arwen should have been a warrior princess like Eowyn but she never picked up a sword. She advised her father about the war, so it would seem to indicate that she was at least interested.
Tolkien romanticizes the woman. At least from my perspective. Its true that they are women who could be cast as heroines or villians. Why not Sauronia instead of Sauron? I think that would have made more of a believable character. I have been reading Tolkien since age 12.





Welcome to the group. You certainly have been a fan for a long time. I think you have made a very good point here. For women like Eowyn to come forward and feel productive and useful, they had to assume male roles.

I like the Sauronia idea, though you have to admit, as far as the Ring is concerned we actually don't know what sex form Sauron assumed if any. I believe he was some sort of disembodied evil being for about 6,000 years. I'm not sure but I seem to remember from somewhere that "divine" type (I don't know what you might call them) beings who really had no bodily form could "cloth" themselves in what ever form they chose to assume. In any case, people would be complaining that women were cast in negative roles. You can't win! I don't remember now, I think my mind is getting a bit muddled since I keep thinking "eye" from the movie, what form did Sauron take?
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender


cationpillow wrote:
Arwen is halfelven like he father and loved a human man. But you're right, elves are monogamous, I think





It may take awhile before you pick up on a lot of the oddities of posting, but it is helpful if you punch the "Quote Post" button to the right of the message or at least copy over the portion of the message you are responding to. Or somehow let us know what message you are referring to. Otherwise I have no idea who made the original remark you are responding to. I know it is obvious to you, but I haven't signed on for awhile and haven't been following the lines of conversation.

However, I think the subject of elves being "monogamous" is an interesting concept. Except for being identified as one sex or another, their gender roles do seem to be very similar. Elrond and Galadriel are equals in LOTR (I don't know about prior). Breeding roles are certainly minimal. Considering that they have lived for thousands of years, they don't have many children to show for it. Just the token number to fill out the genealogical trees. But that is probably quite fortunate. If they bred as frequently as human, Middle-earth would be wall-to-wall elves!
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender


cationpillow wrote:
Tom Bombadil told of her accomplishments in the FOTR and praised her. pggs. 119-133. (Peter Jackson's movie edition. I think she's an undervalued potential heroine of TLOTR's ivalling Galadriel. She did speak a lot in the book as well as Tom. The only drawback is that the hobbits did not stay for very long, but she was very knowledgable abot the geography being the 'River's daughter".:smileyhappy:





I guess you are referring to Goldberry here. I will have to look at this again. Somehow I don't remember her as that significant a character, except that Tom was rather fond of her.

Thanks for the page reference. She does seem like an equal to Tom. I seem to remember reading somewhere in one of the posts that there were similarities between her and Galadriel.
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender



cationpillow wrote:
J.R.R. Tolkien was a vivid writer of fantasy but was a man of his own times.  What I mean to say is that he was not a chauvenist but he believed men were warriors and women stayed at home.  Remember when Aragorn denied Eowyn's request that she accompany him into battle?  She had to dress as a warrior w/ a helmet masking her features, so that no man, not even her father would know.  Arwen should have been a warrior princess like Eowyn but she never picked up a sword.  She advised her father about the war, so it would seem to indicate that she was at least interested. 
 Tolkien romanticizes the woman.  At least from my perspective.  Its true that they are women who could be cast as heroines or villians.  Why not Sauronia instead of Sauron?  I think that would have made more of a believable character.  I have been reading Tolkien since age 12. 


Arwen was a late addition to the story.  It would have been difficult to include her in any battle scenes.  In a post that I wrote early on in this thread, I included a long excerpt of an article Michale Martinez wrote concerning Arwen.  Did you have a chance to read it?
 
Aragorn could not invite Eowyn to go with him.  Her King (and Uncle) gave her an order to take care of his people at Edoras.  If Tolkien really believed that women should stay at home, Eowyn would have been happy with that.  Instead Tolkien uses her to explore a part of the Rohirim (Anglo-Saxon) culture that values the warrior and war. 
 
There are many instances of women in the "thick of things" in The Silmarillion.
 
