Discussion Week 1: Reading and Emotion [ Edited ]

[IlanaSimons]

One question I’m thinking about this week is whether the best books accurately map emotions. Some people would answer no—that fiction’s not just supposed to map emotion.

The wonderful novelist Vikram Chandra recently said that the history of the novel is much bigger than the stage of it we’re now living: Today, we just happen to love novels that focus on our feelings. Chandra reminds us that old epic dramas focused on virtue, not emotion per se; detective stories pivot on plot more than on intimate relationships.

What do you think: What type of fiction are you drawn to? If you do have a sweet spot for books that map the heart, what books do this well for you?

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 06-01-200710:50 AM

[Choisya]

I think that books today still focus on virtue, even though they might be dealing with very 'unvirtuous' things, like murder, adultery etc. Most end happily and virtuously. Perhaps we focus more on emotion because, post-Freud, there has been so much more analysis of it and we are better able (or more willing?) to delve into the psyche's of characters than were the ancients?

I am drawn to books with serious underlying themes of politics and social history. I do not like 'light' books, not even when I am on holiday. At the end of a book, non-fiction or fiction, I like to feel I have learned something, that it has contributed to my life in some way.

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IlanaSimons wrote:
One question I’m thinking about this week is whether the best books accurately map emotions. Some people would answer no—that fiction’s not just supposed to map emotion.

The wonderful novelist Vikram Chandra recently said that the history of the novel is much bigger than the stage of it we’re now living: Today, we just happen to love novels that focus on our feelings. Chandra reminds us that old epic dramas focused on virtue, not emotion per se; detective stories pivot on plot more than on intimate relationships.

What do you think: What type of fiction are you drawn to? If you do have a sweet spot for books that map the heart, what books do this well for you?

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 05-24-200704:06 PM

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[IlanaSimons]

There's so much interesting stuff in your post, Choisya.
for one: A public loves happy endings. you're so right. how true.
2: I agree (if this is part of what you're saying) that the best books combine the virtuous and the un-virtuous, so that they deepen our idea of how those two things relate.

I really like an article by a guy Lawrence Lipking, who said that the best thing about Mary Shelley's novel Frankenstein was that it stretches our notion of "good" and "bad." When Frankenstein creates his monster, he has good intentions: to be creative with his intelligence. But Frankenstein’s “art” ends up causing harm: His monster kills people--causes chaos. Lipking says that the novel is great because it asks us to see how good intentions can lead to bad outcomes: It forces us to think in the grays rather than the black and white. The virtuous, Lipking says, doesn't always pay us back in the ways we expect. That is: Good books ask us to make our morality more empathetic.

You're also saying some neat things about Freud. Do you think we're in an age that loves psychology more than philosophy?

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Choisya wrote:
I think that books today still focus on virtue, even though they might be dealing with very 'unvirtuous' things, like murder, adultery etc. Most end happily and virtuously. Perhaps we focus more on emotion because, post-Freud, there has been so much more analysis of it and we are better able (or more willing?) to delve into the psyche's of characters than were the ancients?

I am drawn to books with serious underlying themes of politics and social history. I do not like 'light' books, not even when I am on holiday. At the end of a book, non-fiction or fiction, I like to feel I have learned something, that it has contributed to my life in some way.

---

IlanaSimons wrote:
One question I’m thinking about this week is whether the best books accurately map emotions. Some people would answer no—that fiction’s not just supposed to map emotion.

The wonderful novelist Vikram Chandra recently said that the history of the novel is much bigger than the stage of it we’re now living: Today, we just happen to love novels that focus on our feelings. Chandra reminds us that old epic dramas focused on virtue, not emotion per se; detective stories pivot on plot more than on intimate relationships.

What do you think: What type of fiction are you drawn to? If you do have a sweet spot for books that map the heart, what books do this well for you?

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 05-24-200704:06 PM

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[Choisya]

Thanks Ilana. Re (2) I agree that the best books combine the virtuous and the un-virtuous because they then reflect life. The ancients and religious writers enjoin us to live a life of 'virtue' and lay down rules for doing so. Happiness is equated with virtue. But as with 'Who guards the guardians?', who says what is virtuous or what happiness is? IMO life is full of grays not blacks and whites.

I believe that schools in America are now teaching children how to be happy and educationalists here are beginning to copy that idea. I am very wary of the 'pursuit of happiness', or the pursuit of virtuousness, because IMO pursuing such goals can lead us to be intolerant of what other people think is 'happy' or 'virtuous'. Too much conflict has already been caused in the world by trying to impose our way of life upon others. So I agree with Lipking - good books should teach us how to be more empathetic.

