Who is the Hero of LOTR? (SPOILER THREAD) [ Edited ]

[TiggerBear]

Sauron --- well, there can be little doubt his use of The One Ring was selfish in its nature --- he even created The Ring to further his own selfish ends --- But it doesn't seem like The Ring could have corrupted him anymore than he was corrupted already --- ( it could even be more the other way round ) ---
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(sigh) no, don't tell me you want to discuss how SAURON gets corrupted by a part of himself?!


Just realized how harsh, this came off. Believe me if you want to go there I'll follow. I kinda just wanted to make sure this was where you were going.

Message Edited by TiggerBear on 03-13-2008 07:42 PM

[TiggerBear]

Look also to after the battle with Shelob when Sam rescues Frodo, when Frodo finds out that Sam has the Ring.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Good Afternoon, TiggerBear ( and everybody else, of course ) ----

I believe you are referring to that scene in Minas Morgul, where Frodo only sees Sam as some kind of grasping orc ( in a kind of hallucination ) ---- but this is a such a transitory event - it all passes very quickly - and I'm not sure if you would want to describe it exactly as "corruption" - although it is another case of TOR

attempting to exert its own will over whoever its present "owner" is - ( and, of course, who is the real "owner" -TOR, or the ring-wearer? - that gets discussed by Gandalf very early on - in Chapter 2 in LOTR ) ----

And there is another quite similar scene much earlier in the story

( in "The Many Meetings" chapter ) -

where, when Bilbo asks to just look at TOR, "a shadow" passes between Frodo and Bilbo, and Frodo sees Bilbo as some kind of grasping creature -- I think this is perhaps both TOR "revealing" to Frodo Bilbo's true

intent in wanting to see TOR again ( in so much as it knows Bilbo has already been "corrupted" by itself - but only up to a point  - as TOR had already been trying to exert its influence on Bilbo for all those years he had carried it around  ) -

And then too, TOR is "finished" with Bilbo - it knows it won't be going anywhere with him - it prefers to stay with its new "owner" -

and also shows how TOR tries to take control over the mind of its bearer - making Frodo jealously possessive of it, and also turning two people who know and love each other against each other ( but again, only momentarily - the "madness" passes ) ----

I think trying to discuss whether Sauron or not corrupted himself  is quite beyond me -- trying to even grasp that concept just sort of boggles my mind ---

Ardo Whortleberry 

[TiggerBear]

oh I agree, its just that particular incident is when I find it no longer deniable that the Ring has warped Frodo.

[lorien]

---

TiggerBear wrote:
oh I agree, its just that particular incident is when I find it no longer deniable that the Ring has warped Frodo.

---

Last night I started to read the excellent essay Fan pointed us to under the Book thread. The discussion I was reading centered around the temptation to possess The Ring. Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Boromir were all tested. All passed but two failed: Frodo and Boromir. It is easy to forget, since Frodo is the central Ring Bearer, that in the end he did fail and want to possess the Ring for himself.

The trio that passed is interesting because they did have something in common--they were bearers of the elven rings and chose to be diminished rather than except the One Ring. I do believe they are central to Book 2 and I will be covering that line of thought when I get to that book.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Iorien ----

Your thought in the FOTR ( "The Shadow OF The Past" ) discussion that:

"The hobbits...were an innocent people and ill prepared for a time when evil did actually enter the Shire.

But that probably made them the best Ring-bearers." ---

Makes me think about what I was trying to express with all that "Purity Of Heart" business in my earlier letters to this Thread...

The hobbits are innocent, in that, given a Ring Of Power, they would really have no "Ulterior Motives" in using in having it, or using it...

No Dreams Of Glory, no cravings for Power, no desire to dominate...

Their only true desire and objective in the world is to live a peaceful existence, with plenty to eat, drink and smoke.

With Frodo caving in to the lure of The Ring, I think it might still be good to bear in mind that he never caved in completely until he was standing on the very brink of The Cracks Of Mount Doom, at the very heart of Sauron's power and where The Ring was first forged ....

Ardo Whortleberry

Tolkien Reader

[Dagor]

Re: Lorien's -- "The trio that passed is interesting because they did have something in common--they were bearers of the elven rings and chose to be diminished rather than except the One Ring. I do believe they are central to Book 2 and I will be covering that line of thought when I get to that book."

I used to wonder how much, especially for Gandalf, the possession of the Elven Rings fortified them in their struggles against the One -- still an open question. Would the power of these Three Rings be quashed in the presence of the One, designed especially for their domination and control? Perhaps, faced with the One Ring right at hand, these three were temporarily stripped of "ring assistance," and had to face the challenges, naked before its temptation? That would be more in fitting with JRRT's value system, wouldn't it?

I also find we might want to add the two Mortal Men, Aragorn and Faramir to those who could have taken the One Ring (especially Faramir!). They had no Elven Rings to aid them, yet they were also able -- relying on their own character strengths -- to resist the One...