And in "real life", Tolkien tutored many female students.  He was just as proud of his daughter's accomplishments as his sons.  pg 1111 The JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide: Reader's Guide 
 
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

While researching some questions regarding the fall of the Roman Empire I started looking for material relating the origins of the various Gothic tribes. In so doing I found the "Saga of Hervor," imbedded in the Hervarar Saga, and a comment that stated JRRT had been heavily influenced by this source when he outlined his Middle-earth character, Eowyn.

I thought I'd like to follow up on this revelation by trying to find out who this Hervor might be, and see just how closely she and Eowyn might be compared.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga#Tolkien

1. Hervarar saga

Here I am using the online version translated by Peter Tunstall at:
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/oldheathen/021.php

One of the Nordic sources that JRRT used as foundation material for his own Middle-earth saga is especially important in that it provided a template for his Rohirric "shield maiden" Eowyn.

The Hervarar Saga seems first to have been written down in the middle 1200s AD, but it looks backward in time to the formation-era of the Gothic/ Germanic peoples and is primarily set in the 4th and 5th centuries when the Huns began their invasion of the tottering Roman Empire. This saga features "magical blacksmith" dwarfs named Dvalin (Dwalin) and Dulin (Durin) who are forced to forge a magical sword for a mortal king. The sword, "Tyrfing," carries the light of the sun in its blade, is sharper than the sharpest, stronger than the strongest: [It] "will bite iron like cloth and never rust. It will bring victory in battles and single combats for any who bear it.” (HS, #1, Peter Tunstall translation). Unfortunately, it also carries a curse, a curse that is reminiscent of that attached to the blade borne by Turin in Tolkien's tale: "May your sword, Sigrlami, be a man's bane each time it is drawn, and may three vile deeds be done with that sword. It will also be death to your kin.” (HS, #1)
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

A bit more on Shield Maidens -- Part 2

Hervor gets the sword:

Sigrlami himself escapes the curse of the sword, retiring to an unremarkable old age, but he gives the sword Tyrfing to his grandson, Angantyr. Angantyr and his 11 brothers win many battles, and become great Berserkers who believe themselves invincible so long as the magic sword is in their family. But in a grand melée, the 12 grandson-berserkers exhaust their furies overcoming several boatloads of their foes. As the berserker-rage ebbs, they are vulnerable, and two warriors (Hjalmar and Odd) manage to kill all of Sigrlami's grandsons though Hjalmar himself dies from the poisonous bite of Angantyr's dwarfish blade. Apparently the curse of the sword is now well known, as it is buried with Angantyr, not taken by Odd as an heirloom of spoil.

The saga switches scenes then, to introduce us to a girl-child, Svafa's troublesome daughter Hervor, a daughter without (apparently) a father. Hervor, from the first, resembles JRRT's Eowyn -- when certain adjustments are made to accomodate the differences between the rougher Germanic peoples and Tolkien's less realistic and idealized Rohirrim. Hervor is a fair-haired, beautiful girl, but possesses the spirit of a boy/ man. Forseeing trouble to come of this, some of the Goths state that Hervor should be killed at birth, exposed so that the "evil" of her nature shall not perplex the folk. But her mother and her foster father both love her as a son, and she grows up running with the boys, wrestling, riding, fighting, training "more with shot and shield and sword than sewing or embroidery."

Once grown to full stature, she finds out that her real father was the famous berserker Angantyr, and she decides to visit his grave, to claim her heritage. Dressed up in warrior gear, disguised as a male, and moving under the assumed, masculine name of Hervard, she joins a viking crew and stops at the Isle of Samsey where her father's Howe is piled.

"A little later, the captain died and this 'Hervard' took command of the crew, and when they came to the island of Samsey, Hervard told them to stop there so she could go up onto the island, and said there would be a good chance of treasure in the mound. But all the crewmen speak against it and say that such terrible ghouls walk there night and day, that it is worse there in the daytime than most places at night. In the end, they agree to drop anchor, and Hervor climbed in the boat and rowed ashore and landed in Munway just as the sun was setting." (HS, # 5)

Hervor approaches the tombs of her relatives, and sees that they are covered by more than earth, for a ghost-flame burns about the mounds. Bold as any male from the heroic tales, she wades through the foglike stuff and addresses the dead:

"Awake, Angantyr,
Hervor wakes you,
only daughter
of you and Svafa;
from your crypt give me
that keenest blade,
the sword dwarves struck
for King Sigrlami."

