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vivico1
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DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

Lets get a few threads started here so we know where we are posting. This is for part III of the book, which is divided into 3 parts. This thread will be for the whole book. But ALSO, if you want to further narrow it down, you can put in your subject heading, the name of the chapter in Part III that you are at for spoilers but in general, anything up to the end can be discussed on this thread. I know that some may not be at page 220 for example yet either but want to discuss where they are so it would be a help to put page numbers in your subject message heading too, these will help immensely on any of the 3 part threads.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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seagate
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

Sorry I can't post pages as I lent my book to a friend and I am relying om memory.This thought scans many pages---, which was most important to Peony's arranging the love affair after death, Ren's happiness or fullfillment of her own?
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vivico1
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) end of story conclusions spoiler warning


seagate wrote:
Sorry I can't post pages as I lent my book to a friend and I am relying om memory.This thought scans many pages---, which was most important to Peony's arranging the love affair after death, Ren's happiness or fullfillment of her own?




OH wow, you are asking a loaded question, which as i have found now,from where I am at reading, will take both part II and part III to discover. And that will change as you read. I am interested in what everyone thinks about this by just the end of part II, in that section, in the way it will come up. I really have mixed feelings about Peony as we go along. I guess its trying to not "judge" her growing pains, but its difficult not to lol :smileywink: so as for what you ask here, I will take it one step at a time in the reading, as to which I think is true. If we go here now, well that is one of the end of story discussion questions. Glad you asked here , ty. I'll avoid this one for awhile, in its conclusions anyway :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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LisaSee
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too



seagate wrote:
Sorry I can't post pages as I lent my book to a friend and I am relying om memory.This thought scans many pages---, which was most important to Peony's arranging the love affair after death, Ren's happiness or fullfillment of her own?




I don't qquite understand the question. Do you mean how Peony takes charge of Tan Ze's marriage to Ren and forces her to do things? Or have you jumped ahead to Qian Yi?
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seagate
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) end of story conclusions spoiler warning

Sorry I came in too soon with the question but you can use it as a head's up" and we can think about it as we read into the chapters. The question refers to the reason for Peony's aciions . You'll knww what I mean as you read along. It is fun getting to know Peony so well.
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

I'd like to throw out some questions for part three so we can begin thinking about them. Here's the first:

We see a difference in Peony’s actions after Ze marries Ren and again after Ze dies. Do you see redemption here for Peony?
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

How does what happened during the Cataclysm change depending on who’s telling the story?
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

Peony in Love is very much a tale of secrets and the power secrets can exercise over others. Who wields the power of secrets in this story? Who succumbs to that power? Which characters experience the greatest shifts in powerful moments and abject powerlessness?
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

Early in this discussion, Peony's mother took a real beating as being a bad mother. By now you know Peony's mother's story and how she really felt about her daughter. In what ways is mother love explored? How does it change from a mother’s or daughter’s perspective? What does Peony learn about mother love and in what ways does she experience it herself? What aspects of mother love still hold true for mothers and daughters today?
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

I sort of think that a lot of her actions were for her own fulfillment. In some ways, she seemed to be having a great time, and she was manipulating...once again in control. I also think she felt that she was contributing to Ren's happiness so I'm not really answering your question!!!
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seagate
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too

That question has been haunting me . Does time alter mother love. Was is diffrent in ancient time ? Is it the same now? I believe it has always been the same. The difference lies in the fact that in ancient China the mother knew from the beginning that she would have to give her child away to the husband/s family.I recall in Snowflower the going away scene . Snowflower's mother was devasted seeing her daughter leave. I feel the mothers in that time had to brace themselves and prepare for that moment. I don't think it ever meant they ioved their daughters lass.
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too


LisaSee wrote:
How does what happened during the Cataclysm change depending on who’s telling the story?


It changes in a couple of ways. Its different when the men tell it then when the women tell it. Its different when living fathers tell it and living mothers dont. And its very different when the dead tell it. If you hear the men tell the story of Grandmother for example, she died a most honorable death, committing suicide to keep pure from the enemy and so forth, so she is revered for that. The truth is, she didnt commit suicide, not in the way they meant. What they said about it was really about saving face for themselves as men, not about revering her. It was to cover their actions, nothing more really. Grandmother did commit suicide in one sense, she did what was expected of her, she died hiding not only her sons, but her husband who "wanted to eat a little longer" and she despised him for it. Peony would never have heard this in her life, only after death. The same with what happened to her mother. History, I imagine for the most part, would tell the men's version. Makes you wonder in one sense, if the men were so ashamed of what happened that they hid these events in stories of heroism of the women, did they then maybe have some real shame about that aspect of their culture and guilt for it? Baba seems to have. If so, maybe this is an idea that even the men might feel a need for change in, if they lived it but felt such remorse in it.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too


LisaSee wrote:
I'd like to throw out some questions for part three so we can begin thinking about them. Here's the first:

We see a difference in Peony’s actions after Ze marries Ren and again after Ze dies. Do you see redemption here for Peony?


