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KPL
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KPL
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎09-04-2007
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Re: Rituals of Death

Lisa See wrote:
Everyone has written such interesting things here. As a writer, I hope to inspire emotions -- good and bad ones. But most important, I hope that my stories inspire to think -- about themselves, about others, about the human condition, about how we've changed or not changed, about spirituality, about history, about love, about women, about tradition and how it can help us and hinder us.

..................................................


Lisa, your stories are such an inspiration and certainly a cause for thinking and exploring. I think Peony is a great vehicle for both investigating cultural rituals as well as soul searching.

As I read it, I found myself relating to things I'd seen so many years ago in my own life: the teen-age drama queen who attached herself to pop figures or characters in a movie or a novel, the stubbornness, the frustrated parents, etcetera.

I thought about so many things in the story of Peony that would have/could have been different, "if only...." I think that's so true as we go through our own daily routines, maybe rituals, without giving thought to much of it. I honestly think that, for having read this book, I'm trying to be a little nicer to people by really listening to them as they reveal something either through words or actions that could easily be ignored.

On a less personal level, your books absolutely "drive me" to explore the backgrounds of the plot: in Snowflower" the nu shu writings (I loved learning about what they were and the way they were discovered in the belongings of the woman during the Cultural Revolution) the customs of matching, of the old sames, and of course footbinding. Here of course we again have the footbinding, but I'm futher intrigued by the afterworld, the Viewing Terrace (is that maybe a little like Purgatory?) the death rituals, etc. Thank goodness we have Google, right?

I appreciate your investigations which have enabled you to relate so beautifully a story that is so current, yet so far away in time. And above all, I appreciate the fact that your writings definitely have widened my horizons and made me think.
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Pat_T
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎09-05-2007
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Re: Rituals of Death

I remember I was stunned when Peony died. I think I realized what was happening to her the same time Peony did. I just couldn't believe it. But I don't see any reason to blame anyone in her family for such a string of tragic events. They were all grieving a sudden death of a child so soon before what should have been a happy occasion. Peony saw herself as loved and says her parents adored her and made sure she was highly educated. I see nothing in the story to indicate her parents did not want only the best for her. That being said,I have the impression Peony "fell between the cracks" because it was an unusual situation; she was on the verge of her wedding and so didn't seem to belong to either family. Rereading pages 112-113, although Tan was the obvious candidate to dot the tablet, Ren was asked to do it, but was overcome with grief and ran from the room, Mama talked her husband into letting her do it, but couldn't either because of her grief. The father left for the capital and the servant Shao took the tablet from Peony's mother against her will by telling her she would get the father to do it because it was his duty. Then Shao put the tablet away in a storage room thinking she was saving her mistress trouble. I don't see how this can be said to be any one person's fault.

The second part of the book seems sadly ironic to be because we see Peony observing and commenting on events, again with very limited ability to control any of them. On the one hand, this "ghost story" is the fiction part of the story for me; yet, it's hard to see Peony's fate get even worse after death! Just when I thought things couldn't get any worse- they did!
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LisaSee
Posts: 139
Registered: ‎08-24-2007
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Re: Rituals of Death



KPL wrote:
Lisa See wrote:
Everyone has written such interesting things here. As a writer, I hope to inspire emotions -- good and bad ones. But most important, I hope that my stories inspire to think -- about themselves, about others, about the human condition, about how we've changed or not changed, about spirituality, about history, about love, about women, about tradition and how it can help us and hinder us.

..................................................


Lisa, your stories are such an inspiration and certainly a cause for thinking and exploring. I think Peony is a great vehicle for both investigating cultural rituals as well as soul searching.

As I read it, I found myself relating to things I'd seen so many years ago in my own life: the teen-age drama queen who attached herself to pop figures or characters in a movie or a novel, the stubbornness, the frustrated parents, etcetera.

I thought about so many things in the story of Peony that would have/could have been different, "if only...." I think that's so true as we go through our own daily routines, maybe rituals, without giving thought to much of it. I honestly think that, for having read this book, I'm trying to be a little nicer to people by really listening to them as they reveal something either through words or actions that could easily be ignored.