Angantyr finally replies to her calls:

“Hervor, daughter,
what drives you to call so?
Brimful of bale-runes,
you're bound for grief.
You're out of your mind,
mad have you gone,
lost your wits now,
waking up dead men."

Angantyr tries to dissuade her from claiming the ill-fated sword, but Hervor is made of stern stuff, and when the tomb opens, and the rotting dead show themselves, she does not blanch:

“Oh, you can't burn
any bonfires by night,
no flames flaring
to frighten me;
your daughter's mind
does not tremble
though dead men there
in the door she see.”

Angantyr gives Hervor a prophetic warning, that if she takes the blade her son will inherit it, will do great deeds and then perish by the very blade that allows him to win renown. Hervor is dauntless, and demands the cursed thing anyway:

“I did think I was mortal,
among the living,
till down I came
to your dead men's hall;
hand me from your howe, then,
what hates armour,
the hazard of shields
Hjalmar's bane.”

Angantyr cannot longer refuse her, and with a last warning he gives her the blade:

“You're foolish, Hervor,
but full of daring,
to rush at flames
before your eyes;
rather, young girl,
I think I'll give you
the cleaver from my cairn,
I can't refuse.”

Carrying now this heirloom of doom, Hervor returns to her home, but plays still the male role, and calls herself yet Hervard. She goes forth, seeking adventures, fights and slays giants, kills many men in raiding wars, until she tires of this "man's play" and returns to her foster father's stead, drops the name Hervard, and becomes again a woman, "weaving and doing embroidery."

She even consents to marry Hofund son of Godmund, a quiet, kindly, decent chap who settles his neighbors' arguments without favoritism, and becomes a deeply beloved ruler. Hervor bears two sons of this union, one named for her father, Angantyr, the other was called Heidrek. Angantyr was a gentle man, a law giver, a maker of peace. But Heidrek was a sullen fellow, a quarrelsome, egotistical sort who started fights that Angantyr had to quell. One night Heidrek was temporarily banished from the stead for fighting, and in his sulking withdrawal Heidrek picked up a huge stone and tossed it into the dark where he could hear some voices. Of course the stone hit Angantyr, and killed him at once. Heidrek's banishment is made permanent, but before he leaves Hervor gives him the cursed sword Tyrfing:

“You've done it now, my son. The way you've fixed things, you can't expect to be back--so there's not much I can do to help you. Here is a mark of gold and a sword, which I want to give you. It is called Tyrfing and it belonged to Angantyr the berserk, your grandfather. No one is so ignorant they haven't heard tell of him. And if you come to where men trade blows, just remember how Tyrfing has often been victorious.” (HS, #6)

Heidrek then continues in this saga as its central character -- and many fine adventures he has before the sword Tyrfang twists round to encompass his doom -- but those tales I'll leave for you to find yourselves. I am, afterall, concerned here with Hervor, and how she influenced JRRT when he wrote up his tale of Eowyn.

Next: contrast/ comparison, Hervor and Eowyn.
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

[ Edited ]
A Bit more on Shield Maidens -- Part 3

After the initial 6 sections of the narration of the Hervarar, Hervor seems to have been finished with her part of the story, and sections 7 through 11 then detail the deeds of a repentant Heidrik who finally becomes a great king in his own right. There is even a very long series of riddles which Heidrek answers in order to demonstrate his wisdom, riddles which present some elements that JRRT reworked as parts of his contest between Bilbo and Gollum in The Hobbit. But "Hervor" then suddenly reappears, but does so in a confusing way in section 13 where she is now called the sister of Angantyr III, her own grandson. This section and the following one, #14, may be later interpolations, or alternate versions of the Hervor saga where the original status of Hervor, the daughter of the first Angantyr, has been forgotten. It may also be that in these two sections we are dealing with a second Hervor, another shield maiden who simply has the same name as her famous grandmother?