Peony's actions when Ze was married to Ren were such that when Ze dies and tells her so much of what she had done to her, Peony feels horrified at what she had really been doing, what it would really mean about her. I think this is the beginning of redemption for her hopefully, the realization of the effects of her actions on Ze. Acknowledgment is a good start. This is really speaking up to this part, not through the marriage to Yu.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too


LisaSee wrote:
Early in this discussion, Peony's mother took a real beating as being a bad mother. By now you know Peony's mother's story and how she really felt about her daughter. In what ways is mother love explored? How does it change from a mother’s or daughter’s perspective? What does Peony learn about mother love and in what ways does she experience it herself? What aspects of mother love still hold true for mothers and daughters today?


Early on, Peony's basic concept of mother love,was doing those things necessary to continue traditions and educate the daughters in what they must know in order to be presentable in society and as a head of household and as a wife. The foot binding, as painful an act as it was, was the mother love that was in that idea of mother love and pain being one. I don't think Peony knew of any other way mother love and pain could be considered. She learned tho. She learned many kinds of mother love. She learned the kind just mentioned, which is a part of what mother love is today, helping prepare daughters for those same things (not the binding of course but their futures).

She also learned so much more about mother love once she died. She learned of the love of her grandmother for her sons who she died for, her love for her daughter in law, Peony's mother. They were great friends and did many things together, things Peony never did with her mother or could even imagine doing. She learned the love of her mother and how much she loved her whole family to do what she did to save them during the cataclysm and then never mention it again. She learned of her mother's love for her in watching how much she grieved for Peony when she died and could hardly let go. She learned these sacrifices were also why mother love and pain were linked together, not just that mothers could inflict pain in the name of love to do those things necessary, but also could suffer greatly through personal sacrifice for her children and great pain at the lose of one. And she learned mother love was also the sacrifice of your wishes at times for what is best for the daughter. She learned this personally, finally, through her interactions on behalf of Yu and her marriage to Ren. She learned to be a mother. Actually, I found her relationship with Yu a much more symbiotic relationship than the one with Ze as mentioned earlier and I found her redemption as mentioned before, in her relationship with Yu. Peony learned not only motherly love finally, but just plain love for another that was not selfish or envious.

I said before that I believe the dead have a lot of other things to do and learn than to have the time or freedom to mess around with the living any way they want. But along those lines, in this story, wasn't this the time when Peony did learn the many things she needed to learn? So in a sense, isnt it a similar idea? We learn in life by our interactins with others and so often that is tender and loving and symbiotic. But often it is also by our mistakes with others or unfortunately through times we hurt them. I think we still learn after this life, I just dont think we get to make our mistakes on the living still :smileywink:. But she did learn, of mother love, sister love, self love and also redemption because of it.

One of the things I would dearly love to learn after my death also, is that my mother really did love me. I,like Peony, would love to learn that mother love from the daughter's side. In my life, I have been a Ze for my mother's Peony in part II, someone to fulfill her desires, at times at a high cost to me. I would love to be my mother- Peony's Yu in the end. I hope, I have mother love for others and sister love, even if I am not either by blood. Women have a great capacity for many kinds of love but there is opposition in all things, so there is a dark side to that too that can come out in women,anyone for that matter. But I wish to think that most women seek the light of true mother love, sister love and all other forms that inspire, comfort and lift another's life. There is redemption for us all :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too



vivico1 wrote:

LisaSee wrote:
How does what happened during the Cataclysm change depending on who’s telling the story?


It changes in a couple of ways. Its different when the men tell it then when the women tell it. Its different when living fathers tell it and living mothers dont. And its very different when the dead tell it. If you hear the men tell the story of Grandmother for example, she died a most honorable death, committing suicide to keep pure from the enemy and so forth, so she is revered for that. The truth is, she didnt commit suicide, not in the way they meant. What they said about it was really about saving face for themselves as men, not about revering her. It was to cover their actions, nothing more really. Grandmother did commit suicide in one sense, she did what was expected of her, she died hiding not only her sons, but her husband who "wanted to eat a little longer" and she despised him for it. Peony would never have heard this in her life, only after death. The same with what happened to her mother. History, I imagine for the most part, would tell the men's version. Makes you wonder in one sense, if the men were so ashamed of what happened that they hid these events in stories of heroism of the women, did they then maybe have some real shame about that aspect of their culture and guilt for it? Baba seems to have. If so, maybe this is an idea that even the men might feel a need for change in, if they lived it but felt such remorse in it.