Psychoanalysing does seem to have taken over from philosophising and perhaps reflects our modern preoccupation with the individual instead of the community. I would welcome a return to philosophising but not the 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' kind of philosophy, nor the reiteration of the philosophy of the ancients. Thinking deeply about how our actions affect the wider world rather than about our individual happiness might be a start. Books which makes us think, even disturb us, can help with that IMO.

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IlanaSimons wrote:
There's so much interesting stuff in your post, Choisya.
for one: A public loves happy endings. you're so right. how true.
2: I agree (if this is part of what you're saying) that the best books combine the virtuous and the un-virtuous, so that they deepen our idea of how those two things relate.

I really like an article by a guy Lawrence Lipking, who said that the best thing about Mary Shelley's novel Frankenstein was that it stretches our notion of "good" and "bad." When Frankenstein creates his monster, he has good intentions: to be creative with his intelligence. But Frankenstein’s “art” ends up causing harm: His monster kills people--causes chaos. Lipking says that the novel is great because it asks us to see how good intentions can lead to bad outcomes: It forces us to think in the grays rather than the black and white. The virtuous, Lipking says, doesn't always pay us back in the ways we expect. That is: Good books ask us to make our morality more empathetic.

You're also saying some neat things about Freud. Do you think we're in an age that loves psychology more than philosophy?

---

Choisya wrote:
I think that books today still focus on virtue, even though they might be dealing with very 'unvirtuous' things, like murder, adultery etc. Most end happily and virtuously. Perhaps we focus more on emotion because, post-Freud, there has been so much more analysis of it and we are better able (or more willing?) to delve into the psyche's of characters than were the ancients?

I am drawn to books with serious underlying themes of politics and social history. I do not like 'light' books, not even when I am on holiday. At the end of a book, non-fiction or fiction, I like to feel I have learned something, that it has contributed to my life in some way.

---

IlanaSimons wrote:
One question I’m thinking about this week is whether the best books accurately map emotions. Some people would answer no—that fiction’s not just supposed to map emotion.

The wonderful novelist Vikram Chandra recently said that the history of the novel is much bigger than the stage of it we’re now living: Today, we just happen to love novels that focus on our feelings. Chandra reminds us that old epic dramas focused on virtue, not emotion per se; detective stories pivot on plot more than on intimate relationships.

What do you think: What type of fiction are you drawn to? If you do have a sweet spot for books that map the heart, what books do this well for you?

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 05-24-200704:06 PM

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Message Edited by Choisya on 05-26-200703:49 AM

[IlanaSimons]

Choisya--Another slam-dunk post!
I'm interested in your idea that the pursuit of happiness can make us less tolerant. That seems insightful. Some forms of consumption-based happiness (buying luxuries to excess, etc..) gives us blinders: We think our actions are innocent ("I'm just treating myself, being kind to myself..." ) but we become desensitized to the harm we're causing others.

More about psychology: I just read a good article in The New Yorker about Abe Lincoln (by Adam Gopnik, in this last issue), in which Gopnik says we're psychologizing everything--including assassinations--today. He writes, "One of the odd things in American history is that we are inclined to 'psychologize' acts of assassination that, whatever dark corner of the psyche they are torn from, are clearly and explicitly political in motive. Oswald shot Kennedy in an act of terrorism on behalf of Castro; Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy because he believed him to be pro-Israel; Booth killed Lincoln because Booth was a violent racist who thought that Lincoln would enfranchise blacks, and that if he was dead this would be less likely to happen—as, indeed, it turned out to be."

Interesting, right? We can look at things from the psychological, political, philosophical, legal, biological, or physics-based lens, right? Maybe we're in love with the psychological lens these days.

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Choisya wrote:
Thanks Ilana. Re (2) I agree that the best books combine the virtuous and the un-virtuous because they then reflect life. The ancients and religious writers enjoin us to live a life of 'virtue' and lay down rules for doing so. Happiness is equated with virtue. But as with 'Who guards the guardians?', who says what is virtuous or what happiness is? IMO life is full of grays not blacks and whites.

I believe that schools in America are now teaching children how to be happy and educationalists here are beginning to copy that idea. I am very wary of the 'pursuit of happiness', or the pursuit of virtuousness, because IMO pursuing such goals can lead us to be intolerant of what other people think is 'happy' or 'virtuous'. Too much conflict has already been caused in the world by trying to impose our way of life upon others. So I agree with Lipking - good books should teach us how to be more empathetic.

