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vivico1
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FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

LisaSee asked:
My question may have gotten lost in the other responses, so I'd like to float it out here too. The Chinese believe in fate, destiny, and fortune. What do you think is the difference between them?

(Lisa wanted these on threads so we could all see them even if some are not finished with the book yet, so I, with her permission, am just posting them here for us. They are also on PART III but we can use this thread for discussion for everyone. If you have posted to this question on part III please feel free to add it to this thread, so others not there can join in.)
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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seagate
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

Wihout looking up the explanations -off the top of my head - Fate is usually a tragic thing. Peony's death would be her fate.
Destiny would be the final outcome - How Peony acted in her "spirit" was her destiny . Fortune is the good that comes to a person in the form of happiness . In the end Peony did claim her fortune.She was happy and at peace . Now to the dictionary to see if I am even close.
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vivico1
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE


seagate wrote:
Wihout looking up the explanations -off the top of my head - Fate is usually a tragic thing. Peony's death would be her fate.
Destiny would be the final outcome - How Peony acted in her "spirit" was her destiny . Fortune is the good that comes to a person in the form of happiness . In the end Peony did claim her fortune.She was happy and at peace . Now to the dictionary to see if I am even close.


lol, to the dictionary :smileywink: Hey, Seagate, how do you think these play a role in your own life or do they?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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seagate
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

Sure- all three play an important role in my life. The most important part is the role I play in determining how they turn out. I don't believe in predestination nor leave it up to fate amd destiny.We take a major part in forming our own life. Was I destined to have seven children? I did and it turned out they are my fortune. Did a Supreme Power have a role in this? Was I accepting of it? I believe "yes".OUr free will makes the difference. I often wonder if Robert Frost was referring to this in THE Road NOT TAKEN and "that has made the difference."
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LisaSee
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



seagate wrote:
Wihout looking up the explanations -off the top of my head - Fate is usually a tragic thing. Peony's death would be her fate.
Destiny would be the final outcome - How Peony acted in her "spirit" was her destiny . Fortune is the good that comes to a person in the form of happiness . In the end Peony did claim her fortune.She was happy and at peace . Now to the dictionary to see if I am even close.




I really like your explanations. But isn't there bad fortune too? Maybe not in this book but in life? While I agree with you about fate -- that it's usually tragic -- what about the idea of being fated to fall in love, get married, become president, all things that supposedly have a good ending?
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



seagate wrote:
Sure- all three play an important role in my life. The most important part is the role I play in determining how they turn out. I don't believe in predestination nor leave it up to fate amd destiny.We take a major part in forming our own life. Was I destined to have seven children? I did and it turned out they are my fortune. Did a Supreme Power have a role in this? Was I accepting of it? I believe "yes".OUr free will makes the difference. I often wonder if Robert Frost was referring to this in THE Road NOT TAKEN and "that has made the difference."




LOVE THIS!!!
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



vivico1 wrote:
LisaSee asked:
My question may have gotten lost in the other responses, so I'd like to float it out here too. The Chinese believe in fate, destiny, and fortune. What do you think is the difference between them?



This is a tough question because I think the differences between the ideas are subtle.

I would say that fortune is luck, be it good or bad.

Fate is how your life ends up. In other words, the summation of everything that brings you to the current state of you is your fate.

Destiny is where you are meant to go in life.

Where you are meant to go (your destiny) is not necessarily where you end up (your fate)

Now I am going to check the dictionary too! LOL!
Laura

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bentley
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

[ Edited ]

Fozzie wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
LisaSee asked:
My question may have gotten lost in the other responses, so I'd like to float it out here too. The Chinese believe in fate, destiny, and fortune. What do you think is the difference between them?



This is a tough question because I think the differences between the ideas are subtle.

I would say that fortune is luck, be it good or bad.

Fate is how your life ends up. In other words, the summation of everything that brings you to the current state of you is your fate.

Destiny is where you are meant to go in life.

Where you are meant to go (your destiny) is not necessarily where you end up (your fate)

Now I am going to check the dictionary too! LOL!




