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kiakar
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70



Fozzie wrote:


seagate wrote:
"a mother's love" That brings up an important qurstion in my mind. Peony's mother , I am sure, treated her as she did out of concern and love. It was the manner of parenting at that time. I wonder if that manner had a positive or negative influence in Peony's life.



I found myself wondering the same thing. We readers have a very biased view of Peony's mother. I do feel that he mother's intentions were good, but I think that her mother had more of a negative influence on Peony. Isolating her in her room for so long ultimately killed her, I think.




I agree fully, with you, Laura. I think that is what did this to Peony. It definitly started her downward voyage into dispair.
Wordsmith
kiakar
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART ONE (THRU PAGE 95)Please use page spoiler warnings too



Fozzie wrote:


purplepaigeturner wrote:
Another subject Lisa writes beautifully is death. When Peony's father talks to her I am filling up with hope that he has saved her. How heartbreaking for him and for me, the reader that he was too late. And Peony's death scene is also heartbreaking and yet so lovely. As I was reading her dying thoughts I am saying no, no, this cannot be.



I, too, was filled with hope, only to slowly realize that there was no hope --- Peony was dying. :-(




I know I was thinking how could she be dying, the book is not anywhere over yet?? If willing it not to happen, it wouldn't have happened with me reading the book. ha. I mean,here was the man she really really loved and why couldn't she just looked when her father said look. But then when it turned to after her death. Wow! I knew this was a really unique book definitely in a relm I am not use to going.
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Wrighty
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70


bentley wrote:

LOL..That is ok Fozzie..you know I think you are right.. I did try to give the mother the benefit of the doubt; for example maybe she did not know any better, cultural times, her own upbringing etc..but the outcome is the same. And I believe her concern might have been misguided love but I am still reading. I also do not want to let her father off of the hook either. So often everybody looks at the mother without looking at the father's role or not. So I am trying to not make that mistake..but so far the mother seems to me mighty harsh.



It's hard to understand the reason for some of Peony's parents' actions since it's a different time and place. Her father has more freedom as in many cultures. Her mother seems so restricted in everything she does. I haven't finished the book yet so I know there is more to all of this but she has so many duties and yet so many limitations. She is the head of all of the women, a mother, a wife, but does she have any real control of her own? I wonder, if she could have made her own decisions instead of everything being about tradition, would Peony's outcome have been different? When she finally realizes how serious the situation is she cries and begs Peony to eat. That is the first time she shows any emotions of her own. I can't imagine allowing that to happen to my child but I also can't imagine living that way. It's just not within my experiences and I don't know enough about it.
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LisaSee
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70



Wrighty wrote:
. I can't imagine allowing that to happen to my child .




This has been coming up a lot. May I respectfully ask the group why -- if this blindness seems difficult to understand or believe -- do so many parents ignore what's happening with their daughters when they're starving themselves to death or why they ignore what's happening when their kids are flunking out of school or why they ignore the signs when their kids are seriously getting in to drugs? People don't want to see what they don't want to see, especially when it's right in front of them. Why? Sometimes because they feel powerless. Sometimes because the emotions are too overwhleming. Sometimes because they'd have to admit that they're failing as parents. Sometimes because they don't know what to do. There are probably a lot more reasons too.
Wordsmith
kiakar
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70




It's hard to understand the reason for some of Peony's parents' actions since it's a different time and place. Her father has more freedom as in many cultures. Her mother seems so restricted in everything she does. I haven't finished the book yet so I know there is more to all of this but she has so many duties and yet so many limitations. She is the head of all of the women, a mother, a wife, but does she have any real control of her own? I wonder, if she could have made her own decisions instead of everything being about tradition, would Peony's outcome have been different? When she finally realizes how serious the situation is she cries and begs Peony to eat. That is the first time she shows any emotions of her own. I can't imagine allowing that to happen to my child but I also can't imagine living that way. It's just not within my experiences and I don't know enough about it.








I agree Wrighty; The mother needs pity also. She was raised the same as she raised her daughter because that was the thing to do, that was the way you lived in China in that set time. Its like us, if we are raised baptists or Catholic, until we are grown and usually on our own, we do not make another decision for our way of life. And then, the Chinese didn't ever make decisiions for their selves because they were never really independent enought to see choices for their selves. It is alot of this I do not understand and can't comprehend how people can be taught all this stuff but that is the way of life. It seems foreign to us especially after decades have past.Even our way of life is so different from our ancestors of old. It has been an interesting read for what I understand of the book. And history can be interesting.
Wordsmith
kiakar
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70



LisaSee wrote:


Wrighty wrote:
. I can't imagine allowing that to happen to my child .