On a less personal level, your books absolutely "drive me" to explore the backgrounds of the plot: in Snowflower" the nu shu writings (I loved learning about what they were and the way they were discovered in the belongings of the woman during the Cultural Revolution) the customs of matching, of the old sames, and of course footbinding. Here of course we again have the footbinding, but I'm futher intrigued by the afterworld, the Viewing Terrace (is that maybe a little like Purgatory?) the death rituals, etc. Thank goodness we have Google, right?

I appreciate your investigations which have enabled you to relate so beautifully a story that is so current, yet so far away in time. And above all, I appreciate the fact that your writings definitely have widened my horizons and made me think.




I'm so glad to read all this. And I'm delighted you like all the research I do. Today I'm treating myself with an afternoon at the UCLA Research Library. I've been playing a bit with my new book and am really looking forward to spending a day in the stacks. I never know what I'll find or what will inspire me.
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Fozzie
Posts: 2,404
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death

I relished every word of the second section of reading. I found the beliefs and practices about death and the afterworld fascinating. And now I completely understand the ancestor tablet!

On a more serious note, this second section was an emotional one. Peony’s observations, which led to discoveries about her family, and the emotional despair she then felt were palpable.

I did not find myself caught up in feelings about the way women were treated. I take the time and place of a novel as a given, so to speak. Whether we modern people like it or not, that is the way things were. I found myself caught up in the emotions of the characters: Peony’s despair, Ren’s melancholy, Peony’s mother’s remorse, and Peony’s father’s almost indifference.

I thought the idea of Peony meeting her grandmother and spending time on the Viewing Terrace was wonderful. I just realized, it reminds me a bit of A Christmas Carol when Ebenezer Scrooge views the past present and future.
Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
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vivico1
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Re: Rituals of Death


Fozzie wrote:
I relished every word of the second section of reading. I found the beliefs and practices about death and the afterworld fascinating. And now I completely understand the ancestor tablet!

On a more serious note, this second section was an emotional one. Peony’s observations, which led to discoveries about her family, and the emotional despair she then felt were palpable.

I did not find myself caught up in feelings about the way women were treated. I take the time and place of a novel as a given, so to speak. Whether we modern people like it or not, that is the way things were. I found myself caught up in the emotions of the characters: Peony’s despair, Ren’s melancholy, Peony’s mother’s remorse, and Peony’s father’s almost indifference.

I thought the idea of Peony meeting her grandmother and spending time on the Viewing Terrace was wonderful. I just realized, it reminds me a bit of A Christmas Carol when Ebenezer Scrooge views the past present and future.


Fozzie, I find this very interesting. This is a novel, but how the women were treated was real. You could feel for the characters feelings (which is easy to do with even mythical creatures in novels and such) but you are through part II of the book and truely have had no feelings about the way women were treated, just because ...thats the way things were? I mean, there are great characters in this book that take you along with them but where they go is defined by how they were treated as women. You had no feelings about this? Not even the truth of the cataclysm?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death


LisaSee wrote:
Women didn't really fight it back then. How could they? They were so much a part of the system themselves. They believed in the system. They were the ones who bound their daughters' feet, for example. They were the ones who gave their lives up for their husbands and sons or committed suicide rather than bring disgrace on their families. I guess you could say it was a kind of society brainwashing where everyone was going along with the status quo.

What was unique to me about this particular period in Chinese history is that women did break away in different ways. The loveisck maidens were rebelling, even though we have a hard time understanding that or the outcome. The women in the Banana Garden Club -- I don't think we've gotten to them yet -- certainly broke the usual pattern and were respected for what they did.