I do not believe in predestination because I believe that we all determine our own fate. Granted some folks are luckier than others and some seem more fortunate. Does that mean that these people have better fortune than others, maybe some would say so. I do not believe that we are fated to be miserable or happy; I believe we determine what happens to us and how we end up. The Chinese version is different and they believe like others do that we have a certain karma in life. In fact, the Chinese believe in fate improvement through many different methods...such as choosing particular favorable numbers, to wearing specific symbols, as well as praying to the gods and their ancestors. I think most of us believe in God and we hope that he can help answer our prayers; but when it comes to getting us out of a mess or into a great job or new life, most of what we must do is up to us. Some folks talk of destiny as something that was meant to happen for you..like your destiny was to become a great pianist. I am not sure that I believe in that either. Different folks have different talents and maybe these talents destine folks to certain greatness. Maybe it is just the luck of the draw..some folks have been given a better hand than others..is that fate, destiny, good fortune or bad luck, or simply good or back karma. Who knows. It is funny but the chinese do not have daily horoscopes in newspapers etc....they think that karma and destiny and fate are long term conditions (lol)...who knows maybe they are.

The Chinese also believe that there is a grand scheme in life and that we all play certain roles already preassigned to us. Chinese fatalism claims that things are already decided for us at the time we are born. Opportunities are considered gifts from the heavens but hard work can make things better and/or cushion the effects of your fate or the person can benefit from these same opportunities.

The Chinese also believe that there is a blueprint of a person's life and that is their fate but that they can become prepared for each turn of events and prepare the circumstances to be more advantageous.

Message Edited by bentley on 09-24-2007 08:40 PM
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vivico1
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

Interesting question and I agree, some very subtle differences. Fate, I equate with something inevitable, its just going to happen. The only thing I really really believe is fate, is death! Thats pretty certain lol and cant change that. Well you may do something to bring it on, like Peony's not eating eventually brought it on, but death itself is not something any of us can escape, its our fate to die, we cant change that part of life.

Destiny, well I find it an interesting word. I also do not believe in predestination,things being set before we even started this life. But like I said before, I don't believe in coincidences either. What I do believe in is that people can be foreordained, not predestined and there is a difference. You can be foreordained to do or be something in this life, maybe even be a great pianist, or a leader, or even meet the love of your life BUT even if you are foreordained to do so and put in the right place for this to happen, you still have your own free agency to do with your life what you will! So you may not be that pianist, you may not want to do what it takes to be that leader tho it is in you to do so. Having to act for ourselves is what is different than being predestined. I do not think its a coincidence that we are all in here at the same time, but I don't think what we make of it is set in stone. I do know, something, someone in here has felt or said or shared, will be remembered by someone else somewhere down the line in their lives and maybe mean something even then. I like the idea of "being destined to be friends", or "destined to fall in love" or as Lisa said, "fated to fall in love" but I dont believe its set in stone that we will. I think we may be put in the path of those that we will be friends with or love and then its up to us to make it happen.