Psychoanalysing does seem to have taken over from philosophising and perhaps reflects our modern preoccupation with the individual instead of the community. I would welcome a return to philosophising but not the 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' kind of philosophy, nor the reiteration of the philosophy of the ancients. Thinking deeply about how our actions affect the wider world rather than about our individual happiness might be a start. Books which makes us think, even disturb us, can help with that IMO.

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 05-26-200709:19 AM

[Nelsmom]

Ilana,

Yes I think that sometimes we can be very selfish in our pursuit of happiness. I find personely when I am happiest is when I can help those that need the help. I do a lot of Home Health Care and volunterring with Special Needs groups and when I see the smiles on their faces it makes me the happiest. They especially like to be read to. I have one group that is really into mysteries and seeing if they can guess who did it first.

Toni

[Everyman]

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IlanaSimons wrote:
Choisya--Another slam-dunk post!
I'm interested in your idea that the pursuit of happiness can make us less tolerant.

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Isn't that really a question of how we define happiness? I agree that many (most?) people today would define happiness in individualistic terms -- my happiness is what counts.

Perhaps one reason the divorce rate is so high is that not enough married people agree with the concept that "love is that concept which exists when another person's happiness is essential to your own."

But I go further back, as I think I mentioned in another post, to the concept of happiness held by the Greeks that happiness means living a virtuous life, and the Roman corollary that happiness is measured not by the individual's sense of being happy but by commitment to the good of the state or society at large.

We have abandoned these senses of happiness -- perhaps to our peril as a nation and a people.

[Choisya]

...the Roman corollary that happiness is measured not by the individual's sense of being happy but by commitment to the good of the state or society at large.

We have abandoned these senses of happiness -- perhaps to our peril as a nation and a people.

I very much agree with the Roman concept and concur that the abandonment of it could have dire consequences.

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Everyman wrote:

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IlanaSimons wrote:
Choisya--Another slam-dunk post!
I'm interested in your idea that the pursuit of happiness can make us less tolerant.

---

Isn't that really a question of how we define happiness? I agree that many (most?) people today would define happiness in individualistic terms -- my happiness is what counts.

Perhaps one reason the divorce rate is so high is that not enough married people agree with the concept that "love is that concept which exists when another person's happiness is essential to your own."

But I go further back, as I think I mentioned in another post, to the concept of happiness held by the Greeks that happiness means living a virtuous life, and the Roman corollary that happiness is measured not by the individual's sense of being happy but by commitment to the good of the state or society at large.

We have abandoned these senses of happiness -- perhaps to our peril as a nation and a people.

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Message Edited by Choisya on 05-26-200702:08 PM

[KathyS]

Ilana,
You've entered into an interesting, and deeply personal/felt concept, of why and what we read, and how it affects each of us. Many aspects of novels are only revealed to the individual reader. I think we all agree on that point. We all come from varied and different backgrounds, introducing different experiences into our reading, which add to our enjoyment of these novels. What makes me happy, may not make someone else; what makes me sad, may not make someone else. And what are these basic concepts?

My reading takes on many types and descriptions. Who I am may be a reflection of a total culmination of many authors from which I draw my emotions. Or I may be simply searching out these emotions to validate those already exisiting within me.

As in the *real* world, with real people, with real feelings, the deepness of these emotions of each and every human is right there in front of you; and then certain writings within a novel, strick me with emotions I've never thought possible. But emotions, which occur within a novel, that may not always occur in our *real life* situations, cause you to realize they do exist. In that same breath, you've been made aware that these emotions are humanly possible - And maybe, then, added another dimension to our existance.

One author I truly love is, Silas House. A Parchment of Leaves was so lyrically written, I could visualize and feel, (a tactile feeling), his characters within his words. An old novel, by Richard Llewellyn, How Green Was My Valley, again spoke to me with music. (I tend to, on a personal note, be drawn to music). Lisa Tucker wrote a novel, The Song Reader. Not the words themselves this time, but the subject matter she spoke of, hit a deep and personal note inside of me. And in saying this, what may touch me, may not touch someone else.

If novels have depth, meaning, taking us outside of our norm, they can transport feelings, interests, ideas....and spark something you've never imagained could happen. I search these writing that circulate creative thoughts within my brain, and make me go beyond my ordinary,...interests and feelings which I may hope to explore and maybe achieve. Stretching the imagination is what I look for, within those hard-outside edges of a novel.