That's true Lisa. The women didn't fight back but I would think many of them didn't feel a need to. Tradition dictated very specific stations in life and death and that is how they were suppose to live. It was the proper thing to do. The women who didn't follow tradition were breaking the rules. Even if it was to better themselves or society, or even to save lives, there were severe punishments. I think that every woman who sacrificed herself in this way was offering a gift to the women of the future. We owe so much of who we are and what we do to them. Their courage allows us so many freedoms and encourages and inspires us to seek our own way. We may have a few traditions to bend or break ourselves. :smileywink:
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vivico1
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Re: Rituals of Death

[ Edited ]

Wrighty wrote:

LisaSee wrote:
Women didn't really fight it back then. How could they? They were so much a part of the system themselves. They believed in the system. They were the ones who bound their daughters' feet, for example. They were the ones who gave their lives up for their husbands and sons or committed suicide rather than bring disgrace on their families. I guess you could say it was a kind of society brainwashing where everyone was going along with the status quo.

What was unique to me about this particular period in Chinese history is that women did break away in different ways. The loveisck maidens were rebelling, even though we have a hard time understanding that or the outcome. The women in the Banana Garden Club -- I don't think we've gotten to them yet -- certainly broke the usual pattern and were respected for what they did.



That's true Lisa. The women didn't fight back but I would think many of them didn't feel a need to. Tradition dictated very specific stations in life and death and that is how they were suppose to live. It was the proper thing to do. The women who didn't follow tradition were breaking the rules. Even if it was to better themselves or society, or even to save lives, there were severe punishments. I think that every woman who sacrificed herself in this way was offering a gift to the women of the future. We owe so much of who we are and what we do to them. Their courage allows us so many freedoms and encourages and inspires us to seek our own way. We may have a few traditions to bend or break ourselves. :smileywink:


You are so right, wrighty. This line of discussion made me think of something else today too. In some things we have swung too much the other way. Very often today, women are put down others who want to have a more "traditional" life of staying at home and having children and taking care of the home. And the thing is, its never the men who put them down for this, its always other women. Other women will try to make them feel "less than" by not chosing to go out and "work, contribute and be free", when being a mother at home, a good caring mother, raising other human beings in hopes they will be good people too, is about as noble (and hard) a profession as it gets.

I think that lending that view back to Peony's time , and her mother's and grandmother's, I guess to me, its not so much about did the women just go along with this or what? (my initial reaction I think) But rather, if you think about it, there was a need for both, the traditional women who carried on the cultures of their families and taught the children, the girls because after all, these girls had to live in a society in which this WAS the norm or expected. How to live in one particular culture is extremely important to learn growing up. Isnt it here and now? So our kids know rights and wrong, good and bad, how to succeed,etc?

And then on the other hand, there was a great need to have women such as the writers and others, who would step outside the box and redefine their roles with the many possibilities that could bring. They were women pioneers for all woman and in every generation. Women who have stood up, in whatever way they chose that was uplifting, not destructive but uplifting to other women, have helped us today in many many ways. So really, it wasnt about which way was right or wrong, who was doing "better things" as a woman, as much as it was about the choice to be either. There wasn't much of that then, and where there is no choice, there is rebellion (this goes back to that quote on here somewhere from Lisa about...all things not at peace, will cry out...I know thats not it exactly but I cant find it without losing this page now, but you know what i mean). The lovesick girls cried out, rebelled, died, because of lack of choice. We talked a lot about control. Control is really just having the right to chose. All these women had "value", NONE in my book should ever become "hungry ghost" because within them was a lot of love, and knowledge and wisdom. They just needed choice.

Message Edited by vivico1 on 09-15-2007 04:04 PM
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Fozzie
Posts: 2,404
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Re: Rituals of Death


vivico1 wrote:

Fozzie wrote:


I did not find myself caught up in feelings about the way women were treated. I take the time and place of a novel as a given, so to speak. Whether we modern people like it or not, that is the way things were. I found myself caught up in the emotions of the characters: Peony’s despair, Ren’s melancholy, Peony’s mother’s remorse, and Peony’s father’s almost indifference.