Either way, this later Hervor is also a great warrior, and she meets her end (in section #14) when she gathers a host and moves out onto the plains to check the advances of the invading Huns:

"Now Ormar rode back to the fortress, and found Hervor armed and all the army ready. Now they rode out of the fortress with their army against the Huns, and there began a mighty battle. And as the Huns have a much bigger force, the slaughter turned to the Gothic side, and at last Hervor fell, and many Goths around her. And when Ormar saw her fall, he fled along with all who survived. Ormar rode day and night as fast as he could to King Angantyr in Arheimar. The Huns now take to harrying the land, pillaging and burning far and wide." (HS, #14, Tunstall trans.)

Apparently this section 14 death of Hervor stimulated Peter Nicolai Arbo (1831- 92) to create a romantic styled painting that depicted the golden-haired shield maiden lying on the field of her last battle. This picture would have been available for JRRT's viewing and it has been suggested in the Wikipedia article that this representation sparked Tolkien's own description of the fall of Eowyn.

*For picture, try Wikipedia, "Hervarar saga" in their search function. Originally I got there through a Google search for the Hervarar saga. The picture, enlargeable, is about 1/5th of the way down the first page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga

While there are many strong similarities between Hervor and Eowyn, readers of the trilogy will see just as many differences:

1. both Hervor and Eowyn represent rebellious women who act outside the common bonds of their assigned roles as high status (princess) females.

2. Hervor and Eowyn are good individual fighters, capable of standing against "supernatural" foes (Hervor slays a giant, Eowyn -- with help from Merry -- slays an "undead" witch king).

3. Both Hervor and Eowyn are good commanders of men, and can inspire their followers to battle fiercely under this female direction. Eowyn was to have been trusted with the defense of Rohan, had she not disguised herself as a man, Dernhelm, and ridden off to war in the south. Hervor leads many battle formations, sometimes diguised as a man, Hervard and sometimes she leads as a woman. In fact, as a woman she dies leading her host into a hopeless situation.

4. In their final actions, Hervor and Eowyn both come to terms with their female status, and (if we look only at the first Hervor of sections 1 through 11) both settle into marriage, renouncing the male role of warrior to take up the domestic duties of wife and mother.

For major contrasts I have two:

A. Tolkien seems, to my reckoning, to have "gentled" and "civilized" his shield maiden. Eowyn does not rejoice in slaying just for the sake of killing, nor does she kill in anger and from mere pride, as does Hervor when she slays her first giant simply because he picked up her sword to look at the blade (she snatches it back from him, and lopps off his head when he is unarmed!). So, I think Tolkien pares away some of the 12th century "barbarian" nature of Hervor when he reworks her as Eowyn, a typically pure Victorian/ Edwardian heroine in many ways.

B. If we include the second "Hervor," found in section 14, another major difference is that Hervor dies on the last field of battle, while Eowyn, facing similar hopeless odds, is stricken down, near to death, yet revived to live on into a new age of hope and peace.

_____________
I found it intersting that Christopher Tolkien worked heavily on the translation and commentaries for the Saga of Hervor during his own university career back in the 1950s - 60s:

Tolkien: Hervarar Saga ok Heidreks Konungs. C.J.R. Tolkien (Oxford University, Trinity College). B. Litt. thesis. 1953/4. [Year uncertain]
* The Battle of the Goths and the Huns. Christopher Tolkien, in Saga-Book (University College, London, for the Viking Society for Northern Research) 14, part 3 (1955-6), pp. [141]-63.
* Hervarar Saga ok Heidreks. Ed. (E.O.) G. Turville-Petre. London: University College London, for the Viking Society for Northern Research, 1956; introduction by Christopher Tolkien.
* The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise. Ed. and trans. Christopher Tolkien. London: Thomas Nelson & Sons (Icelandic Texts), 1960. [30 Jun 60]

c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga

Message Edited by Dagor on 05-13-2008 11:17 AM
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

Given their publication dates, I thought this was more forgivable from writers like Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander who could have more understandably assumed that only boys read adventure fantasies and that only males have adventures.