Kathy S

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-26-200706:27 PM

[IlanaSimons]

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KathyS wrote:
...and then certain writings within a novel, strike me with emotions I've never thought possible. But emotions which occur within a novel that may not always occur in our *real life* situations, cause you to realize they do exist.

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oh yeah! That nails what I was trying to say in the "Week 1: Emotions" post: A novel can make me feel the delicious contradictions of an emotion that I might suppress if trying to look happy or predictable for a partner. Case in point: I had a heated argument at dinner with a friend last night and...as we yelled, I enjoyed his crazy energy. Inconsistencies like this aren't "supposed" to happen. But they do, and novels satisfy me (a lot) when they accurately trace our irrationalities or passions.

[KathyS]

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IlanaSimons wrote:

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KathyS wrote:
...and then certain writings within a novel, strike me with emotions I've never thought possible. But emotions which occur within a novel that may not always occur in our *real life* situations, cause you to realize they do exist.

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oh yeah! That nails what I was trying to say in the "Week 1: Emotions" post: A novel can make me feel the delicious contradictions of an emotion that I might suppress if trying to look happy or predictable for a partner. Case in point: I had a heated argument at dinner with a friend last night and...as we yelled, I enjoyed his crazy energy. Inconsistencies like this aren't "supposed" to happen. But they do, and novels satisfy me (a lot) when they accurately trace our irrationalities or passions.

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You talk about suppressed emotions...I don't want to get too far into the psychology of emotions, especially here, unless you want me to, but when we all *try* for those right thoughts, or right emotions, or the right thing to say, because of the "trying", these contraditions always happen. You said you "enjoyed his crazy energy"....was this calculated? :-) It *will* always happen when an honest discussion goes in the direction of trying to please....or staying in the range of gray! :-)). Yes, novels can inspire, and they can show us a path....but transferences of the rational, the logical, or the inspirational into the real world, it is sometimes the most difficult area to traverse, unless honesty is brought into the picture! ;-) Stay honest, and believe in what you believe.

[Wildflower]

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KathyS wrote:
(I tend to, on a personal note, be drawn to music). Lisa Tucker wrote a novel, The Song Reader. Not the words themselves this time, but the subject matter she spoke of, hit a deep and personal note inside of me.

Kathy S

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-26-200706:27 PM

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I too have been very drawn to music since probably birth and so I looked this book up on B&N.com. It looks interesting. I think I will check it out next time I am in the store. Thanks for this recommendation.
Sue

[KathyS]

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Nelsmom wrote:
Ilana,

Yes I think that sometimes we can be very selfish in our pursuit of happiness. I find personely when I am happiest is when I can help those that need the help. I do a lot of Home Health Care and volunterring with Special Needs groups and when I see the smiles on their faces it makes me the happiest. They especially like to be read to. I have one group that is really into mysteries and seeing if they can guess who did it first.

Toni

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Good thoughts...I see that it's not the persuit of *our* happiness that is important in todays world, it seeing beyond that, into the happiness of others. The wanting to help others, which our nation seems to be ***** bent for, has come back to us, and we've lost sight of what we were originally taught to view, which was to love one another.

Taking this discussion off of the subject slightly, but in turn, assuming we all want to learn from what we read, whether fiction, or non fiction. I, my self, hope to see the rights given to everyone, and the injustices that occur taken away. We, of course, don't need a novel to show us this, we have the daily news, but we observe a more closer view into an individual, and a nation - with their hurts, their loves, their needs, their wants, it all hits home...seeing it on a deeper level, more personal points of view when reading it within these novels....not just sadness, but we see the devastation that results, within families and nations. The educational system, the teachers of today, and the writers of these novels, are the greatest resource to educate all of us. The ability to read, in my own personal opinion, is just one of the greatest gifts we could ever receive....besides love.

Kathy S.

[KathyS]

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Wildflower wrote:

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KathyS wrote:
(I tend to, on a personal note, be drawn to music). Lisa Tucker wrote a novel, The Song Reader. Not the words themselves this time, but the subject matter she spoke of, hit a deep and personal note inside of me.