Fozzie, I find this very interesting. This is a novel, but how the women were treated was real. You could feel for the characters feelings (which is easy to do with even mythical creatures in novels and such) but you are through part II of the book and truely have had no feelings about the way women were treated, just because ...thats the way things were? I mean, there are great characters in this book that take you along with them but where they go is defined by how they were treated as women. You had no feelings about this? Not even the truth of the cataclysm?



I didn't say I had no feelings about how women were treated and what they were expected to do during the Cataclysm, I said I didn't get caught up in them. There is a big difference. To me, reading this book is about learning and understanding how things were in China 300 years ago. I cannot judge any of these characters with my 21st century views on the equality of men and women and the 21st century expectations of how relationships should be between men and women. Of course some things are surprising, and even shocking, but having read Lisa's Snow Flower and the Secret Fan, as well as The Good Earth, many of the attitudes about women were known to me. The Cataclysm is new, as are the death rituals. However, in trying to understand the society of the time, I find myself not comparing them to me, but comparing them to no one.
Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
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LisaSee
Posts: 139
Registered: ‎08-24-2007
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Re: Rituals of Death



Fozzie wrote:
I thought the idea of Peony meeting her grandmother and spending time on the Viewing Terrace was wonderful. I just realized, it reminds me a bit of A Christmas Carol when Ebenezer Scrooge views the past present and future.




I hadn't thought of that, but you're right.
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death



Fozzie wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Fozzie wrote:


I did not find myself caught up in feelings about the way women were treated. I take the time and place of a novel as a given, so to speak. Whether we modern people like it or not, that is the way things were. I found myself caught up in the emotions of the characters: Peony’s despair, Ren’s melancholy, Peony’s mother’s remorse, and Peony’s father’s almost indifference.




Fozzie, I find this very interesting. This is a novel, but how the women were treated was real. You could feel for the characters feelings (which is easy to do with even mythical creatures in novels and such) but you are through part II of the book and truely have had no feelings about the way women were treated, just because ...thats the way things were? I mean, there are great characters in this book that take you along with them but where they go is defined by how they were treated as women. You had no feelings about this? Not even the truth of the cataclysm?



I didn't say I had no feelings about how women were treated and what they were expected to do during the Cataclysm, I said I didn't get caught up in them. There is a big difference. To me, reading this book is about learning and understanding how things were in China 300 years ago. I cannot judge any of these characters with my 21st century views on the equality of men and women and the 21st century expectations of how relationships should be between men and women. Of course some things are surprising, and even shocking, but having read Lisa's Snow Flower and the Secret Fan, as well as The Good Earth, many of the attitudes about women were known to me. The Cataclysm is new, as are the death rituals. However, in trying to understand the society of the time, I find myself not comparing them to me, but comparing them to no one.




Laura, it seems to me that is why women for so many centuries lived as a lowlife or animal, because people would not get emotional about what wss being done to them. They like you, looked upon it as happening in other generations so why not let it happenn to me. I am so glad so many did not think like this. Because I know I would have lived a very short life if I had to take this crap. Before women and men made the same salary for doing the same job, I griped and campaigned for the same. Before women could work as long as they wre able while they were pregnant, I griped and *I campaigned. If we let things go, where is respect for the women ever going to go. I was venting about what happened in China back then, we need to vent out our past angers then do something about it. I am glad it affects me this way! So we can make progress toward being the respectful person we ought to always have been.
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Rachel-K
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death

I love how heated this discussion has grown, and how relevant to issues of our own time, but I DO hope we don't get critical of each other's reading styles. These response styles may be more a part of our temperments as readers, and not symptoms of our civic participation!

I also found I was much more accepting and openly curious about traditions that seemed so totally alien to me, and my emotional responses to the novel were, in many ways, more personal and sympathetic to the characters in their circumstances. For example, I was heartbroken at Peony's death, but as much as I was shocked and horrified at her "exposure," I was also saddened by the tragedy of the crossed up love story (which, I'm afraid, is not a very feminist response!)