I like what Vivico said here about men writing history. There are those who say it's called history for a reason. It's "his story."
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too



vivico1 wrote:

LisaSee wrote:
Early in this discussion, Peony's mother took a real beating as being a bad mother. By now you know Peony's mother's story and how she really felt about her daughter. In what ways is mother love explored? How does it change from a mother’s or daughter’s perspective? What does Peony learn about mother love and in what ways does she experience it herself? What aspects of mother love still hold true for mothers and daughters today?


Early on, Peony's basic concept of mother love,was doing those things necessary to continue traditions and educate the daughters in what they must know in order to be presentable in society and as a head of household and as a wife. The foot binding, as painful an act as it was, was the mother love that was in that idea of mother love and pain being one. I don't think Peony knew of any other way mother love and pain could be considered. She learned tho. She learned many kinds of mother love. She learned the kind just mentioned, which is a part of what mother love is today, helping prepare daughters for those same things (not the binding of course but their futures).

She also learned so much more about mother love once she died. She learned of the love of her grandmother for her sons who she died for, her love for her daughter in law, Peony's mother. They were great friends and did many things together, things Peony never did with her mother or could even imagine doing. She learned the love of her mother and how much she loved her whole family to do what she did to save them during the cataclysm and then never mention it again. She learned of her mother's love for her in watching how much she grieved for Peony when she died and could hardly let go. She learned these sacrifices were also why mother love and pain were linked together, not just that mothers could inflict pain in the name of love to do those things necessary, but also could suffer greatly through personal sacrifice for her children and great pain at the lose of one. And she learned mother love was also the sacrifice of your wishes at times for what is best for the daughter. She learned this personally, finally, through her interactions on behalf of Yu and her marriage to Ren. She learned to be a mother. Actually, I found her relationship with Yu a much more symbiotic relationship than the one with Ze as mentioned earlier and I found her redemption as mentioned before, in her relationship with Yu. Peony learned not only motherly love finally, but just plain love for another that was not selfish or envious.

I said before that I believe the dead have a lot of other things to do and learn than to have the time or freedom to mess around with the living any way they want. But along those lines, in this story, wasn't this the time when Peony did learn the many things she needed to learn? So in a sense, isnt it a similar idea? We learn in life by our interactins with others and so often that is tender and loving and symbiotic. But often it is also by our mistakes with others or unfortunately through times we hurt them. I think we still learn after this life, I just dont think we get to make our mistakes on the living still :smileywink:. But she did learn, of mother love, sister love, self love and also redemption because of it.

One of the things I would dearly love to learn after my death also, is that my mother really did love me. I,like Peony, would love to learn that mother love from the daughter's side. In my life, I have been a Ze for my mother's Peony in part II, someone to fulfill her desires, at times at a high cost to me. I would love to be my mother- Peony's Yu in the end. I hope, I have mother love for others and sister love, even if I am not either by blood. Women have a great capacity for many kinds of love but there is opposition in all things, so there is a dark side to that too that can come out in women,anyone for that matter. But I wish to think that most women seek the light of true mother love, sister love and all other forms that inspire, comfort and lift another's life. There is redemption for us all :smileywink:




I think any generation or century we are in, it is difficult in some way for the Mothr and Daughter relationship.It is such a complicted matter , the characteristics of mother and daughter. I believe its always been a complicated scenio between these two. Why? i can't quite get the picture of why. But being so emotional,. sometimes we have thoughts in our heads, that we can't express and that is why the conflict develops between the mother and daughter. And will always be because we are a complicated emotional breed. And who makes the rules for us, that makes it that much more complicated(men)
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kiakar
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too



KPL wrote:
I sort of think that a lot of her actions were for her own fulfillment. In some ways, she seemed to be having a great time, and she was manipulating...once again in control. I also think she felt that she was contributing to Ren's happiness so I'm not really answering your question!!!




I really feel she wanted to believe she wss helping the girl because she loved chen so much. But she was just pretending inside she was. She was not really. She was fulfilling her self because she didnt have a chance with chen. I am glad she does realize it in the end. And tries to make amends.
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too



kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

LisaSee wrote:
Early in this discussion, Peony's mother took a real beating as being a bad mother. By now you know Peony's mother's story and how she really felt about her daughter. In what ways is mother love explored? How does it change from a mother’s or daughter’s perspective? What does Peony learn about mother love and in what ways does she experience it herself? What aspects of mother love still hold true for mothers and daughters today?


Early on, Peony's basic concept of mother love,was doing those things necessary to continue traditions and educate the daughters in what they must know in order to be presentable in society and as a head of household and as a wife. The foot binding, as painful an act as it was, was the mother love that was in that idea of mother love and pain being one. I don't think Peony knew of any other way mother love and pain could be considered. She learned tho. She learned many kinds of mother love. She learned the kind just mentioned, which is a part of what mother love is today, helping prepare daughters for those same things (not the binding of course but their futures).