[oldBPLstackden…]

For Dagor ---

I think maybe we should look again at that quote from Frodo in a broader context:

[       'I do not mean the danger that we all share,' said Frodo. ' I mean a danger to yourself alone. You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol    you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious, and the Precious mastered you long ago.....' ]

( also from the same chapter [ The Black Gate Is Closed ] in [ The Two Towers ] )

To my mind, this reveals not so much that Frodo has become so "attached" to the Ring that he would rather commit murder ( by wearing it and then commanding Gollum to cast himself into the fire ) than be parted from it   ---  but more that Frodo has reached an almost complete understanding  of the Ring, of its nature, of its powers, and also an almost complete understanding of the mind of Smeagol/Gollum. ---

Frodo also knows that by threatening Gollum with the power of the Ring, he can keep Gollum under control

( up to a point ) - as he and Sam still need Gollum's assistance as a guide, but they must keep Gollum away from their throats while they are sleeping....

Frodo is still basically CURSED with the Ring, the driving force behind his weary steps is his knowledge that he must ( somehow ) destroy it. ---

In a bizarre "twist of fate" - could it possibly be possible that Frodo's subconcious told him the only way for him to be able to "detach" himself from the Ring  ( in the end )  was to put it on, and have Gollum then take it from him? I know that's a big stretch --- just another consideration ----

Ardo Whortleberry

Tolkien Reader 

[Dagor]

Excellent point, Ardo! Mmm, I like your interpretation as well. It gives us, I think, an understanding of Frodo's "advance" along the path to becoming a Power in his own right, he has become politically manipulative, uttering just the right sort of threat to secure Gollum's obedience, at least temporarily?

[oldBPLstackden…]

                                   ********SPOILERS*******

First of all, thank you very much, Dagor!

For simplicity's sake --- TOR = The One Ring

It would seem perhaps as though TOR is getting a little out of control in this Thread, which was originated to be concerned with "Who is the Hero in LOTR?" ( unless TOR is the Hero? ) --- This Ring discussion probably needs its own Thread now, but in the meantime, I'd like to elaborate some more on my earlier comments right here.

There is another scene earlier in the book, where we also see Frodo transformed from the mild, gentle and unassuming hobbit that we know him as into something else again ---

This is from the chapter "The Taming Of Smeagol" [ The Two Towers ]:

"For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a

mighty lord who hid his brightness in a grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were both in some way akin and not alien:they could reach one another's minds."

Both this scene, and the scene discussed before, are very dramatic moments in the story.

Again, in this scene, we can see that Frodo is still the "master" ( as far as it is possible for a small creature who bears no obvious outward signs of great strength, nobility or power ) of TOR, and not its slave.

This scene also points to that "meeting of the minds" between Frodo and Gollum - in so much as they have both been Ring-Bearers.----

In a quick look back at one of my earlier posts - I see that I flubbed -

Gandalf also handled TOR briefly, in "The Shadow Of The Past" - so my "Magic Number" theory of

seven handlers of TOR goes out the window.

( unless, on account of Gandalf's wearing one of the Three at the time, he was somehow touching it , and yet not touching it, at the same time? )

Once again, I have enjoyed being At Your Service,

Ardo Whortleberry

Tolkien Reader

[lorien]

Ardo Wrote:
It would seem perhaps as though TOR is getting a little out of control in this Thread, which was originated to be concerned with "Who is the Hero in LOTR?" ( unless TOR is the Hero? ) --- This Ring discussion probably needs its own Thread now, but in the meantime, I'd like to elaborate some more on my earlier comments right here.

There is another scene earlier in the book, where we also see Frodo transformed from the mild, gentle and unassuming hobbit that we know him as into something else again ---
This is from the chapter "The Taming Of Smeagol" [ The Two Towers ]:

"For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a
mighty lord who hid his brightness in a grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were both in some way akin and not alien:they could reach one another's minds."
-----------------------------

That is one terrific quote, Ardo, and observation. I'm not there yet but I'm sure going to make a note of this and come back to it later.

This is one reason I like our pace so we are not just skimming over these things and are taking time to work through them.

You may even be winning me over to your perspective.

Yes, the Ring does need its own thread! How could we not have one! Don't hesitate to start any thread you think is relevant.

[oldBPLstackden…]

lorien ---

Vis-a-vis your letter ( In the "Tolkien The Man" Thread ) - I'm highly susceptable, as well - I was even more so in my younger days, when I could be easily influenced or find my mind molded by just about everything ( or anything  ) I ever read. ---

( And - come to think of it - maybe I haven't changed that much since those days, in that way! )

I had been thinking on returning to this Thread, because I realized my concept of the "Courtroom Drama" unveiling the true identity of "The Hero"  after we have puzzled our way through all the "possible candidates"  ( and we are all suprised to discover "who it was all along" ) is a flawed concept...

The concept of something more along the lines of The Academy Awards-

   ( "The Envelope, Please..." ) is a better one.

And for more than one reason.

There are so many different heroes ( in different ways ) in the story, it seems like we could use different

"Catagories" for these various kinds of heroes in the story -

- as well as still nominating someone for "The Top Prize" - ...