Fate. Well fate could be just good luck or bad luck. But then again, we make our luck. Some people seem to have so much luck in their lives and some seem to have nothing but bad luck. I dont know, probably if you look back into the pattern of someone who seems to have all good luck, you will find that they tend to put themselves into situations and act and react in certain ways that tend to make things happen for them in a positive way. But does that mean people bring on their own bad luck? Well yeah sometimes! You know we have all looked at , at least one person in our life and thought, well of course that happened to them, looked what they did? And I am not talking about people getting sick, or dying, or hurt, or starving kids in some near or far off place , or little girls having their feet bound and hurt. Did these people do something do deserve it? NO, we just all live in a world were things of all kinds happen. I hear some people say, well if God really cared or was there, why would he let such things happen? I was even asked one time by a women who was so hurt and angry that her niece had been sexually abused and saying she didnt deserve it (which of course it true, good grief!) but she was angry, even at God and said to me, nearly yelling, "Did my neice deserve this?? Did you???" I said, no, neither of us did but we live in a world where all mankind has agency to act for good or bad. Did your niece do something to bring this on? Of course not, she was just a very little girl who unfortunately crossed paths with someone who used their free agency to hurt someone. She was a very religious person and really having a hard time with this, who wouldnt? I said, you do believe God gave us all free agency to act dont you? She said yes. I said and you believe because we have that agency and can sometimes make horrendous decisions, Christ died for us, for our sins, so that if we repent, through His actions we are forgiven and clean again, that He HAD to die to save us from ourselves basically right? She said of course. I said well God loves your neice and me, and I am sure he cried when we were both hurt, I know he did, I KNOW he did. But if he stopped all men from doing bad things, then Christ died for nothing. Either he would have to take all our free agency and we would be nothing but puppets, or EVERYONE, not just those people who did this to your neice and I , but ALL of us, would never be forgiven because there would never have been an atonement. So just know, He loves your neice very much, he cries for the innocent who are hurt and will find a much harsher punishment for those who do such things and dont repent than you ever could. But He loves us all enough to give us agency and He cant take that away. I am sorry so sorry your nieces path crossed with this man's. But right now she just needs to know you love her, she DIDN'T do anything wrong and she also needs to know GOD still loves her and that she will get from you, from knowing that you believe that too, that God loves her and never turned his back on her. Thats why you are here, to help her know that. She thought about it and calmed down. I dont know what happened. It was the only time I meet the woman, she was with her cousin who I did know and who had told her about me before and we were all just talking. I never asked about her when she was gone either.

Fortune.Well after my last part there was so long AGAIN, let me just say, I think we make our own fortune, good or bad. But we can find ourselves in fortunate situations, and hopefully will take advantage of them.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Fozzie
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



bentley wrote:

I do not believe in predestination because I believe that we all determine our own fate. Granted some folks are luckier than others and some seem more fortunate.



Now there is a concise explanation!

As I was reading what you wrote about the Chinese beliefs and customs regarding fate, fortune, and destiny, I was reminded of Snow Flower and the Secret Fan and the practices I read about in the book regarding matching girls to be sisters and matching a husband and wife.
Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
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bentley
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

[ Edited ]

Fozzie wrote:


bentley wrote:

I do not believe in predestination because I believe that we all determine our own fate. Granted some folks are luckier than others and some seem more fortunate.



Now there is a concise explanation!

As I was reading what you wrote about the Chinese beliefs and customs regarding fate, fortune, and destiny, I was reminded of Snow Flower and the Secret Fan and the practices I read about in the book regarding matching girls to be sisters and matching a husband and wife.





I have not read SF. What practices were you referencing from the book?

Message Edited by bentley on 09-25-2007 08:17 AM
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Fozzie
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



bentley wrote:

I have not read SF. What practices were you referencing from the book?





I wish I could remember more details, but the process of matching a girl with another girl to be friends for life (sames) and the ceremonies that surround it were interesting. Also, the process of matching a boy and girl to be married and the marriage ceremony were also described.
Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
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LisaSee
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE

This is all so interesting to me. When I posed the question, I wasn't thinking so much about Peony in Love (although these things certainly are important in the story), but rather the new book I'm working on. I'm thinking of dividing the three secitons of the book into Fate, Destiny, and Fortune. You all have really inspired me to explore these ideas. THANK YOU!!! Look for your screen names in the acknowledgements. (If you want your real names, then you should probably e-mail them to me through my website. I know some of them already. And of course, you may not want an acknowledgement.)
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Fozzie
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



LisaSee wrote:
This is all so interesting to me. When I posed the question, I wasn't thinking so much about Peony in Love (although these things certainly are important in the story), but rather the new book I'm working on. I'm thinking of dividing the three secitons of the book into Fate, Destiny, and Fortune. You all have really inspired me to explore these ideas. THANK YOU!!! Look for your screen names in the acknowledgements. (If you want your real names, then you should probably e-mail them to me through my website. I know some of them already. And of course, you may not want an acknowledgement.)