As an aside, it is interesting that, as late as our own times, we still have such trouble coming to terms with the traditional work of women--do we see it as degrading? As a trap? Is it still a part of the "inner chamber?" How do we answer to how necessary those caretaking tasks are in daily life?
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vivico1
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Re: Rituals of Death

[ Edited ]

rkubie wrote:
I love how heated this discussion has grown, and how relevant to issues of our own time, but I DO hope we don't get critical of each other's reading styles. These response styles may be more a part of our temperments as readers, and not symptoms of our civic participation!

I also found I was much more accepting and openly curious about traditions that seemed so totally alien to me, and my emotional responses to the novel were, in many ways, more personal and sympathetic to the characters in their circumstances. For example, I was heartbroken at Peony's death, but as much as I was shocked and horrified at her "exposure," I was also saddened by the tragedy of the crossed up love story (which, I'm afraid, is not a very feminist response!)

As an aside, it is interesting that, as late as our own times, we still have such trouble coming to terms with the traditional work of women--do we see it as degrading? As a trap? Is it still a part of the "inner chamber?" How do we answer to how necessary those caretaking tasks are in daily life?


We are not having cat fights, don't worry. We have strong feelings about the book and the ideas and are sharing them, debating them. I think we all respect each other, we just dont all agree on things and its great that we are able to really run with our feelings, (unlike the women in Peony's time). Welcome to the bookclub btw, now that its the 17th. You may have some catching up to do but Lisa has been very great to us to not only answer questions but POST some for us to discuss.

Rkubie, with all do respect, this book is meant to evoke in us as readers our own "temperments" as readers, to think about hard things, different ideas, that we may not agree with, to discuss as women, how these things affect US as women, thats going to be heated but thats what makes a discussion on this book great, that we can. Of course these responses are part of our temperments as readers, we ARE readers. We have enjoyed being able as women to really get into it with one another, if this book makes you feel that way, then shouldnt we be able to discuss it that way in a bookclub? We all respect each other and are really grateful each and every one is here. Its truly amazing to see how we relate to each other , as women, about women in here. As for the "not symptoms of our civic participation", I am not even sure what you mean but I hope unlike Peony's time, we are not being told, dont discuss things too emotionally, or intellectually or even heatedly, or you are not "participating" in a civil way in B&N. Surely not!

Message Edited by vivico1 on 09-17-2007 11:14 AM
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: Rituals of Death


rkubie wrote:
I love how heated this discussion has grown, and how relevant to issues of our own time, but I DO hope we don't get critical of each other's reading styles. These response styles may be more a part of our temperments as readers, and not symptoms of our civic participation!



I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this but I don't think anyone was being critical at all. I know I didn't intend anything that way and I didn't see others as critical. As Vivico said, this book is about a sensitive subject and it brings out strong feelings. Peony lived in a time and place where women had little worth and challenging that was an uphill battle. This was a topic I knew very little about so I appreciate Lisa and her book and the discussions we've had. Thank goodness we've had strong women in our past that have enabled us to have our freedoms today.
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seagate
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death

"traditional work of women today--is it degrading-- a trap?"

Serving meals, driving the kids, cleanng the bathroom !!!! I don't see it as degrading nor a trap if done out of love. So many husbands share the duties with their wives today and if one is a single Mom or a single woman these traditional duties are carried out without a second thought along with the untraditional ones we are allowed in this generation. I think the problem too often is an individual's selfishness takes the form of " woman's rights". When one does any action out of love for another,it is never demeaning.
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vivico1
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Re: Rituals of Death


seagate wrote:
"traditional work of women today--is it degrading-- a trap?"

Serving meals, driving the kids, cleanng the bathroom !!!! I don't see it as degrading nor a trap if done out of love. So many husbands share the duties with their wives today and if one is a single Mom or a single woman these traditional duties are carried out without a second thought along with the untraditional ones we are allowed in this generation. I think the problem too often is an individual's selfishness takes the form of " woman's rights". When one does any action out of love for another,it is never demeaning.