This has been coming up a lot. May I respectfully ask the group why -- if this blindness seems difficult to understand or believe -- do so many parents ignore what's happening with their daughters when they're starving themselves to death or why they ignore what's happening when their kids are flunking out of school or why they ignore the signs when their kids are seriously getting in to drugs? People don't want to see what they don't want to see, especially when it's right in front of them. Why? Sometimes because they feel powerless. Sometimes because the emotions are too overwhleming. Sometimes because they'd have to admit that they're failing as parents. Sometimes because they don't know what to do. There are probably a lot more reasons too.




Maybe because I have family history toward this teenage troubled age, I don't know if this was the reason, but I stayed on top of my children when they were teens and I focused alot on my grandkids that are going through the terrible teens. My granddaughter is 20 and soon to be 21 in October. She had a bad time of it too. She admitted wanting to end her life when she was sixteen. Her mother immediately took her to a dr and a councler and mild anti depressic was given for awhile until she came out of this realm.By both of us, her mother and I talking to her, we got her to realize that she needed help and then she admitted her feelings. Her symstoms were withdrawal, sadness and forever tired and listless. Her grades have always been really excellent and they never hurt any but we knew she wasn't acting normal. She is a Jr. in college now and has a entirely new outlook. My cousins son killed himself when he was fifteen and my brother in law killed himself at sixteen and also a friend's son. So I know that to be a teenager is like dealing with a crisis situation and I treated it with that with my children an dnow my grandchildren. My grandson who is sixteen is going through some times like Megan did at sixteen and I am on my daughter's last nerve to make sure she talks to him all the time about what is bothering him and whats not bothering him. I talk to him too when he visits.

I mentioned in an earlier post, a few years ago, I guess its been more than a few. Maybe ten or so, a special program was on T. V. about the reasons anxirexia was so valent. The cause and the cure was tried in a study of girls in a private hospital in Canada. The cause, not feeling connected as before as a younger child. Not realizing that even though they can do things for their selves and parents need not be that involved, they are missing that closeness, that special touch and so on that they had when at birth, even before and alot of attention even though sometimes its not gradual when it relents from being really close with a child. They missed this and felt it down deep in their souls. Its like saying a teen is a grownup in thought but still a child in materity. They need comfort,love,love, and more love. And closeness, feeling and so forth from their love ones. Anyway, the cure was to show love and caring, touching and so forth almost 24 hrs aday and gentle coaching to eat. And the study proved at that time to work. I haven't heard anything about it since then. Maybe even medical evidences have proven better ways or medications to prevent death as these girls were at the point of death also.
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bentley
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70



LisaSee wrote:


Wrighty wrote:
. I can't imagine allowing that to happen to my child .




This has been coming up a lot. May I respectfully ask the group why -- if this blindness seems difficult to understand or believe -- do so many parents ignore what's happening with their daughters when they're starving themselves to death or why they ignore what's happening when their kids are flunking out of school or why they ignore the signs when their kids are seriously getting in to drugs? People don't want to see what they don't want to see, especially when it's right in front of them. Why? Sometimes because they feel powerless. Sometimes because the emotions are too overwhleming. Sometimes because they'd have to admit that they're failing as parents. Sometimes because they don't know what to do. There are probably a lot more reasons too.




There are none so blind as those who will not see. I agree with you Lisa. It is easier to pretend that this too will pass; why not be a modern parent and be the son or daughter's best friend and not set boundaries or say that something is wrong. And I think having to admit that they are failing as parents is a prime reason too. And even if someone told them and if then they even believed it...even then most would not do anything at all until it was too late. Of course, there are many who are not like that at all; but some just want everything to be easy so that nothing is expected of them either. This is a very tough world right now...a lot different than in the time that Peony lived, but teenagers all have similar symptoms and go through a whole spectrum of emotions. Some things are very different; but others are so much the same. I also still do not want to beat up on the mother. She is just one of two parents and frankly in Peony's case..there was a small village around her. This whole community where Peony lived is at fault if there is any blame to go around. And when the end result is what it was..blame never brings back the person who has passed.
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Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70


bentley wrote:


LisaSee wrote:


Wrighty wrote:
. I can't imagine allowing that to happen to my child .




This has been coming up a lot. May I respectfully ask the group why -- if this blindness seems difficult to understand or believe -- do so many parents ignore what's happening with their daughters when they're starving themselves to death or why they ignore what's happening when their kids are flunking out of school or why they ignore the signs when their kids are seriously getting in to drugs? People don't want to see what they don't want to see, especially when it's right in front of them. Why? Sometimes because they feel powerless. Sometimes because the emotions are too overwhleming. Sometimes because they'd have to admit that they're failing as parents. Sometimes because they don't know what to do. There are probably a lot more reasons too.