And I thought just talking with an author was great, but the possibility of an acknowledgement makes me almost fall out of my chair!!! How exciting!!! No pressure to include me (seriously), but if you choose to do so, you can just call me Laura. Fozzie would be too weird!
Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
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vivico1
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE


Fozzie wrote:


LisaSee wrote:
This is all so interesting to me. When I posed the question, I wasn't thinking so much about Peony in Love (although these things certainly are important in the story), but rather the new book I'm working on. I'm thinking of dividing the three secitons of the book into Fate, Destiny, and Fortune. You all have really inspired me to explore these ideas. THANK YOU!!! Look for your screen names in the acknowledgements. (If you want your real names, then you should probably e-mail them to me through my website. I know some of them already. And of course, you may not want an acknowledgement.)



And I thought just talking with an author was great, but the possibility of an acknowledgement makes me almost fall out of my chair!!! How exciting!!! No pressure to include me (seriously), but if you choose to do so, you can just call me Laura. Fozzie would be too weird!


yeah but we would sure know WHICH laura it was wouldnt we hehe :smileywink:
Vivian
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cindersue
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



Fozzie wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
LisaSee asked:
My question may have gotten lost in the other responses, so I'd like to float it out here too. The Chinese believe in fate, destiny, and fortune. What do you think is the difference between them?



This is a tough question because I think the differences between the ideas are subtle.

I would say that fortune is luck, be it good or bad.

Fate is how your life ends up. In other words, the summation of everything that brings you to the current state of you is your fate.

Destiny is where you are meant to go in life.

Where you are meant to go (your destiny) is not necessarily where you end up (your fate)

Now I am going to check the dictionary too! LOL!




Well put, Laura. Many people think of fortune as wealth, as in money. But it's more than that. My children, my family can be my fortune, happiness, friendships. I like the other explanations too. Now I'm going to see what the dictionary says, too. :smileywink:
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kiakar
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



cindersue wrote:


Fozzie wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
LisaSee asked:
My question may have gotten lost in the other responses, so I'd like to float it out here too. The Chinese believe in fate, destiny, and fortune. What do you think is the difference between them?



This is a tough question because I think the differences between the ideas are subtle.

I would say that fortune is luck, be it good or bad.

Fate is how your life ends up. In other words, the summation of everything that brings you to the current state of you is your fate.

Destiny is where you are meant to go in life.

Where you are meant to go (your destiny) is not necessarily where you end up (your fate)

Now I am going to check the dictionary too! LOL!




Well put, Laura. Many people think of fortune as wealth, as in money. But it's more than that. My children, my family can be my fortune, happiness, friendships. I like the other explanations too. Now I'm going to see what the dictionary says, too. :smileywink:




Fortune I have always felt has alot of meanings. You are fortunate if you are happy with what , means whatever makes you happy. I mean truly happy, not just comfortable in the moment. But down deep in your soul. Fate is where you end up in life but also I believe you can have a say so in that fate though. Destiny is where you go and what you become whether its your truest destination or just one passing through.
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cindersue
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Re: FATE, DESTINY AND FORTUNE



kiakar wrote:


cindersue wrote:


Fozzie wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
LisaSee asked:
My question may have gotten lost in the other responses, so I'd like to float it out here too. The Chinese believe in fate, destiny, and fortune. What do you think is the difference between them?



This is a tough question because I think the differences between the ideas are subtle.

I would say that fortune is luck, be it good or bad.

Fate is how your life ends up. In other words, the summation of everything that brings you to the current state of you is your fate.

Destiny is where you are meant to go in life.

Where you are meant to go (your destiny) is not necessarily where you end up (your fate)

Now I am going to check the dictionary too! LOL!




Well put, Laura. Many people think of fortune as wealth, as in money. But it's more than that. My children, my family can be my fortune, happiness, friendships. I like the other explanations too. Now I'm going to see what the dictionary says, too. :smileywink:




Fortune I have always felt has alot of meanings. You are fortunate if you are happy with what , means whatever makes you happy. I mean truly happy, not just comfortable in the moment. But down deep in your soul. Fate is where you end up in life but also I believe you can have a say so in that fate though. Destiny is where you go and what you become whether its your truest destination or just one passing through.




I agree! :smileywink:
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