I agree with you totally. Like I said before, its most often women who put down other women who chose to stay in the home (WORKING) instead of outside work. BOTH are work! I don't see these even as "traditional" duties, but just flat duties of life which have been "traditionally" done by women. One sec, I got to go back and find that original question because to say is it a trap or degrading, I find the question degrading. Let me see if I read it right, not your response Seagate, I agree with you.

Ok, this was the question, it seems I was so stuck on the stuff right before it, I didn't even response to this.

"As an aside, it is interesting that, as late as our own times, we still have such trouble coming to terms with the traditional work of women--do we see it as degrading? As a trap? Is it still a part of the "inner chamber?" How do we answer to how necessary those caretaking tasks are in daily life?"

Like I said, WHO has "trouble coming to terms with the 'traditional work of women'"??? I would underline or highlight that traditional work of women part but I dont know how you guys do that :smileywink: Anyway WHO in here is having trouble with this?? Man, don't include me or anyone I know in that "we still have trouble" part either. I can tell you tho, it isn't men who have a problem, its other women who would even ask such a thing. That is what we were saying before on one of the threads. Its like, men may DEFINE the roles of women in a society but in all actuality, its the women who ENFORCE the roles. Its why we can change them too. There is a whole discussion on here somewhere about women's roles in the home and out and not putting down Peony's mother for the important work she does as a mother in the home but also praise the women too who went out (like the writers) and tried to change things in their own way. Nothing a person of either gender, but as we are talking about women here, nothing a woman does that enriches, teaches, uplifts and shows love to another, be it children or husbands or mothers or friends, is EVER degrading. I know why I passed by this part of the question now. So suffice it to say, I agree with you Seagate and so I wont rehash this one again. I dont have trouble with work "traditionally done by women", I have a problem with women calling this "the traditional work of women". You may find this nit picking, but there is a big difference to me and to ask another woman, do we see this as degrading? NO, do you?? Ok,I will stop here, should have when I hadnt answered it but when I saw it again as you replied to so well Seagate, it got me going again. :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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seagate
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death

.When I read that part of the question I took it that the moderator was acting as the devil's advocate trying to stir up a little action.That is really a good way to get things rolling and doubt very much if she herself found women's role degrading today. As part of the older generation , though I find that through the extreme Women's Lib . we have lost a lot of dignity and respect. We are now equal to men? Heck I always considered myself a step above them! Why would we want to lower ourselves? Glad not too many guys are in on this discussion.
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vivico1
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Re: Rituals of Death


seagate wrote:
.When I read that part of the question I took it that the moderator was acting as the devil's advocate trying to stir up a little action.That is really a good way to get things rolling and doubt very much if she herself found women's role degrading today. As part of the older generation , though I find that through the extreme Women's Lib . we have lost a lot of dignity and respect. We are now equal to men? Heck I always considered myself a step above them! Why would we want to lower ourselves? Glad not too many guys are in on this discussion.


Yeah, I am sure she meant it as "just a question" but at the same time, we were practically admonished first in that post to not get too emotional, shall I say, to watch our "temperaments as readers". How much of a devil's advocate do you want to be and then tell us to watch our temperaments? Oh well, doesnt matter.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death


vivico1 wrote:

seagate wrote:
"traditional work of women today--is it degrading-- a trap?"

Serving meals, driving the kids, cleanng the bathroom !!!! I don't see it as degrading nor a trap if done out of love. So many husbands share the duties with their wives today and if one is a single Mom or a single woman these traditional duties are carried out without a second thought along with the untraditional ones we are allowed in this generation. I think the problem too often is an individual's selfishness takes the form of " woman's rights". When one does any action out of love for another,it is never demeaning.


I agree with you totally. Like I said before, its most often women who put down other women who chose to stay in the home (WORKING) instead of outside work. BOTH are work! I don't see these even as "traditional" duties, but just flat duties of life which have been "traditionally" done by women.