Kathy S

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-26-200706:27 PM

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I too have been very drawn to music since probably birth and so I looked this book up on B&N.com. It looks interesting. I think I will check it out next time I am in the store. Thanks for this recommendation.
Sue

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Sue,
I never recommend books/stories to people I don't know. I only give my own perspective on how novels affect me. But I do recommend writers. I've been involved in music most of my life, it's just a part of who I am. But when I read Lisa Tucker's novels, I see that she gives a personal perspective to her writing, as authors tend to do, but with music being a special interest to her, you see it come through. I've read this novel, The Song Reader, and her unrealted, Once Upon A Day, and I'm looking forward to her next novel. Her writing is exceptional.
Kathy S.

[KathyS]

More thoughts----

I had mentioned the novel by Lisa Tucker, The Song Reader, which reminded me of the effects of lyrics on our emotions, or vice versa if you're expressing yourself as a writer of lyrics or poetry, or even literature.

I play the piano, and for me, this is just one other way to read another's words, and express them into my own emotions. Not just the physicalness of playing, as in dance interpretation, but the actual reading and internalizing of those words to interpret my mood. It's all very complicated and "emotional" in how we each see, and try to interpret these words, and acting them out, as it were.

In music, as in reading novels, we sometimes pick up sheet music/books which echo our feelings at that moment, and play them out until we're spent. Then at other times we choose something that will draw us away from those feelings, to help re-create emotions that we would like, or need to feel at that time.

Lyricists write of every emotion, in every genre and style imaginable. If you're not a musician, you then listen to these emotions in the lyrics and music, as you would an audio book.

In the novel, The Song Reader, these questions are raised. Do we listen to these words because we subconsciously need to feel them, or do we feel these words first, using them to validate our emotions? And how do you interpret those feelings?

I'm also an artist, and as most artists will ponder - Does life imitate art, or is it art that imitates life?

I honestly don't think that most of us have a realization of why we read the books we read, or listen to the music we do. The answer is usually simply said - It's because I like it. I've really never discussed this topic before, have you? ;-)

Kathy S.

[LizzieAnn]

Well said!

I will add happiness means different things to everyone, and reading is something that makes me happy!

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KathyS wrote:

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Nelsmom wrote:
Ilana,

Yes I think that sometimes we can be very selfish in our pursuit of happiness. I find personely when I am happiest is when I can help those that need the help. I do a lot of Home Health Care and volunterring with Special Needs groups and when I see the smiles on their faces it makes me the happiest. They especially like to be read to. I have one group that is really into mysteries and seeing if they can guess who did it first.

Toni

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Good thoughts...I see that it's not the persuit of *our* happiness that is important in todays world, it seeing beyond that, into the happiness of others. The wanting to help others, which our nation seems to be ***** bent for, has come back to us, and we've lost sight of what we were originally taught to view, which was to love one another.

Taking this discussion off of the subject slightly, but in turn, assuming we all want to learn from what we read, whether fiction, or non fiction. I, my self, hope to see the rights given to everyone, and the injustices that occur taken away. We, of course, don't need a novel to show us this, we have the daily news, but we observe a more closer view into an individual, and a nation - with their hurts, their loves, their needs, their wants, it all hits home...seeing it on a deeper level, more personal points of view when reading it within these novels....not just sadness, but we see the devastation that results, within families and nations. The educational system, the teachers of today, and the writers of these novels, are the greatest resource to educate all of us. The ability to read, in my own personal opinion, is just one of the greatest gifts we could ever receive....besides love.

Kathy S.

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[KathyS]

Liz, Hi! You've found me! I hope you keep reading, because I want you to be happy! LOL

Kathy S.

[LizzieAnn]

Thank you! I do - in fact I read 3 books this past weekend!!!

You keep hearing the music in literature!

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KathyS wrote:
Liz, Hi! You've found me! I hope you keep reading, because I want you to be happy! LOL

Kathy S.

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[KathyS]

Three books! I'm constantly amazed!
Believe it, Liz, there is always magic in the music! ;-) Now, if B&N would 'grace' me with little happy faces, I'd be happy too! LOL
Kathy

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LizzieAnn wrote:
Thank you! I do - in fact I read 3 books this past weekend!!!

You keep hearing the music in literature!

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KathyS wrote:
Liz, Hi! You've found me! I hope you keep reading, because I want you to be happy! LOL

Kathy S.

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[Nelsmom]

KathyS

I know that a lot of Science Fiction/Fantasy authors are also musicians or have close ties with musicians and so it gets incorperated with their books. Two that I especially like are Mercedes Lackey and Steven Burst. But Elizabeth Scarborough does alot too. I just read Carrie Vaughn's books where she gives you her play list of music if you want to listen.

Toni