I found it less forgivable in the 21st century Harry Potter that the lead female character is still just a sidekick and still has to be twice as smart in order to run with the boys.







lorien wrote:
The gender problem I'm finding in LOTR is not so much how he defines women but the lack of females to begin with. There are only four major females in the whole book. I think when we get down to Lobilia Sackville-Baggins and Shelob we are really hunting. So I was wondering what sort of females could he have included and yet be consistent with the semi-feudal times he is writing about.

I would have loved Denethor to have a Lady Macbeth wife. She could have been the one who got him to look into the palantir.

Message Edited by lorien on 03-26-2008 07:57 PM


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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

Interesting point. And the author was a woman! And if I recall correctly, in the Sorcerer's Stone she was rejected by the boys for being smart and so spent a long time crying in the bathroom until the boys came along and rescued her from the Troll -- for which she was eternally grateful enough to lower her standards by lying.

Can you imagine things being different and Ron running to the bathroom to cry because he couldn't levitate his feather and thought himself a failure as a wizard!



JesseBC wrote:
Given their publication dates, I thought this was more forgivable from writers like Tolkien and Lloyd Alexander who could have more understandably assumed that only boys read adventure fantasies and that only males have adventures.

I found it less forgivable in the 21st century Harry Potter that the lead female character is still just a sidekick and still has to be twice as smart in order to run with the boys.







lorien wrote:
The gender problem I'm finding in LOTR is not so much how he defines women but the lack of females to begin with. There are only four major females in the whole book. I think when we get down to Lobilia Sackville-Baggins and Shelob we are really hunting. So I was wondering what sort of females could he have included and yet be consistent with the semi-feudal times he is writing about.

I would have loved Denethor to have a Lady Macbeth wife. She could have been the one who got him to look into the palantir.

Message Edited by lorien on 03-26-2008 07:57 PM




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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

Tolkien, yes. C.S. Lewis and Lloyd Alexander, NO.
For them it had nothing to do with their time, but all to do with their religious habits.
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Re: Tolkien and the Female Gender

I cited a summary of the Silm on the other board (I have to do my posting with two tabs open!) but I particularly to highlight this comment on the role of women in Tolkien's work:

 

Summary

 

"A frequently cited flaw in Lord of the Rings is the lack of female characters. While this is clearly an issue of heavy debate, this unfair perception seems permanently embedded in the mind of Tolkien's critics.

 

Incidentally, I would say that in Lord of the Rings, there are few major characters period who undergo any significant character development. In a book which is dominated by the telling of a major war, in which most major characters are military leaders, the fact that Eowyn (one of the few characters at all who undergoes significant personal change), Galadriel, and Arwen (and others like Goldberry, Rose, etc.) show up at all gives women a moderately high profile. If Tolkien has a weakness, it isn't so much the women aren't there, but that the nature of the epic means that a lot of time is spent introducing and keeping track of characters who don't undergo any significant development. But that's going to happen in an epic, where characters are introduced to play a role or give depth to the panoramic world and who are not intended to undergo character development. Since the predominant thrust of the epic is the war on Sauron at both the micro and macro level, more incidental characters tend to be men. When Tolkien switches from what is essentially a fictional war story to the more diverse legendarium of The Silmarillion, many more women emerge in different roles.

 

Tolkien wanted The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings to be published together as a whole. Had this come to pass, the debate about women would never have arisen. Tolkien simply put most of the women in The Silmarillion.

 

If you like strong women characters, then The Silmarillion will be a welcome addition to the Tolkien canon. Unlike Arwen, Luthien is a powerful force who takes on Sauron directly instead of staying home sewing. Elwing is a dynamic and brave person.

 

The Silmarillion is older, legendary material. Most real-life legends from far back in human history have strong women characters. The Britomarts (Spenser), Bradamants (Ariosto), Hervors (from the Saga), etc of ancient days were strong, forceful women. As time passed, these characters diminished. By the later Arthurian legends (Mallory, Tennyson), the dominant force was male knights with swooning females in the background. In much the same way, Tolkien's Luthien, who fought with Sauron to rescue Beren, later became Arwen, who stayed at home sewing while Aragorn went to war."

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