She also learned so much more about mother love once she died. She learned of the love of her grandmother for her sons who she died for, her love for her daughter in law, Peony's mother. They were great friends and did many things together, things Peony never did with her mother or could even imagine doing. She learned the love of her mother and how much she loved her whole family to do what she did to save them during the cataclysm and then never mention it again. She learned of her mother's love for her in watching how much she grieved for Peony when she died and could hardly let go. She learned these sacrifices were also why mother love and pain were linked together, not just that mothers could inflict pain in the name of love to do those things necessary, but also could suffer greatly through personal sacrifice for her children and great pain at the lose of one. And she learned mother love was also the sacrifice of your wishes at times for what is best for the daughter. She learned this personally, finally, through her interactions on behalf of Yu and her marriage to Ren. She learned to be a mother. Actually, I found her relationship with Yu a much more symbiotic relationship than the one with Ze as mentioned earlier and I found her redemption as mentioned before, in her relationship with Yu. Peony learned not only motherly love finally, but just plain love for another that was not selfish or envious.

I said before that I believe the dead have a lot of other things to do and learn than to have the time or freedom to mess around with the living any way they want. But along those lines, in this story, wasn't this the time when Peony did learn the many things she needed to learn? So in a sense, isnt it a similar idea? We learn in life by our interactins with others and so often that is tender and loving and symbiotic. But often it is also by our mistakes with others or unfortunately through times we hurt them. I think we still learn after this life, I just dont think we get to make our mistakes on the living still :smileywink:. But she did learn, of mother love, sister love, self love and also redemption because of it.

One of the things I would dearly love to learn after my death also, is that my mother really did love me. I,like Peony, would love to learn that mother love from the daughter's side. In my life, I have been a Ze for my mother's Peony in part II, someone to fulfill her desires, at times at a high cost to me. I would love to be my mother- Peony's Yu in the end. I hope, I have mother love for others and sister love, even if I am not either by blood. Women have a great capacity for many kinds of love but there is opposition in all things, so there is a dark side to that too that can come out in women,anyone for that matter. But I wish to think that most women seek the light of true mother love, sister love and all other forms that inspire, comfort and lift another's life. There is redemption for us all :smileywink:




I think any generation or century we are in, it is difficult in some way for the Mothr and Daughter relationship.It is such a complicted matter , the characteristics of mother and daughter. I believe its always been a complicated scenio between these two. Why? i can't quite get the picture of why. But being so emotional,. sometimes we have thoughts in our heads, that we can't express and that is why the conflict develops between the mother and daughter. And will always be because we are a complicated emotional breed. And who makes the rules for us, that makes it that much more complicated(men)




Sometimes I think it's comlicated because we wish such big and wonderful things for our daughters. We want them to have everything that we had or and/or everything we didn't have. But just because we want that doesn't mean that that's what our daughters want. They need to grow up and find thir own paths. As a daughter myself, I know I did. Not suprisingly -- and I bet a lot of you will have had the same experience -- the older I've become, the more I've understood my mother and what she wanted for me. I've also come to want those things too. But back in the teen years --- look out!
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vivico1
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Please use page spoiler warnings too


LisaSee wrote:



Sometimes I think it's comlicated because we wish such big and wonderful things for our daughters. We want them to have everything that we had or and/or everything we didn't have. But just because we want that doesn't mean that that's what our daughters want. They need to grow up and find thir own paths. As a daughter myself, I know I did. Not suprisingly -- and I bet a lot of you will have had the same experience -- the older I've become, the more I've understood my mother and what she wanted for me. I've also come to want those things too. But back in the teen years --- look out!


There is the irony for me, here I am 50 and my mother and I are still so far apart in our desires and beliefs that even at this age, we have no common ground. BUT, when we look around us, we find other women, older, wiser than us. who we can have this bond with if we are lucky. If not we at least appreciate now, the commonality of desires, for ourselves and others.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Fozzie
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART III (Page 198 to end) Page 267

I had to laugh at myself. In the discussion of Part Two of the book, I commented that Peony killed Tan Ze. I believed what my narrator told me completely, without reservation. Big mistake! LOL!

On page 267, Tan Ze spoke to Peony and revealed:

"You didn't kill me. You didn't crush me. You didn't steal my breath. I stopped eating, and for once I had total control over my destiny. I wanted to starve the thing you put in my belly."

Lisa, one thing I really enjoyed about the book was how things were interpreted, and then found to be misinterpreted later in the book. Isn't that just how real life is?
Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
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