"And, now, for valor in batttle, and loyalty to his king..." ( "Best Supporting Warrior" ) etcetera....

Maybe even a category for "Heroine" ( unless that would be Non-P.C. ) ---

It seems like all the main characters ( and even some of the minor characters ) get an opportunity to shine and to be heroic  ( in one way or another - and maybe not necessarily

even when they are "trying" to be heroic  ) at various times , along the way, in the story... 

Ardo

[lorien]

Ardo wrote:
It seems like all the main characters ( and even some of the minor characters ) get an opportunity to shine and to be heroic ( in one way or another - and maybe not necessarily
even when they are "trying" to be heroic ) at various times , along the way, in the story...
Ardo
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Ardo, I think you got it right! That was probably Tolkien's intention (though he still had his "favorite" hero that fit the framework of this Fairy-Stories essay). Each one of these are heroes in their own way, and I think that was part of his point. If one of these heroes had failed the whole quest would have crumpled like a house of cards. Maybe in discussing the "hero" of the story we should be emphasizing how each became and was heroic in the end.

[yavanna]

I took a very long time to finish reading what everyone wrote, especially those from Ardo

I think there's no ONE hero in LOTR like you guys mentioned, because there isn't really ONE main and utmost important character in LOTR. Here's my list:

1. Frodo

- Simply because he is courageous enough to take up the job as a ringbearer

2. Aragorn and Gandalf

- I'm putting the two together, because I regarded them as heroes for almost the same reasons. They both KNEW that they cannot possibly become the ringbearer because they knew the ring's power; they are both great people among their own kinds but they are able to humble themselves and play their own parts dutifully on the quest to destroy the ring.

While I do think that Sam plays a BIG and important part, I do not see him as a hero (please do not think that I'm downplaying his importance). He is loyal and determined and very helpful and even witty at times, but still he lacked the essence that makes a hero a hero. Some may argue that without him, Frodo can never make it to destroy the ring. But I will also say that, without the others in the fellowship (as well as our Gollum), Frodo can never make it as well.

Besides, I know that heroes are called heroes because they are extraordinary in many areas, but after reading many other books, I feel that heroes can never complete their tasks ALONE. One more thing that heroes need is LUCK, in my humble opinion, in which case, I think Frodo has a lot of those lol >

On a side note, I also think that heroes do fall and rise. So, the fact that Frodo was possessed by the ring doesn't make him less of a hero to me.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Good Afternoon, yavanna, and Welcome!

I see that you have already discovered that I am one of the most "Overwordy" of the bunch! -

( if not THE Mostest! )

I would certainly agree with you that Frodo becoming "possessed" by the Ring does not diminish his "heoicness". He shows incredible inner strength and stamina in being able to bear that burden all the way to its final destination. ---

Although for Sam, it was not a matter of having to "fight the temptation" to take the Ring and use it - ( and he didn't have to "humble" himself, because he was plenty humble as he was, already ) and the reason he undertook the Quest, with Frodo - was mainly out of his love for Frodo ( and partly curiousity to

"see the world" - at least in the beginning ) - he does also face the great quandary - remember when

it is revealed to him what is happening in the Shire ( in The Mirror of Galadriel ) ? He is sorely tempted to return to the Shire and "set things right" - it also seems like his longing to return to the Shire and resume his normal life there is stronger than the other hobbits who are on the Quest - ( Pippin and Merry seem to become completely swept up in the momentuous events going on around them - they are not always looking back wistfully at their innocent days in the Shire ).

Certainly, Frodo could never have completed his task without ALL of the different members of the Fellowship playing their part ( and, as you said, Gollum as well ) - but I think Sam plays such a significant part -

 that he should be "elevated" to "Primary Hero Status" ( for lack of a better term ).---

Thanks for your thoughts!

Ardo Overwordy-Whortleberry 

[lorien]

As we approach the third volume of the LOTR, I thought it might be worthwhile to start thinking and again talking about who is the "hero/heroine" of the book. We can also think about and talk about who is the hero of each book or volume because there is certainly a different focus for each.

[oldBPLstackden…]

Good Afternoon, Everyone --- [  and, Hi lorien!   ]

Just a couple of "nominations" that sprang immediately to mind ( as far as the "first half" of TTT goes ) ---

Treebeard ---

Without Treebeard and the Ents ( and along with the aid of the Huorns )

 - and their decision to "get involved" in the whole mess, it could have much more difficult to take Saruman "out of the picture" - and just the whole idea of Nature itself

"waking up" and fighting back against the abuses that were being heaped upon it...

[ with Treebeard at the fore-front of the "Movement" ] ---

And Gandalf ---

Of course, Gandalf is a Hero at all times throughout the story - but this is where he is able come back ( after having been considered as uttterly lost ) -   and, to come back even more strong and powerful than he was before ...And, with his new power, he is able to break the evil spell that has put on the mind of Theoden, and also he can formally dismiss Saruman from his office ...Besides which, of course, Gandalf's counsel and guidance is still needed for help in choosing the right courses of action...

Ardo