There are none so blind as those who will not see. I agree with you Lisa. It is easier to pretend that this too will pass; why not be a modern parent and be the son or daughter's best friend and not set boundaries or say that something is wrong. And I think having to admit that they are failing as parents is a prime reason too. And even if someone told them and if then they even believed it...even then most would not do anything at all until it was too late. Of course, there are many who are not like that at all; but some just want everything to be easy so that nothing is expected of them either. This is a very tough world right now...a lot different than in the time that Peony lived, but teenagers all have similar symptoms and go through a whole spectrum of emotions. Some things are very different; but others are so much the same. I also still do not want to beat up on the mother. She is just one of two parents and frankly in Peony's case..there was a small village around her. This whole community where Peony lived is at fault if there is any blame to go around. And when the end result is what it was..blame never brings back the person who has passed.



When I said that I couldn't imagine that happening to my child I meant leaving them outside to die alone. I understand why they did it I just can't picture myself doing it. I do think it is easy to turn a blind eye to your own problems or to be the last to see it. As with any time period, some things get tougher and some things get easier. Some families just don't do enough and don't take enough responsibility with their children. You have to have a license to drive a car but you can have as many kids at any age as you want. We really need more parenting, family, money management, etc. classes for our kids. What Home Ec should be but can't. There are also the parents who do every thing right and something still goes wrong. They may have two kids raised the same way and one develops into a good person and the other doesn't. There are so many factors involved. Kiakar, you mentioned the suicide attempts in your family. Could there be a history of depression in your family? You all may be more prone to it and that is why there are so many incidents of it. Has that ever been brought up by any doctors or counselors? I live in a small town where every one knows each other and the kids can't get away with much without someone finding out and telling their parents. I love it. I have three teenagers and I am scared to death about raising them right and keeping them out of trouble. So far so good but knock wood. My oldest just went off to college and that is really terrifying. I want him to love it and do well but I've just sent my baby off to live on his own! How did my mom ever do it? I thought I was so grown up at 18.
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purplepaigeturner
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Re: Peony and Willow, pages 67-70

I do have to agree with Lisa about the "blindness" that parents have. It is a sad fact and I see it happening all the time. I come into contact with women who suffer anexoria and one of the things they all say is that their parents did not seem to notice they were not eating and getting thin. We see (me included) what we want to see and ignore the rest.
paige turner
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cindersue
Posts: 323
Registered: ‎04-02-2007
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Re: DISCUSSIONS FOR PART ONE (THRU PAGE 95)Please use page spoiler warnings too



LisaSee wrote:
The ideal sized bound foot was 7 centimeters or about three inches. The way to visualize the pretty bound foot is to look at your own thumb. It was about one inch wide and three inches long.




Oh sick!
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Wrighty
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foot binding


cindersue wrote:


LisaSee wrote:
The ideal sized bound foot was 7 centimeters or about three inches. The way to visualize the pretty bound foot is to look at your own thumb. It was about one inch wide and three inches long.




Oh sick!




Tht is so amazing to me that the foot becomes so small. I did see some of the photos. Since the bones are broken and then the foot is basically folded in the middle, approximately how high does that make the foot, from where the arch was to the top of the foot? I'm just curious because I can't imagine what my size 8s would look like bound up. I don't think they would be described as pretty or delicate. :smileywink:
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vivico1
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Re: foot binding


Wrighty wrote:

cindersue wrote:


LisaSee wrote:
The ideal sized bound foot was 7 centimeters or about three inches. The way to visualize the pretty bound foot is to look at your own thumb. It was about one inch wide and three inches long.




Oh sick!




Tht is so amazing to me that the foot becomes so small. I did see some of the photos. Since the bones are broken and then the foot is basically folded in the middle, approximately how high does that make the foot, from where the arch was to the top of the foot? I'm just curious because I can't imagine what my size 8s would look like bound up. I don't think they would be described as pretty or delicate. :smileywink:


Wrighty, I dont think if your feet were bound at the age they did this that they would have grown to a size 8 that was bound. I think crushing the bones and vessels in such a way to make them turn under, and binding them would stunt the growth after that. I am not sure but sure seems like it. I was thinking the other day about my friend in OKC, she is only about 5'5" or 5'6", I know she is shorter than me anyway and she wears a size 10 wide! I thought about what they would call her feet (I am an 8 - 8 1/2) and even I tease her about her boats, (shoes) LOL. Good to have friends you can tease each other about things like that and not be offended, because you know enough about each other to always have a comeback :smileywink:.
Hey cindersue? What size bowling shoe would that 7 centimeter very vertically thick foot need? hehe
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Author
LisaSee
Posts: 139
Registered: ‎08-24-2007
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Re: foot binding



Wrighty wrote:

cindersue wrote:


LisaSee wrote:
The ideal sized bound foot was 7 centimeters or about three inches. The way to visualize the pretty bound foot is to look at your own thumb. It was about one inch wide and three inches long.