Again, I'm not exactly sure what the questions mean but I agree with the comments that were made. I don't find it degrading either because we share the tasks and they are appreciated. We don't have "traditional roles" in our house. We have chores and responsibilities and everyone contributes. When I compare that to my grandparents it's a world of difference. My grandmother still prepares all of the meals at a set time of day, among other things, and my grandfather usually called her "wife". They were definitely traditional and my grandmother continues even though she is widowed now. That's how it was done and that's what they knew. I do appreciate the women (and men) that came before me and enabled me to have the choice to take on the roles I wanted and that suited the needs for my family.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death



seagate wrote:
"traditional work of women today--is it degrading-- a trap?"

Serving meals, driving the kids, cleanng the bathroom !!!! I don't see it as degrading nor a trap if done out of love. So many husbands share the duties with their wives today and if one is a single Mom or a single woman these traditional duties are carried out without a second thought along with the untraditional ones we are allowed in this generation. I think the problem too often is an individual's selfishness takes the form of " woman's rights". When one does any action out of love for another,it is never demeaning.





This is true, love is a wonderful asset to have in your life today. But noone should let anyone disrepect you, that is, because a person will take advantage of gullability in someone that loves them. Women and men do this. So you have to know limits even when you love someone. And all husbands need to see housework as homework for all. When everyone is home, it should be everyone's duty not just Mom's even if she is home all day. men want bend unless you show them the neccessity of it. If someone is willing to work outside the home, bring home a paycheck, do all the cooking,washing and cleaning, you really think they will volunteerly help without encouragment. NO! I do not think so! A partnership should be that! Working together with all things. Not you do housework and I''s mow the grass once a week and clean the garage once a year. My daughter loves mowing the grass, so she does that, her husband sees the floor needs vacuuming, he does it. That is sharing. But most of the time a discussion needs to be had on the duties around the house. I love that we have reformed plenty of this tiresome subject. Men are responding more since women are finally making comparable salaries to men so they are bring home sometimes twice the bacon men sometimes do. This is another quirk that is being resolved but taking a slow pace. Now if we can get the remote away from them and get them desenified to watch a good love movie once in a while. I like baseball and football also. We just need to share and when we do, we learn to like what we do not know alot of.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Rituals of Death



seagate wrote:
.When I read that part of the question I took it that the moderator was acting as the devil's advocate trying to stir up a little action.That is really a good way to get things rolling and doubt very much if she herself found women's role degrading today. As part of the older generation , though I find that through the extreme Women's Lib . we have lost a lot of dignity and respect. We are now equal to men? Heck I always considered myself a step above them! Why would we want to lower ourselves? Glad not too many guys are in on this discussion.




Why Seagate; if men are in this discussion they would love it that you consider the women's lib a terrible mistake. The thing is, its very simple, freedom to do what you feel you can do. If you can work a job that a man can work, same amount of work, would you like to get a hundred dollars a week difference less than that man. I have done it for many years when I was younger. It was not fun, seeing two people do the same thing, same smarts and one gets more for being a male Doesn't that feel wrong?
And why can a man set limitations on a women who needs to work but becomes pregnant and then he demands she leave the job when she is 6mts pregnant. That happened to me when I was supporting one daughter alone and pregnant with another. And unemployment didnt pay that much. Welfare was really unheard of then unless you wanted to place your children in foster care if you couldnt take care of them. Is that fair? When I was able to work until I was 9 mts. Strenous exercise we have found is good while being pregnant but for goodness sakes I worked in a insurance office typing up polices in the back of the office. Some of us are able to physically do as men. If we like that sort of work, we need to have the freedom to do it. The Military needs to stay volunteer becaise of people's different ways of belief into this. So anyone who wants to service military men or women should serve. And if it has to become drafting as a statist then physical strength tests and others would have to be given. Men have advantages of women's libs rights also. They can take maturity leave, they can get child support. Alot of avantages are out there. And the only reason men donot like it, is because they have to give up alittle of that reigning as a king that has domaining power over women whether right or wrong in others eyes. That is what makes commonist and dicttatorships possible. Having control over others are and can be a man's downfall.
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