Oh sick!




Tht is so amazing to me that the foot becomes so small. I did see some of the photos. Since the bones are broken and then the foot is basically folded in the middle, approximately how high does that make the foot, from where the arch was to the top of the foot? I'm just curious because I can't imagine what my size 8s would look like bound up. I don't think they would be described as pretty or delicate. :smileywink:




You have to remember that the Chinese are smaller to begin with. And it was in the past when everyone was a lot smaller. No one had size 8 feet back then.
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vivico1
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Re: foot binding


LisaSee wrote:




You have to remember that the Chinese are smaller to begin with. And it was in the past when everyone was a lot smaller. No one had size 8 feet back then.


You know, thats true and I hadnt thought about that. But I remember in college, we were talking about ancient Rome and how it was portrayed in the movies, and we were talking about the Roman Soldiers and Gladiators. The professor said, you know how big these guys are in the movies, and strong, he said but in ancient Rome during this time period what we were really talking about were 5'5"-5'7" Italian guys on the average! This was their average height and their swords were littler and the bigger ones were always two handed swords, they could not lift them with one hand! Kind of makes you think twice about the Gladiator movies now doesnt it lol. Wasn't really like Russell Crowe, oh la la :smileywink:, was more like Sonny Bono LOL!
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Inspired Correspondent
Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: foot binding


LisaSee wrote:
You have to remember that the Chinese are smaller to begin with. And it was in the past when everyone was a lot smaller. No one had size 8 feet back then.



I thought of that when you mentioned they were only about 3 inches. It would be much easier to achieve that when you're tinier to begin with.
Author
LisaSee
Posts: 139
Registered: ‎08-24-2007
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Re: foot binding



vivico1 wrote:

LisaSee wrote:




You have to remember that the Chinese are smaller to begin with. And it was in the past when everyone was a lot smaller. No one had size 8 feet back then.


You know, thats true and I hadnt thought about that. But I remember in college, we were talking about ancient Rome and how it was portrayed in the movies, and we were talking about the Roman Soldiers and Gladiators. The professor said, you know how big these guys are in the movies, and strong, he said but in ancient Rome during this time period what we were really talking about were 5'5"-5'7" Italian guys on the average! This was their average height and their swords were littler and the bigger ones were always two handed swords, they could not lift them with one hand! Kind of makes you think twice about the Gladiator movies now doesnt it lol. Wasn't really like Russell Crowe, oh la la :smileywink:, was more like Sonny Bono LOL!




Isn't Russell Crow pretty short? I think he's something like 5' 8". Tom Cruise is tiny, I hear. He's something like 5' 6". They just look bigger on the big screen.
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cindersue
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Registered: ‎04-02-2007
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Re: foot binding

Hey cindersue? What size bowling shoe would that 7 centimeter very vertically thick foot need? hehe




I know I wouldn't be able to bowl. I'd be falling flat on my face if my feet were bound. I'm glad they don't do that anymore. :smileywink:
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vivico1
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Re: foot binding


cindersue wrote:
Hey cindersue? What size bowling shoe would that 7 centimeter very vertically thick foot need? hehe




I know I wouldn't be able to bowl. I'd be falling flat on my face if my feet were bound. I'm glad they don't do that anymore. :smileywink:


I am not so sure in some areas that they dont still do it, dunno. I am still trying to figure out why ghosts cant make tight turns LOLOL. Guess if you want them to really stay out of your business you could live in a maze.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: foot binding


vivico1 wrote:

cindersue wrote:
Hey cindersue? What size bowling shoe would that 7 centimeter very vertically thick foot need? hehe




I know I wouldn't be able to bowl. I'd be falling flat on my face if my feet were bound. I'm glad they don't do that anymore. :smileywink:


I am not so sure in some areas that they dont still do it, dunno. I am still trying to figure out why ghosts cant make tight turns LOLOL. Guess if you want them to really stay out of your business you could live in a maze.



That one got me too. They must not have good brakes or something and they slide right past corners. :smileyindifferent: :smileyhappy: :smileyvery-happy:
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: foot binding



Wrighty wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

cindersue wrote:
Hey cindersue? What size bowling shoe would that 7 centimeter very vertically thick foot need? hehe




I know I wouldn't be able to bowl. I'd be falling flat on my face if my feet were bound. I'm glad they don't do that anymore. :smileywink:


I am not so sure in some areas that they dont still do it, dunno. I am still trying to figure out why ghosts cant make tight turns LOLOL. Guess if you want them to really stay out of your business you could live in a maze.



That one got me too. They must not have good brakes or something and they slide right past corners. :smileyindifferent: :smileyhappy: :smileyvery-happy:




Maybe those sheets are too full around and keep the ghost from seeing so they crash instead of getting around the corners.
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